[DTB] Vial Goblins

[kicks_422]

For mono-red, here's my SB:

3 Goblin King
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle

And for my dream RGB build:

3 Krosan Grip
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pithing Needle

I I board something in, I really want to see it, hence the mostly 4-ofs. Also, why do I rarely see Needles in Goblins SB's? It's a really strong card, as it answers a lot of the deck's problem cards.

[beastman]

What cards can it answer that you have trouble with? Usually, enchantment and artifact removal is a four of before everything else because of cards like Jitte, SoFI, and plague. Those are the cards that can really ruin your day.

[Forbiddian]

Mmm, plague.

Why do people run Goblin King over Mad Auntie in RB? Mad Auntie is great, getting you around Goyf Walls or other big critters. You can Vial her in and regenerate Warchief. B is probably slightly harder to get than RR, but she's so much better than Goblin King it's not even fair.


The only time when Mountainwalk matters is against I guess Goyf Sligh or Aggro Loam, but in both matchups the regen is just as relevant or more relevant. I can see other matchups where the regen matters but the mountainwalk doesn't (anything with creatures, esp Goyf).

Also, Mad Auntie only pumps your Goblins, making her ridiculously good against other Goblin decks (compared to Goblin King). Occasionally you might run into that new Morphafactoryvoid.


EDIT: I've been happy with 1x Wort. One turn with her seals the game and often other decks piss away removal on your earlier drops (or they happen to run Smother or Snuff Out). Obviously Ringleader is better, but I would run 10 Ringleaders if I could.

I justify the 1x because I never ever want to see 2x.

[ScatmanX]

You guys dont have SB cards agaist mirror. why is that? I saw only 1 Gempalm in a SB. I really like Pyroknesis, 2 in SB. My field have a lot of goblins, mainly MonoR or Rg.

Is CotV Sided in agains ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh? set at 1 and 2, is preety much gg, right?

I also would like to know the Jitte thing. How is it working out?

Edit: Currently trying 1x Wort main. quite happy, but I need to play more.

[beastman]

Sideboarding for goblins is a very metagame oriented deal. The comments and generalized sideboards are put together with a large, unknown metagame in mind. Personally, regardless of how well I know a certain metagame, I always have a set of Krosan grips in the board. the other SB card that I forgot earlier is chalice of the void. this is one of your best tools to fight off combo, and I would always have 4 in the board, unless you are completely sure there is no combo where you play. But once again, it is all a personal metagame call, and you have to decide for yourself based off what decks you see most often.

[ScatmanX]

My SB is looking like this now, for RBg

SB: 2 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LRW] Mad Auntie
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

I think it has everything you one want, right?

[kicks_422]

Why do people run Goblin King over Mad Auntie in RB?

The King was for mono-red. If I was running RB, it would most definitely be Mad Auntie.

Well, I don't like boarding in Grips against Jitte and Deed. Needle answers those better, because it answers every copy of that card in the deck. II only board in Grip if the problem card can't be Needle'd (e.g. Plague, Humility, etc.)

[Mantis]

Not sure about Chalice against Threshold, I'm really curious how other feel about this issue.

About RGB Goblins, I had a lot of trouble getting both a Taiga and a Badlands into play. Thus I often had Krosan Grip in my hand but no Taiga to cast it. The same happened with Tin Street Hooligan, I needed the artifact removal but couldn't topdeck a green land because I already used my fetchland on Badlands. The same thing happened with black, I use my Fetchland to get Taiga and then I can't cast the Warren Weirding. This led me to RB Goblins because Red has got it's own artifact hate (I run Goblin Tinkerer), so you only lack enchantment hate. That sucks, but isn't going to be relevant that often. Siege-Gang can pull out the game against Moat, so the only things I really fear are Enchantress, Solitary Confinement and Seismic Assault, meh I'll take my loss. Counterbalance can be dodged by Lackey, Vial and you can just hardcast Siege-Gang, Warchief, Wort, Mad Auntie and Ringleader as they don't cost one or 2 mana.

[kicks_422]

I have been thinking of dropping green entirely too, though. I re-evalutaed the cards which I side Grip against, and those happen to be:

Engineered Plague - not really played much anymore, but if I'd go RB, I'd squeeze Mad Aunties in somewhere
Seismic Assault - Can be Needle'd
Solitary Confinement - usually uses a graveyard engine, so Relic would suffice
Phyrexian Dreadnought - Weirding could be enough, I'm not sure though
Everything in Stax - Maybe some Shattering Sprees?

I really don't fear Counterbalance much with Goblins. I think the only card that RB can't answer would be Humility, and the cards which it would have difficulty against would be Ghostly Prison/Propaganda.

[Justin]

I think the only card that RB can't answer would be Humility, and the cards which it would have difficulty against would be Ghostly Prison/Propaganda.

Humility is a problem because Landstill is one of the most popular decks in Legacy. I almost always see a Landstill deck with Humility when I play a tourney, so that pulls me towards the green splash and Grips in the board. I guess it's a metagame choice though.

[Zinch]

Well, humility is not that common in my meta, but even then, humility is not gg, it only slows you down a little... I play monored, so no krosan grips, but with 4 ports and 4 wastelands the landstill player is in low life count when he drops the humility and then has to answer the 2-3 1/1 critters that are attacking him... I don't say is easy to win through a humility, only that is not imposible

[Nihil Credo]

Go back to Anarchy. It beats Humility plus several other seldom-seen, but annoying cards like Ghostly Prison, Sphere of Law, Silver Knight, Worship, etc.

[Shriekmaw]

I have been thinking of dropping green entirely too, though. I re-evalutaed the cards which I side Grip against, and those happen to be:

Engineered Plague - not really played much anymore, but if I'd go RB, I'd squeeze Mad Aunties in somewhere
Seismic Assault - Can be Needle'd
Solitary Confinement - usually uses a graveyard engine, so Relic would suffice
Phyrexian Dreadnought - Weirding could be enough, I'm not sure though
Everything in Stax - Maybe some Shattering Sprees?

I really don't fear Counterbalance much with Goblins. I think the only card that RB can't answer would be Humility, and the cards which it would have difficulty against would be Ghostly Prison/Propaganda.

I think playing green and black is both very necessary in goblins today. Not only do you have access to Krosan Grip but Engineered Explosives with the 3 color list. The deck is really fast that you can just outrace a lot of hate, but if you can't grip and explosives solves a lot of problems. I wouldn't of done well in so many tournaments if it wasn't for those 2 cards alone in the sideboard.

Engineered Plague is definitely played, maybe not as much but it still remains in a lot of sideboards. Plus, now people fear faeries ever since bitterblossom was printed.

[Mantis]

Leyline of the Void vs. Relic of Progenitus? I'm leaning towards Leyline as it's much better against Ichorid and against Aggro Loam, it can't be stopped by Chalice. Sure, they can destroy it but that means they just spent a huge deal of tempo and you delayed their gameplan a lot. Relic does seem better against Survival though, so it might be a metagame call. Opinions!!

What problems does Engineered Explosives solve? It seems really slow. We already discussed Counterbalance and most found it to be not much of a problem. Bringing in a card that generates a lot of tempo loss when it's Stifled just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. Also, you have goblins that cost 1, 2 and 3 mana thus you will very often be forced to blow up your own Goblins.

Pernicious Deed is actually not that much of a problem for this deck in my honest opinion. You have a lot of ways to cut off their access to the mana required for Deed and you can easily recover from a Deed, unless they take control. I personally hate Pithing Needle, I would never play it unless I had Trinket Mage in the maindeck. It's terrible as pro-active control element because, what if your opponent doesn't have the card in hand you named. And against Deed, you are forced to use it as pro-active control element otherwise your world will be blown up anyway.

Also, what are the opinions on Goblin Tinkerer? Too slow? It seems awesome against Dreadstill, Painter.dec and Dragon Stompy. Also, it's a golin and a creature and as such can be Vialed in and works with Ringleader. It allows you to stop the CB/Top lock as well, as you can just destroy the Top before you play a spell. Although they can still use Brainstorm in conjunction with Top.

EDIT: Forgot about Vexing Shusher, that card can singlehandedly deal with Counterbalance/Top. It's definately going to be a one-of in the SB and maybe it will find it's way into the maindeck.

[Tacosnape]

Leyline of the Void vs. Relic of Progenitus? I'm leaning towards Leyline as it's much better against Ichorid and against Aggro Loam, it can't be stopped by Chalice. Sure, they can destroy it but that means they just spent a huge deal of tempo and you delayed their gameplan a lot. Relic does seem better against Survival though, so it might be a metagame call. Opinions!!

Relic. There's not even a choice. For Goblins, Relic of Progenitus >> Every other graveyard hate in existence. Here's my list of why.

1. Relic of Progenitus solves Tarmogoyf. Almost on its own. R/G Goblins without Black is viable again thanks to this card. R/B gets to pair it with Weirding.

2. See #1.

3. See #2.

4. Relic of Progenitus hits both graveyards. This is actually a plus, as there's no reason to ever want anything in your graveyard with Vial Goblins. It keeps you from being hit by random rogue things like Crime, Haunting Echoes, what have you (I'd say Extirpate, but nobody plays Extirpate against Goblins.) Additionally, it keeps card types out of your yard against future Tarmogoyfs (See #1-#3.)

5. It fucking cantrips. In the right metagames (Read Thresh/Ichorid), you can actually maindeck it if you want, because it replaces itself.

6. You can play it off Wasteland/Port mana and don't need to draw it in your opening hand. This is strictly a "Why it's better than Leyline" argument.

[ScatmanX]

Tasconape, I agree with you in every matter. Played relic in a champ last weekend, adn against 2 ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, it rocked. But i don't think that cutting black is a good idea. In my meta, there are a lot of goblins, and i play 2 Nameless Inversios md, along with gempalm and weirdings. cant see dropping then is as a good call.

[Enigma]

Go back to Anarchy. It beats Humility plus several other seldom-seen, but annoying cards like Ghostly Prison, Sphere of Law, Silver Knight, Worship, etc.

In my meta, there's one or two players that play Moat and if he succed to resolve it before I use all my mana denial to don't let him have 4 mana, the only thing I can do is to scoop...

There's also a good Death & Taxes player that has a lot answers to Goblin.

And Stax is still sometimes played.

Anarchy looks like the only solution to Mono-R and RB lists, even if against Stax it's pretty hard to have 4 free lands to play it.

I used to try the RBG list with Krosan grip in SB but I've never been really able to make it effectiv.

Now I'm back with a RB list with this SB:

4x Pyrokinesis (absolutly indispensable)
2x Pithing Needle
3x Shattering Spree
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Goblin Tinkerer

But I would like to include 2x Anarchy and maybe a Mad auntie if Engineered Plague is still used.

[chokin]

What problems does Engineered Explosives solve? It seems really slow. We already discussed Counterbalance and most found it to be not much of a problem. Bringing in a card that generates a lot of tempo loss when it's Stifled just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. Also, you have goblins that cost 1, 2 and 3 mana thus you will very often be forced to blow up your own Goblins.

Also, what are the opinions on Goblin Tinkerer?

EDIT: Forgot about Vexing Shusher, that card can singlehandedly deal with Counterbalance/Top. It's definately going to be a one-of in the SB and maybe it will find it's way into the maindeck.

I like EE to kill CB, but not as much as Grip. CB is a bitch when you want to resolve Weirdings against a Goyf especially if they Pyroclasm your goblins to make Incinerator worthless. Shusher usually has an "AIM HERE" sign over his head and dies before being able to do much. I like that it answers EtW tokens and other tokens (people play weird decks in Tucson apparently).

I like Tinkerer over TSH solely because of Warchief. Chief makes TSH suck when you want it to shine and makes Tinkerer hot sauce. Without Chief, TSH is much better because Tinkerer is a sitting duck. I also like Vial@2+Chief giving you a quick Shatter effect, which TSH can never do.

Also, LotV and Relic. Holy crap Relic looks sexy as hell. I agree completely with Tacosnape. It makes Incinerator badass against Goyf (play+use Relic[draw], use Incinerator[draw], Goyf dies, smile). It's also awesome for attacking into or blocking Goyf and then using Relic.

EDIT: @Enigma - Don't scoop to Moat. Send your little green men over his Moat with SGC. Otherwise, deny his mana like you are. Grip solves this issue too. I run 2 Taiga and 3-4 Grip SB. I don't see how you're having issues making it effective. Explain?

[Enigma]

Grip solves this issue too. I run 2 Taiga and 3-4 Grip SB. I don't see how you're having issues making it effective. Explain?

First, I only had 1 Taiga. Second, I only had place for 2 K Grip in side. Might be explaining why. Plus, 3 cc is a lot against White Stax.

Holy crap Relic looks sexy as hell. I agree completely with Tacosnape. It makes Incinerator badass against Goyf (play+use Relic[draw], use Incinerator[draw], Goyf dies, smile). It's also awesome for attacking into or blocking Goyf and then using Relic.

There's might be something I don't understand. The first ability of Relic remove a card the player choose so how it is good vs Ichorid or Survival advantage where you want to remove specific cards from his graveyard? Is just the first ability helpless and we rely the effectivness of the card to its second ability?

[Tacosnape]

Since when do people leave Counterbalance in against Goblins post-board? Most people I know don't. Counterbalance against a deck with eight ways to get things in play without casting spells and 12-16 3-4 drops, not to mention sideboard hate for it, typically seems like a bad plan when Counterbalance could be replaced with things that, you know, rape goblins. I don't worry too much about boarding against Counterbalance.

@Enigma: Against Ichorid, yes, you detonate the thing more often than not. Against Survival, on the other hand, you might use the first ability to keep Goyfs in check when your opponent doesn't have a Survival, and if you get multiples early enough it's not unfeasible to keep them off Squee/Genesis without cracking the thing. That said, cracking Relic gets you the card, so it shouldn't be something you're afraid to do. Against Thresh, however, a turn one Relic is pretty sexy (Not like Vial sexy, but you know.) The Relic won't outrace Threshold's graveyard filling, but it will slow it down for a few turns until you need to detonate it.