actualy if both are true (I suspect they are) then thats enough to put it up there.ANT menaces with reaching DtB status in its very first month.
The deck will break legacy in half, It will just be a while before people admit it.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
I'm not certain it's "that" bad, half of the reason I've been winning games with Ad Nauseam is that control and aggro-control's 1cc disruption is no longer a significant factor. If people start replacing Stifle and Spellsnare with Thoughtseize and Duress or SBing anti-Storm combo bullets, the match up could turn around.Originally Posted by undone
Right now, Landstill, Dreadstill and Threshold just don't seem to be prepared for the new Storm combo decks. Clearly Ad nauseam has lived up to its hype, but I think we should give the Force of Will crowd a little more time before we jump on the ban hammer. Once they adjust, Ad Nauseam wont be as ridiculous
First with ANT today at a 37 peoples tournament.
Five 32+ peoples tournaments with FT/DDFT/ANT this year and 4 top8.
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. - Neuromancer
With regard to the Merchant Scrolls and Mox Diamonds- don't get carried away over weird choices in successful lists at this stage. Ad Nauseum decks are new to the metagame, unexpected and even suboptimal ones are going to do well at this stage.
Given all of the Top 8's in 33+ player tournaments, can this deck be moven to at least Proven yet? We're already at 5 Top 8's in 33+ tournaments, right?
Seems like if the above are true we have 8 (right 8?) most of which were wins. The card will be banned I think but thats just me.
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
@Everybody
Hello everybody, I've finally got the entire cards of the deck ANT (quite difficult to get LED ) and definatly tested it , ill post the list
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [MI] Island
// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 Duresses
1 [PS] Wipe Away
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
Well the list is quite close to the design of Hanni well I find the next troubles :
First when we get to play A.N We HAVE to find between the cards drawn :
a) the conjuntion of I.T with LED
b) at least 2 blue mana sources AND 1 mystical AND 1 Brainstorm and Black Mana producers
Well I find that I.T is useless when you dont have LED in hand when you have drawn it with A.N, because mainly for sure at least we have drawn 2 land and one of them we won't be able to put it in play.
Playing versions withouth LED ( my conclusions were that LED belongs to the deck when I tested it ) and whith Mox diamond demonstrated me that I was been able to cast all the cards I' ve drawn with A.N becuase M.Diamond allow us to get rid of land drops.
Therefore my conclusions is all about point a) I mean to have less dependency of the conjuntion of LED and IT and to make the I.T an authentical Demonic tutor because we won't have lands in hand , well this issue is logicly jandled by the inclusion of Mos Diamond in the main deck.
I like the package of 9 defense spells, and I really think that the others spells also belongs to the deck, but I'd like to test the inclusion of M.Diamond because it really makes the puzzle to an A.N casted because of the reduced dependency of the spells.
maybe -2 duresses, -1 wipe away, - 1 cabal ritual could solve te problem , but I'm yet testing,
A card I've been testing in the side and I find huge huge potential is Boseiju , who selter all , full set of them , in order to get an A.N uncountereable ( we won't mind c.b, and FoWs just to get the conjunction of these 2 cards)
Another point is the I'd like to know how do you side versus
a) 3shold ,
b ) Landstill,
c) c.b decks like It's the fear.
Ideas ,suggestions ,onions?
No onions from me, sorry :)
I can understand your post-AdN troubles. Sure it draws you a ton of cards, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you'll find what you need to win before you run out of life. I think a lot of people don't understand this part quite yet - that you still have to work for your win.
The thing about ANT in particular is that the average CC is much lower than a deck like TES, so you'll generally draw more cards off of an AdN. However, yes, you do need to have UU with Mystical+a way to draw or IT with LED/IGG. Some more points:
-The deck hurts without LED. Without LED, using IGG loop is much harder and you'll be giving up a lot of subtle synergies and interactions that can often times pull out wins.
-The deck in its current state seems to have a tug-o-war between safe and speed. Some people want to run more protection, but then miss out on cards like Ponder or SDT. Other want to run the full protection suite, but then complain that they have problems after casting Ad Nauseum. Honestly, the amount of times that I DIDN'T have the LED or Mystical+Brainstorm/Ponder was very rare, so I do prefer to run the full protection suite.
-The problem with Boseiju is that there's no real way to search for it, unless you want to run 4. CB is always a problem, yes, but Wipe Away does well to counter it.
-Against CB decks you just want to board in your bounce (probably just Wipe Away). Landstill *shouldn't* be a hard matchup, especially if you're running 9 MD protection spells. Out of their board you'll probably only see Meddling Mage .
I actually haven't tested the Mox Diamonds, but for some reason I still get the feeling that they're sounding better on paper than in practice. I'll give it a shot sometime this week and see if I like it, though I've already been drifting towards TES more after playing both decks for quite a bit.
IGG loop can be done with double Cabal Ritual as well. Meh, IGGy Pop nostalgia... Though this deck doesn't run Intuition to fuel it's graveyard.
Ponder and SDT actually make the deck slower, in exchange you gain cardquality which allows you to optimize your hand. But this makes the matchup against Aggrocontrol harder as they will have enough time to drop Counterbalance. I'd prefer raping your opponent's hand with Duress.-The deck in its current state seems to have a tug-o-war between safe and speed. Some people want to run more protection, but then miss out on cards like Ponder or SDT. Other want to run the full protection suite, but then complain that they have problems after casting Ad Nauseum. Honestly, the amount of times that I DIDN'T have the LED or Mystical+Brainstorm/Ponder was very rare, so I do prefer to run the full protection suite.
Orim's Chant is also a must-counter by itself. That card is so retarded. It baits counters to ensure you win and if it resolves you will win, too.
Boseiju is a very oldschoolish card, lol. But there are at least 3 things that suck like hell:-The problem with Boseiju is that there's no real way to search for it, unless you want to run 4. CB is always a problem, yes, but Wipe Away does well to counter it.
- It comes into play tapped, extremely vulnerable to Wastelands
- It is legendary, running 4 of it would be... design fail?
- Costs life to spwan mana, even if you only want to cast business spells.
Absolutely. But beware of Extirpates as well.-Against CB decks you just want to board in your bounce (probably just Wipe Away). Landstill *shouldn't* be a hard matchup, especially if you're running 9 MD protection spells. Out of their board you'll probably only see Meddling Mage .
I don't have any experience with ANT yet, I can only speak from what I learned about this deck back then when I was playing Mike Bomholt's IGGy Pop.I actually haven't tested the Mox Diamonds, but for some reason I still get the feeling that they're sounding better on paper than in practice. I'll give it a shot sometime this week and see if I like it, though I've already been drifting towards TES more after playing both decks for quite a bit.
I was told that a lot of ANT players play Mox Diamonds over LEDs and Pact of Negation instead of Orim's Chant. I guess they are more speed-oriented to win BEFORE the aggrocontrol player can resolve Counterbalance.
This, however, sounds terrible to me since you have to go off with protection against aggrocontrol anyway. Has anyone any experience with a list with Moxen and Pacts?
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
Well this is my list without LED for reference, anyway at Starcitygames you'll find a forum called The Definitive Ad Nauseam deck made by me too
1x Swamp
1x Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
Mana Accel: 26
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Mox diamond
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Pact of negation
4x Duresses
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Mystical Tutor
1x Chain of Vapor
1 x Hurkills R
1x Tendrils
4 x Ad Nauseam
God, we hate deck list spam. Talk about your choices and reasoning. Explain some matches. Give us something to discuss.
-PR
Just to comment on a few things:
I'll start off with something small first. I've decided that a 3/1 split of Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate in the board is better than just 4 Crypt's, since Extirpate can be grabbed with Mystical Tutor against decks like Ichorid and MUC.
---
Next, I'd like to comment on my opinions about Ponder. The thing I don't like about Ponder is that it increases consistency of turn 2 and 3 wins, but takes away consistency of protected turn 2 wins. It does increase manabase stability with Chrome Mox, especially when the deck needs to Mystical+cantrip into Tendrils post AN.
However, I don't really like Ponder. It doesn't improve the matchups against hate/FoW more than Orim's Chant does, and it doesn't quicken the speed of the deck any either. I've never found consistency to be lacking enough to warrant 4 Ponder.
However, I do think that Sensei's Divining Top would be the best go to if you wanted an increased consistency card. It's slower than Ponder and more mana hungry, but it gives the deck superior dig with the fetchlands for answers to problems that take more than a few turns to answer (i.e bounce for Chalice/Counterbalance, for example). The fact that it increases consistency post AN by making the Mystical+cantrip (Top in this case) plan to only cost 1U instead of UU is huge.
If I were going to run Top, I'd only run 2. That allows you to still run 2 Orim's Chant, giving the deck 6 protection spells. With Mystical Tutor -> Chant, the deck still maintains the ability to play a protected IGG chain, against something like burn.
However, I'd much rather run 4 Orim's Chant and 0 Top's. I've been trying to figure out how to improve my B/u/w ANT version for the last couple of weeks and I can't seem to find any further innovation. I'd honestly say that right now (barring new sets with new cards), the deck is pretty much optimized, +- 1 or 2 cards (mostly metagaming spots).
I'm going to PM a mod and see if they'll move this to established.
Last edited by Hanni; 10-21-2008 at 01:20 AM.
Why are you running graveyard hate at all? Extirpate in storm combo isn't to hate on the graveyard, but to guarantee that problematic cards aren't available to an opponent (either in their hand or in their yard). It deals with stuff like Force of Will, Orim's Chant, etc. You don't need graveyard hate because with Duress/Chant/Mystical Tutor (for 1-2 Extirpate) you have infinite time against decks that attempt to abuse the graveyard. SW FT, which this deck is a very direct evolution of, went something like 75/25 with Ichorid using this exact strategy. You Chant them in response to Narcomoeba triggers once they have relevant stuff in their yard (like therapy so it doesn't wreck you). You Duress away draw spells and LEDs to make them dog slow. You win turn 2. It's really simple.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Because I haven't done enough testing (graveyard hate decks specifically), to determine whether or not the deck needs it. In regards to Extirpate, I say that it sucks as any more of a 1-of because:Why are you running graveyard hate at all? Extirpate in storm combo isn't to hate on the graveyard, but to guarantee that problematic cards aren't available to an opponent (either in their hand or in their yard). It deals with stuff like Force of Will, Orim's Chant, etc. You don't need graveyard hate because with Duress/Chant/Mystical Tutor (for 1-2 Extirpate) you have infinite time against decks that attempt to abuse the graveyard. SW FT, which this deck is a very direct evolution of, went something like 75/25 with Ichorid using this exact strategy. You Chant them in response to Narcomoeba triggers once they have relevant stuff in their yard (like therapy so it doesn't wreck you). You Duress away draw spells and LEDs to make them dog slow. You win turn 2. It's really simple.
Extirpate effects multiple copies of a certain card. Barring strong luck, most cards aren't seen in multiples fast enough. With ANT, I'm never going to see multiples before it matters. Even if I do, multiple protection spells answers that. Extirpate is intended for a long game, ANT (as well as other combo), doesn't want that. I won't discuss Extirpate anymore here, because there is an entire thread for that, but more than 1? Retarded, IMO. I just wanted to beat Ichorid, which 3/1 Crypt/Extirpate does just fine. Maybe I'm wasting 3 sideboard slots, that's very possible... if I am, what should replace it?
Yes, you waste your slot for Crypt. Before the last tournament I used 3 Crypt in SB, then I did some intensive testing against Ichorid piloted from my friend did top8 last week with ANT and we saw that the deck can win anyway thanks to fast start or to Orim, so I replaced these 3 slots with more solution against CB. Obviusly in g2 you cut slow cards like Sensei.
Extirpate isn't so good in this mathcup. If you have it in hand, ok you play it, but usually if you have Mystical in hand you prefer to search the pieces for the combo instead of Extirpate. Lastly, side in Extirpate against slow decks like Landstill I see that it's no good like in the old SW FT. This because we have so many cards to side in against this deck (more protection, an alternative win, bouncer or removal for Mages and Halo,...) and not so many cards to side out.
About Ponder vs more protection, I use Ponder + Sensei, but this don't mean this is the definitive list. You can choose to use 8 protections if you really need them or you can increase the consistency of your deck with the use of Ponder + Sensei. I don't think there is a better decklist, but the better decklist for a particular metagame. Next time perhaps I use Duress or I continue to use Sensei + Ponder. Anyway, if my meta is full of Landstill, Sensei is better than Duress.
This is the list I played sunday. They did a mistake: I didn't use Rebuild maindeck.
The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel. - Neuromancer
Well I need to know which is the definitive and stablished manabase for the deck , as well the sideboard in order to face a meta with :
a) 3hold,
b) landstill,
c) decks with c.b,
d) Dreadstill,
e) U/W confidant
f) Ichorid
g) Loam with chalices
h) archetypes with magus, trinisphere, chalice
- which cards will you put in ?
- which cards will you take out ?
Thanks
For the mana base I would run 8 fetches. Which fetches? Depends on what you're packing, but it's probably a safe bet to just run 4 Flooded Strand and 4 Polluted Delta. I personally prefer jegger's mana base because he runs 3 basics (2 Islands and 1 Swamp) in order to better combat Dragon Stompy. Here's what it looks like in whole:
4x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Underground Sea
1x Tundra
1x Scrubland
Total: 14
I have a lack of experience SBing with this deck (I'm not even sure what my own SB looks like yet), so bear with me as I outline the choices --
-Threshold: should be an even matchup depending on how much disruption he draws. Just make sure you have the 7-8 Orim's / Duress.
-Landstill: same, but you probably want to board in some sort of bounce to deal with Meddling Mage. Watch out for extirpate.
-Counterbalance: Bring in your Wipe Aways.
-U/W Confidant?: is this like fish? Probably just have your Orims and Duresses, maybe bounce to deal with Meddling Mage.
-Ichorid: no need to side. Just win faster. Chanting on their upkeep is also a good play to stop them from going nuts.
-Chalice decks: one of our biggest fears. People have Hurkyl's Recall, Rebuild, Serenity, and Wipe Away (as well as 1 Plains in the board for Serenity).
-Dreadstill: another hard matchup. I would bring in the bounce and hope for the best.
So as a review, cards you probably want to include:
-Wipe Away
-Hurkyl's Recall
-Rebuild
-Rushing River
-Serenity
-Plains
-Duress (if it isn't already in the MB)
-Brainfreeze (possibly)
-Slaughter Pact (if you expect Teeg)
It's pretty obvious for me what to take in, what to take out is the hard question I always face.
This deck is unbeliveably consistant. It is really a force to be reckoned with.
I played a version (UBw) tonight at my local, weekly legacy tourney, at went 5-0 during the swiss. In the semifinals (we played top4 because we were only 17 players) I lost to Dragon Stompy – a really Hellish, Nightmare Match-up…
Well my version of the deck – and the one I think is clearly the best and most resilient – looks like this:
4 infernal tutor
4 mystical
4 brainstorm
4 d.rit
4 c.rit
4 petal
4 led
4 chrome
4 duress
4 chant
3 Nauseam
2 tendrils
1 ill-gotten gains
4 delta
1 flooded
1 mire
3 sea
1 scrub
1 tundra
2 swamp
1 island
My sideboard looked like this today – I was anticipating a lot of zoo-like, and burn-ish decks. And only a couple of blue fow decks:
4 Pact of negation (board these in for 1 gains, 1 it, 1 led, 1 chrome in the blue match, and you can’t loose)
4 echoing truth (the best bouncer for the deck I believe)
3 ee (it looks promising, but I didn’t play them all night. I think maybe slaughter pact is better – it handles teeg you know)
2 ill-gotten gains
1 tendrils (the gains and the tendrils comes in instead of the 3 nauseams in matches where I fear my life total will be to low before I can combo out – that means burn and zoo matches… And fast affinity)
1 Death wish (okay, okay this seems really sucky, and I didn’t use it tonight, but I simply HATE dying to extirpate)
So back to my tournament this evening. Even though we were no more than 17 players the metagame was very developed. The 6 decks I ran into was the following:
Zoo. I win 2-0. He made a mistake while having pyrostatic pillar in play. I was at 8, and tried to resolve an ill-gotten gains, while he in reponse burns me to 2 life-points. But doing so he cranks up my storm, and I don’t need to play any of the dark rituals I just received from the yard.
Affinity. I win 2-1. Game 2 he has cabal therapy and double trickbind. I couldn’t win through that…
Ichorid. I win 2-0. I am simply faster. I boarded in the ill-gotten gains and tendrils, for a safer win. Game one, I win on a resolved orim’s chant in response to his discarding a troll, thus making it impossible for him to combo out with the deep analysis in his grave… Good times
Round 4 I played countersliver… Game 1 I am fast, and I rip his hand apart. Game 2 is unbelievably exciting. I play duress and sees a hand of 2 daze and a brainstorm, taking daze. Next round another duress. Round after that an orim’s chant, and then when I’m at 10 life I resolve ad nauseam drawing no tutor but brainstorm. I fetch for a land, and look at the top three (no outs, sooo glad I fetched) brainstorm into land, land, tendrils. 8 black mana in the pool, and storm 12… GG – 2-0.
In the last round of the swiss I played dreadstill. Uwg I think. We were both safe in the top4, but we were there to play, so that we did. Game one he throws a cb, and wastes my only land. Fortunately I can recover and I resolve an ad nauseam at a comfortable 18 life… I win with no problems… In comes echoing truth… I mulligan like a pro and my hand consists of swamp, it, led, c.rit, c.rit, petal my opponent starts, and I think “what the hell! Lets try the firstrounder!” So I killed him in round one… that was all nice and games…
In the semi I met Dragon Stompy, I had so hoped that I shouldn’t have to meet him, and as soon as I saw it was him I should fight, I kind off conceded. But again; I was there to play. I just have to win the diceroll – so I roll a failing 3 with 3 d6’s! That is what they call epic fail!!!
First game he makes a 5/5 and a chalice @ 1 the round before I can combo off!
Second game he mulls to 4, and is stuck at 1 mountain – I Kill him…
Third game he goes chalice 0, chalice 1 round one. I have echoing truth and to lands, so I am comfortable. He then proceeds to play trinisphere in his turn 2. In his turn three he plays blood moon. I have my mire (damnit for not being strand) and a scrubland in play, and I have nowhere to go…
Anyway the deck is great, and I sincerely believe that splashing white for Orim’s chant is the only way to go. And please keep the robots out of this deck!!
- meanee
This deck is becoming too strong, really. In few time it'll break in a half the whole format, and already now it's doing really well. Do you guys think that wizard will ban something to try stopping the enormous power Ad Nauseam decks will assume ?
The possible candidates for banning / restricting are:
Ad Nauseam itself, which would mean a return to AN-less FT and TES;
Lion's eye diamond, the banning of which would pratically weaken a lot ever combo deck- not only FT and TES, but also Belcher and SI.
Maybe they're just circles in the water from mine, but i fear that orim's chant+ ad nauseam it's a bit too strong for wizard to let it survive; at least, to make so many bombs coexist in one deck. It reminds somehow of flash-power, even if the comparison is really inadeguate (there, you only had to resolve a cc2 spell with a creature in hand, basically a 2 combo card).
What do you think about it ?
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Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Even though there is a strong possibility that WotC will ban the combo in some way, I really hope they don't! I have been crying for a viable, staple storm-combo deck for almost a year now, and now, finally I got it! At least I think so.
IF they should decide to kill the combo, I really hope, that they just turn off Ad Nauseam itself. If they ban LED it will be the death of almost all viable or semi-viable combo-decks in the format, and that would make legacy even more boring... (I am exclusively a legacyplayer, but I have had a feeling that the format as a whole has been a bit boring for the last year or so - since tarmogoyf took over the format I guess...)
Anyway, I don't see the ANT deck being to good for the meta. It is not as if AdN + Chant is alot better than Ill-Gotten gains + chant...
- meanee
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