[Deck] Armageddon Stax

[Guy I Don't Know]

other stax you can try to mulligan into angel if you are short on time, and go turn one angel turn two flip angel stompy style... What I am trying to say is that I would board in threats if there isnt much time left in the round, and cut a card like suppression field from the side to do so.

[Skeggi]

Wow. I would NEVER mul into Angel (not just because I'm not running Angels, but when I was, I wouldn't have done it either). Angel-stompy style is fun, but Stax can never really pull it off. So we drop a first turn Angel? It doesn't have any protection from chalice@1 or Trinispheres, so it's very likely your opponent has something against it. And then what - you have carddisadvantage already, this will likely end in a loss. Best to play it steady and go for the draw then.

[Mastikor]

What do you think of running maindeck Windborn Muse (if not running angel)? Then you could also drop some prisons and gain some free slots.

[DeathScythe]

mulling into an angel is pretty much THE most stupidest thing to do even if your low on time.
What you CAN do is pray god you get a angel stompy hand with the first 7 (AKA 3sphere/Chalice 1 depending on opponent T1, T2 morph angel, unmorph T3 and geddon T4) if you got a solid opening 7 game 2 and lock your opponent out you just make sure he plays it fast even if that means calling a judge for slow play (and yes people do tend to slow play when 1-0 ahead with 5 minutes left).

What do you think of running maindeck Windborn Muse (if not running angel)? Then you could also drop some prisons and gain some free slots

maindeck windbornes works for some people, but dropping prisons for them sounds a bit stupidish as prison don't tend to die as easy as the muses...

[ykpon]

today i'd played in a 37 men tourney and made top4. my list was:

_______

main (i was satisfied with it. the only thing i changed if i could was adding ravages):

4 tomb
4 city
4 flagstones
4 wasteland
3 mishra
6 plains
1 tabernacle
4 mox
3 angel
3 magus
4 stax
4 trini
4 chalice
4 geddon (didnt find any ravages)
4 prison
4 crucible
_______

side (crap. 4 fields + 11 cards i could easily play without):

4 field (the only sb card i needed really)
3 defense grid (not needed imo)
1 guardian of guildpact (seemed ok against goblins and some other decks, but not needed really. only mb to demoralize an opponent)
4 ring (sometimes sided them in when had some dead cards to side out but never wished i had them in main)
3 sphere of resistanse (not needed imo)
________

quick report:

1. muc. we locked each other and couldnt really do anything. he drew more cards so decked himself. we had about 5 minutes for g2 so decided even not to start it. the most boring match ever. 1-0. 1-0-0.

2. bw pox. both times fast chalises/spheres gave me enough time to kill his lands before he could start killing my ones. the only threats were his tombstalkers but ok he hadnt lands and i had prisons. 2-0. 2-0-0.

3. rb goblins. prison with ld effects worked quite well. after sb suppression fields just owned them not letting to destroy my angel with full hand of incinerators. that time i thought any goblins were bye for me. unfortunately it was a mistake. 2-0. 3-0-0.

4. dredge. like against goblins. ghostly prison - oops i won. 2-0. 4-0-0.

so im already in top8 and wanna already eat something, but my next opponent doesnt want to id so i play 5th round too.

5. ugw fish. matchup wasnt so easy as previous ones but anyway all 3 games i left him without lands and creatures after tabernacle+geddon. g2 for a long time i couldnt get 4th mana for a 2nd geddon and he killed me with 5 attacks of his serra avenger through tabernacle and a prison. g1 and g3 i killed him with my mishras. 2-1. 5-0-0.

6. dredge. id to have some rest before top8. 5-0-1.

top8. rgsa (splashing black and white also). g1 was quite stupid. i kept a hand of angel and lands and it worked. turn 1 morph, turn 2 unmorph, attack, attack, 1-0. g2 i got the same hand but with 1 suppression field also. but field got krosan grip, angel was killed by big game hunter, then survival, rofellos, anger etc. in a couple of turns i was already eaten by a crowd of angry tarmogoyfs and enforcers. g3 i locked him with field+magus+geddon quickly enough. 2-1. 6-0-1.

it was the first qualifier for a big winter legacy tourney with good prizes. i had to win just one more match to get an invite. also if i won and wanted to play final an easy dredge was already waiting for me there.

top4. rb goblins. ok, after swiss i was underrating goblins. unfortunately after i was told who my opponent was i couldnt remove a "i just cant lose" thought from my head. but g1 woke me up quickly. i kept a rather bad hand because it included some lands and prison. the thing was that goblins didnt miss land drops and i didnt draw any ld or tabernacle, only stupid chalices and moxes. g2 was fast. prison, angel, geddon, tabernacle. g3 i was thinking about my hand for a lot of time. it was 2 stax, crusible, mox and 3 lands. i decided to keep it thinking topdecking prison or tabernacle in a few turns can give me a good chance winning me that game. mb it was my worst mistake, mb just unluck, i dunno. but obviously i didnt draw anything i wanted during 5 turns i was alive. 1-2. 6-1-1. so no invite, just some rating, a pile of alara boosters and fnm counterspell. anyway i liked this deck i played for the first time. u should be lucky playing it but with good hands it crashes everything. now im thinking about taking it for a next qualifier too. any sb help is welcome (top8 were: me, ugw threshfish, 2 dredges, 2 rgsa, goblins, life combo).

[_erbs_]

@ykpon
Congrats!
______________________________________

I don't know if this has been discussed already sorry if yes. Im just wondering why is that sphere of resistance don't belong in the main board. Normally the last 3-4 slots are the one which varries from angel, obilivion ring or muses.

- angels = faster win condition
- oblivion ring = spot removal
- windborn muse = beater, additional ghostly prison effect

Isn't if that 3 or 4 slots became sphere of resistance, it would add more mana taxing effect thus giving the deck more consistency in terms of mana lock down?

[Mordel]

It can also make things a bit strenuous for you in a match up that just plain doesn't need them. trinishphere, stack, wasteland and geddon are fine in the first game unless you have an extremely saturated metagame in mind.

What matchups did you have in mind exactly?

[Skeggi]

What do you think of running maindeck Windborn Muse (if not running angel)? Then you could also drop some prisons and gain some free slots.

In my experience maindeck Windborn Muse is only viable in a high-aggro low spot-removal meta. These are very rare Dropping Prison for Muse is often a big mistake: usually aggro has its enchantment hate in its sideboard. Creaturehate is standard in every aggro deck.

Isn't if that 3 or 4 slots became sphere of resistance, it would add more mana taxing effect thus giving the deck more consistency in terms of mana lock down?

In a meta with a low or otherwise tight mana curve, Sphere of Resistance will be very useful. Think of a high combo, high Thresh meta. However, since Thresh is the bane of combo, these meta's are also very rare; but in either high combo or high Thresh meta, they can be added still. However Trinisphere often proves to be more useful here. Also, having a Trinisphere on the table and a Sphere of Resistance != combo: in most cases, in your high combo/high thresh meta, your Sphere of Resistance has 0 effect if the Trinisphere is already there: for instance: Sphere of Resistance sets the mana cost to 2 instead of 1; Trinisphere sets it to 3: it always ends up at 3 unless the spell has a converted mana cost of three or more, but against these spells we usually use Armageddon.

@ykpon: Nicely done! Can you tell us more about how you sideboarded please?

[_erbs_]

In a meta with a low or otherwise tight mana curve, Sphere of Resistance will be very useful. Think of a high combo, high Thresh meta. However, since Thresh is the bane of combo, these meta's are also very rare; but in either high combo or high Thresh meta, they can be added still. However Trinisphere often proves to be more useful here. Also, having a Trinisphere on the table and a Sphere of Resistance != combo: in most cases, in your high combo/high thresh meta, your Sphere of Resistance has 0 effect if the Trinisphere is already there: for instance: Sphere of Resistance sets the mana cost to 2 instead of 1; Trinisphere sets it to 3: it always ends up at 3 unless the spell has a converted mana cost of three or more, but against these spells we usually use Armageddon.

Hello,
Im not sure of the ruling but isn't since im the owner of the sphere of resistance and trinishphere i could control how they would stack ?

So when my opponent casts a lightning bolt i'll stack the trinishpere effect then sphere of resistance thus making the lightning bolt's casting cost R + 2 colorless mana + 1 colorless mana ?

And when im the one casting let say a mox diamond, i'll stack sphere of resistance first then trinisphere, making the casting cost 0 + 1 + 2

Are those statements not possible ?

[Skeggi]

Are those statements not possible ?

Only your Mox Diamond scenario is possible.

Trinisphere's effect always comes last. ALWAYS. So with a Trinisphere in play, Sphere of Resistance does nothing to spells with a converted casting cost < 3. With both in play a Lightning bolt costs , no matter how you want to twist or turn it.

Also, just as a FYI, replicate is also part of extra cost. So if Shattering Spree is played by your opponent, and you have a Chalice@1 and a Trinisphere in play, and your opponent replicates Shattering Spree 2 times, the total casting cost of Shattering Spree is . However, Chalice@1 does counter the first Shattering Spree, because it doesn't check the additional cost, but only the original converted mana cost. However, the other two Shattering Sprees aren't countered by the Chalice@1, and since your opponent payed three mana to cast the spell, Trinisphere isn't going to add any mana to that cost. The two replicated versions of Shattering Spree are placed on the stack and will probably resolve as normal. And probably destroy your Trinisphere and Chalice@1.

Yes, we need to find an answer against Shattering Spree

[ykpon]

@ykpon: Nicely done! Can you tell us more about how you sideboarded please?

sure.
nothing against muc because we didnt start g2 but if we did it was something like +4 field +3 grid +3 rings -4 chalice -4 magus -1 tabernacle -1 angel.
against pox +4 fields -4 tabernacle effects (if i understood it was pox g1 i sided some rings for stalker also).
against goblins +4 fields +1 guardian +3 rings -4 chalices -4 smokestacks (next time these +3 rings should become +3 muses or +2 muses +1 tabernacle i think, rings arent needed here).
against ichorid nothing, main deck seems ok.
against vial fish +4 fields -1 mishras -1 magus -1 smokestack -1 angel.
against rgsa +4 fields -4 trinispheres. and also +4 rings -4 smokestacks after g2 when he killed me with some cheap fatties after destroying a prison.

so i sucsessfully boarded fields in against everithing but ichorid and my opponents always hated them with full table of fetches, tops, survivals, ports and vials. shouldnt it be a maindeck card?

also what do u think about such aggresive version of stax? http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20304

[Skeggi]

nothing against muc because we didnt start g2 but if we did it was something like +4 field +3 grid +3 rings -4 chalice -4 magus -1 tabernacle -1 angel

Thanks for your answer I don't understand why you'd use Suppression Fields against MUC though?

against pox +4 fields -4 tabernacle effects (if i understood it was pox g1 i sided some rings for stalker also).

What are the Suppression Fields in this match-up for?

against ichorid nothing, main deck seems ok.

Why not sideboard in your Sphere of Resistance here?

also what do u think about such aggresive version of stax? http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20304

This deck looks like alot of fun to play, however he only runs 20 land and is therefor forced to use Chrome Mox. If you have a high aggro meta, your opponent's creatures will no doubt be more powerful than yours, also, you're lacking Tabernacle effects now. Overall I must conclude that, like said before, it's probably fun to play, but isn't good. I also think 4x Aven Mindcensor and 4x Suppression Field is too much; they're both mainly against fetches anyway. It is tweakable though. Elspeth would fit in nicely I guess.

[Captain Hammer]

I'm tempted to play 2 Windborn Muse in the Oblivion Ring slots just because it's taking too freaking long to kill off my opponents even once I lock them down.

Yes, I play 4 Factories, 4 Magus and 3 Angel, and the deck still feels too slow!

Anyone else have the sme experience?

Is running 9 permanent creatures when 4 of them are Magus a bad idea?

[Skeggi]

Is running 9 permanent creatures when 4 of them are Magus a bad idea?

Yes. This is Stax, you need to be patient. If you can't handle the locking slow-pace of the Stax game, go play tempothresh or combo

[ykpon]

@Skeggi
against muc fields were for shackles and powder kegs.

against pox they were for fetches, tops and wastelands. i decided fields would be more useful than tabernacles against a deck with about 3-4 creatures only.

hm ure right, spheres seem better than smokestacks in ichorid mu.

[Xero]

So, the Stax list that top 8'd the Source Tournament ran 0x Angels and 4x Magi. What do you think about this?

Additionally, I was wondering about Ethersworn Canonist in the SB against combo. TES and other Ad Nauseum based combo decks seem to be abandoning Empty the Warrens, which makes Magus a dead draw against combo. Game 2, you could switch out the Magi for the Cannonists.

[Arsenal]

Angels aren't 100% necessary in all Stax lists. I was running 4x Factory + 4x Magus of the Tabernacle for a while as my only win conditions. It really depends on (a.) meta, (b.) preference.

[Guy I Don't Know]

[QUOTE]Yes, I play 4 Factories, 4 Magus and 3 Angel, and the deck still feels too slow!

Anyone else have the sme experience?/QUOTE]

I find that magus is hard to win with. I cut two for Elspeth which I like alot, especially control decks with basically only EE and a few crits to get to it.

Depends on your meta, your meta seems like it has a lot of goblins with that build. My meta has basically no goblins and a lot of countertop which plays shackles etc.

[Mordel]

Angels strike me as more of a luxury/crutch for players that are less confident in their choice deck for a metagame or overall skill-level in playing the deck.
They also seem like one of the better choices for a card to cut if you want to cut if you want to add more rings, land or other answers. Angel is often sort of an after thought or plan b in some lists, imho.

Between all the various lock pieces and factories(i run four personally), I don't really have a problem winning with magus as my only actual creature on the table four damage or so per turn isn't a bad clock and neither is just the magus on its own when you consider the damage people tend to inflict on themselves. Besides, I usually have my opponent completely fucked by the time my magus is ready to swing at them.

With that said, I'll admit it:I am a pussy and I run two angels, so I am not trying to step on anyone's toes. I have won on her muscular back when lock pieces weren't fitting right and I had an opening to try to get four or five swings in and win off those in case I wasn't able to pull what I needed off the top. I don't have the experience with this deck guys like Fred have, so a backup plan is necessary for me if I can afford the two slots, which I can with my current build.

[Skeggi]

So, the Stax list that top 8'd the Source Tournament ran 0x Angels and 4x Magi. What do you think about this?

There are quite a few Stax players who don't run Angels. It's a matter of preference. I also run 0x Angel and 4x Magus. I think Fred Bear runs 0x Angel and 3x Magus. In general it's easier for us to get the mana-denial lock. After that is accomplished, anything that can deal damage per turn will win us the game.