[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[Obfuscate Freely]

So again, why is exirpate justifiable in tempo black threshold and not in team america. And when you say it's bad there, I think I'll take Adan's word over yours.

Begging the question (logical fallacy)

This deck is "tempo black Threshold," and Dave tried his best to explain why Extirpate makes even less sense here than it does elsewhere:

[Snip - Bardo]

[dude 666]

Begging the question (logical fallacy)

This deck is "tempo black Threshold," and Dave tried his best to explain why Extirpate makes even less sense here than it does elsewhere:

The deck I'm referring to is UGb Thresh with spell snares, stifle, wastelands, dark confidants, mongeese, etc. The deck also plays a few mainboard copies of extirpate; all I'm asking is why it's good in that deck but not in team america. Really, quite a simple question. You don't have to post wiki links for me and be a jackass, you can just answer it.

Snip. Follow your own advice. - Bardo

[socialite]

The deck I'm referring to is UGb Thresh with spell snares, stifle, wastelands, dark confidants, mongeese, etc. The deck also plays a few mainboard copies of extirpate; all I'm asking is why it's good in that deck but not in team america.

If you read that thread, you see that most people defending the card (for whatever incorrect reasoning they have) argue that the card is justifiable for long term resource denial. Now, even though that's an awful way to look at it, assuming you use that theory for the card, it's position in the deck is utterly beyond anything that the deck is hoping to accomplish.

Extirpate =/= Tempo. Clear? Go play test it, its crap.

Ill also ask yet again, what already solid card in the shell would you replace with Extirpate? Even if Extirpate was a good card when you compare it to the package of disruptive cards already in the deck it pales in comparison. Its a simple matter of choosing a more powerful card and Extirpate is not that card.

Extirpate over:
Stifle
Force of Will
Daze
Thoughtseize
Snuff Out
Sinkhole

No thanks.

[Obfuscate Freely]

The deck I'm referring to is UGb Thresh with spell snares, stifle, wastelands, dark confidants, mongeese, etc. The deck also plays a few mainboard copies of extirpate; all I'm asking is why it's good in that deck but not in team america. Really, quite a simple question. You don't have to post wiki links for me and be a jackass, you can just answer it.

Your question is a textbook example of begging the question, which means it is not productive to answer. To spell it out for you, you are implicitly making the following logical argument:

1. Extirpate is good in Tempo Threshold.
2. Team America is very similar to Tempo Threshold. Therefore,
3. Extirpate is good in Team America.

The problem is with the first premise, which is not universally held as true, and which David Gearhart certainly believes to be false. The second premise is true; Team America is indeed extremely similar to Tempo Threshold. So, it would follow that Extirpate is equally "good" or "bad" in both decks, but David obviously believes it to be bad in Team America. So, how should he answer your question? He can try to correct your mistake, and challenge the first premise, but discussing other Tempo Threshold lists is beyond the scope of this thread, and you have already stated that you won't listen to his thoughts on the topic, anyway.

It isn't as if David Gearhart hasn't expounded on the problems with Extirpate, many times before. I can summarize them for you, though.

1. Pairing the card with land destruction is highly conditional.
2. Using it as long-term resource denial is completely antithetical to the aggressive strategy of Team America.

[dude 666]

Your question is a textbook example of begging the question, which means it is not productive to answer. To spell it out for you, you are implicitly making the following logical argument:

1. Extirpate is good in Tempo Threshold.
2. Team America is very similar to Tempo Threshold. Therefore,
3. Extirpate is good in Team America.

The problem is with the first premise, which is not universally held as true, and which David Gearhart certainly believes to be false. The second premise is true; Team America is indeed extremely similar to Tempo Threshold. So, it would follow that Extirpate is equally "good" or "bad" in both decks, but David obviously believes it to be bad in Team America. So, how should he answer your question? He can try to correct your mistake, and challenge the first premise, but discussing other Tempo Threshold lists is beyond the scope of this thread, and you have already stated that you won't listen to his thoughts on the topic, anyway.

It isn't as if David Gearhart hasn't expounded on the problems with Extirpate, many times before. I can summarize them for you, though.

1. Pairing the card with land destruction is highly conditional.
2. Using it as long-term resource denial is completely antithetical to the aggressive strategy of Team America.

Nonono. I'm not saying premise 2 at all. You assumed my question was illegitimate, but I'm not assuming premise 2. I want to know why extirpate is viable in the one deck, but not in the other. Namely, the differences which allow it to be viable. Honestly, I don't know why extirpate is played in UGb thresh, but it's certainly played for a reason. Why can't that reasoning be applied to team america? (again, I'm not beggin or anything, I just wanna know why)

[Deep6er]

Thanks Alix. That's pretty cool of you actually. I'll totally give you a high five the next time I see you.

Anyway, here goes with some of the responding.

@Dark Alucard: Very clever. Obviously none of my arguments count, so I must be stupid. Seems to me that I could retaliate here, but that's not going to accomplish anything. So I tell you what, why don't we leave it be? You don't like me, I don't like you, but I'm pretty sure that outside of the humor value associated with ridiculous shit like this, people don't actually want to read about it.

@Dude 666: See, here's the thing about Tempo Threshold. Dark Confidant is not tempo. Mongoose is nowhere near as threatening as Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf are. Extirpate is not tempo and awful simultaneously. The decks are different, because that deck uses cards that are clearly not tempo oriented, and refuses to use some of the strongest tempo cards available (namely Snuff Out). People assume that Dark Confidant is tempo, or belongs in tempo oriented decks. That is wrong. The card is a poor choice for a tempo deck for two reasons.

1) As a creature, it will have no impact the turn it comes into play, thus making a time walk for the opponent (a turn where you did nothing threatening is a turn where they can stabilize). All creatures have this problem, but for Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker, it's different. Because those creatures are very large, you can justify their turn investment by the amount of damage that they're capable of dealing to your opponent. Because they kill the opponent extraordinarily quickly, they are a valuable resource.

2) Dark Confidant necessitates some kind of filtering ability. I've played decks that had Dark Confidant and Tombstalker in them. Doming yourself for eight is not a good route to victory. Additionally, while Dark Confidant's drawing ability is solid, it's not reliable. Because there's removal in just about any deck he's likely to die. However, where certain removal can rarely deal with Tarmogoyf, just about every piece of commonly played removal can deal with Dark Confidant because he's so fragile. One for one-ing with a Lightning Bolt is an awful strategy, because Tarmogoyf rarely has that problem, and Tombstalker never has that problem. The immunity to damage based removal is a huge boon in those match ups. The fact that Dark Confidant necessitates some kind of filtering effect is just the last nail in the coffin.

[nitewolf9]

Honestly, I don't know why extirpate is played in UGb thresh, but it's certainly played for a reason.

Well, as you can see, nobody that had a hand in developing Team America agrees with extirpate being useful, so you might need to get your answers somewhere else. Honestly though, use your own judgment...if you can't think of a reason that someone would include extirpate in a deck like this, I'd say that's a pretty big red flag.

PS. Extirpate sucks ass.

PPS. Seriously, it does.

[frogboy]

I want to know why extirpate is viable in the one deck, but not in the other.

It's not viable in either deck.

[jericohs@cottage]

Extirpate does not move this decks gameplan in any direction but backwards. It does not fit in this shell. That is all.

[aTn]

What's your SB plan for Dragon Stompy ?

In the few tests I did, I went:

-4 Stifle
-4 Toughtseize

+4 BEB
+4 Grip

I'm not an expert of the match-up, so by no means do I claim this is the best SB plan ever (in particular, my SB plan doesn't even change wether I'm on the play or on the draw).

In my experience (which may not yet be representative of the match-up in general), on the draw, I've found the mana-denial plan to be average, i.e. I've often found myself backpedalling to counter/get rid of their threats/nuisances rather than enforcing that gameplan. In that case, maybe siding-out Sinkhole instead of Thoughtseize is an option.

I don't side-in the Edicts because I think 4 BEB + 4 Snuff Out is enough to deal with their creatures (the rest is dealth with, ideally, with Krosan Grip) - again, I may be wrong.

P.S.: Those of you who want to test Extirpate, do it - no one here seems to be preventing you from doing so. Why waste time (and forum space) having a discussion that's leading you nowhere when you can do your own thinking/testing and make your own conclusions ?

P.P.S.: Personally, I don't really see why I'd want to play Extirpate over all the maindeck choices we have.

[Elf_Ascetic]

True. Extirpates role in tempothresh is to win the mid/lategame. This deck has Tombstalker to do that. Pate is NOT, and I repeat NOT needed!

Lets go on with a discussion about the rest of the cards.

THANK YOU! - Bardo

[jericohs@cottage]

What's your SB plan for Dragon Stompy ?

In the few tests I did, I went:

-4 Stifle
-4 Toughtseize

+4 BEB
+4 Grip

I'm not an expert of the match-up, so by no means do I claim this is the best SB plan ever (in particular, my SB plan doesn't even change wether I'm on the play or on the draw).

In my experience (which may not yet be representative of the match-up in general), on the draw, I've found the mana-denial plan to be average, i.e. I've often found myself backpedalling to counter/get rid of their threats/nuisances rather than enforcing that gameplan. In that case, maybe siding-out Sinkhole instead of Thoughtseize is an option.

I don't side-in the Edicts because I think 4 BEB + 4 Snuff Out is enough to deal with their creatures (the rest is dealth with, ideally, with Krosan Grip) - again, I may be wrong.

P.S.: Those of you who want to test Extirpate, do it - no one here seems to be preventing you from doing so. Why waste time (and forum space) having a discussion that's leading you nowhere when you can do your own thinking/testing and make your own conclusions ?

P.P.S.: Personally, I don't really see why I'd want to play Extirpate over all the maindeck choices we have.

On play i see no problems with what your suggesting. Removing stifle is ok, since they have no sac lands. Thoughtseize on the other hand can rip their gameplan to shreds. I've noticed that once DS is finished with its TURN 1 play, it has but one remaining threat in its hand. Thoughtseize is a nice way to shut down a one trick pony like DS (Apart from SoFnI they have no draw engine).
On the draw, i'm a little worried about turn 1 moon effects and the lack of basics in the deck. If its not a turn one moon effect its likely a big fatty. I think Krosan Grip is too slow. 4 snuff out maindeck and board in Edicts is probably best. Or, only thing i can think of at the moment is to aggressively mulligan to FOW to combat that turn 1 moon effect.

[MasterC]

Why doesn't the deck play 2 Bayou 1 Tropical? During testing on mws I sometimes faced the situation that I wasnt able to hit BB for Tombstalker or Sinkhole in time. And we dont play any card that costs UU except Force, which you usually dont want to hardcast.

[nitewolf9]

Because having bayou in your opening hand sucks. We have been considering -1 flooded strand, +1 bloodstained mire though. That would probably be an ok switch.

[Happy Gilmore]

It is difficult but not impossible to effectively cast spells with 13 sources of black mana. Ponder and Brainstorm obviously help this a bunch. That being said, cutting blue sources is extremely suspect, and I don't believe there is any advantage to going down to 14. It will make Daze worse and will at times screw you out of playing cantirps. I can certainly get behind cutting a strand for a second Mire though.

[mackaber]

Because having bayou in your opening hand sucks. We have been considering -1 flooded strand, +1 bloodstained mire though. That would probably be an ok switch.

I've actually made this switch and I'm very happy with it.
Also I've found myself loosing an awful lot to artifact based control (Stax and Quinn) so I've added Deeds to the sideboard shaving the numbers on other spells. My theory behind this was that there are decs where you have next to no chance to execute your primary gameplan and thus you need to play more controllish.Deed against quin or stax is just that bomb that will turn games that you could never win anymore back around plus it's overall flexibility is just too good to pass up.

Also and I know after all the flaming about Extirpate this is not the right point in time to bring this up but I've been strongly considering replacing the Crypts in the board with extirpate. So hear me out on this, while yes I am German, I totally hate extirpate but I have found that I have great troubles beating anything running LftL just because if I cannot profit from the early tempo gain by not finding a threat or having it stick, loam will pown my arse. Since anyone with more than 5 braincells will not let crypt steal their loam extirpate is just plain better suited for this. Also extirpate is a more flexible SB slot in combo matchups where you wanna board stuff like snuff out out but don't have anything to bring in.

[Rood]

I've actually made this switch and I'm very happy with it.
Also and I know after all the flaming about Extirpate this is not the right point in time to bring this up but I've been strongly considering replacing the Crypts in the board with extirpate. So hear me out on this, while yes I am German, I totally hate extirpate but I have found that I have great troubles beating anything running LftL just because if I cannot profit from the early tempo gain by not finding a threat or having it stick, loam will pown my arse. Since anyone with more than 5 braincells will not let crypt steal their loam extirpate is just plain better suited for this. Also extirpate is a more flexible SB slot in combo matchups where you wanna board stuff like snuff out out but don't have anything to bring in.

If you're talking about Aggro Loam and not ITF then that's probally a terrible idea. They just Burning Wish Loam back and proceed to cave skull.

[mackaber]

If you're talking about Aggro Loam and not ITF then that's probally a terrible idea. They just Burning Wish Loam back and proceed to cave skull.

Sounds like a terrible argument. If you actually suceed at removing Loam with Crypt he has Wish and Loam as outs. And in fact Loam recurs. Burning wish on the other hand does not and thus you need to spend only one counter. So yeah if he has wish and still has mana to cast it and you do not have a counter you are obviously boned but just being boned cause you have no real sollution to Loam (as in Crypt) in general seems like the worse choice. Admitedly versus the fear or intuition ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh Crypt is prolly better but against Aggro Loam it does nothing versus a competent opponent.
I just think depending on the metagame Extirpate could be more usefull since it adresses one of the most problematic cards.

[nitewolf9]

You're forgetting that crypt not only hits their loam but all the lands in their yard as well. Extirpate is mediocre against aggro loam to say the least.
With crypt you buy a bunch of time, hurt them even if they have the burning wish, and can also randomly kill terravore with tombstalker. The more important point however is the fact that extirpate does nowhere near enough to stop ichorid, while crypt is awesome against them.

[klaus]

Team MKM rocks Pro Tour Berlin (*cough* anyway, one of the major side events *cough*)

Cheers fellas,
yesterday I managed to take home the trophy for the Legacy event of the ProTour Berlin and picked up the #1 prize: 30 rev. Duals (!)
This is my "obligatory" report.

Nov. 1st: Attracted by the undeniably sexy prize support 113 players from all over Europe gather to fight for glory and, well, 40 Duals and stuff.
As expected, the majority of the field is made up by my homies from the Berlin area and players from Northern Germany.
UWr Dreadstill epically failing me at the Legacy Old Box Trial on the previous day made me want to play something really straight forward, yet versatile and just as powerful if possible. Also, making those 8 rounds while not suffering a burnout was part of the plan. As my teammates arranged 4 Goyfs and 4 Sinkholes my choice was fairly easy. A slightly modified Team America should turn out to be the optimal meta call.
Here's my list:

Team MKM* - NOV 2008
*TA 1.1

MD:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Snuff Out
1 Ghastly Demise (to be discussed)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought (more on this choice @the bottom of the page..)
(41)
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Swamp
(19)

SB:
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives (to be discussed)
2 Tormod's Crypt (s.a.)
2 Dark Confidant (s.a.)


Round I
VS a Burn.dec playing Viking.
G1: After his Mountain->Lava Spike it's clear what I'm up against. I'm aware this MU can be troublesome if I don't manage to land an early fattie and beat for 5 per turn. With Thoughtseize, Snuff Out and Demise being dead cards, G1 might have turned out bad, so I dropped a turn 3 Nought ftw.
IN: 4 BEBS - OUT: creature hate
G2: A turn 2+3 Goyfs finish him in short order.

Round II
VS the Mighty Quinn (sans Painter combo)
As I later gather my opponent came in 5th the previous day. Being rooted in Extended he starts to chatter about the allegedly low playskill level of the average Legacy player. Good thing I could teach him a lesson. Hah!
G1: After mulling to 6 I keep a mana denial hand fit to beat any deck featuring lots of non basics..I scoop to Scepter+Chant (no MD outs - meh)
IN: 2 Bobs, 2 Grips, 2 EEs - OUT: Creature hate, 1 Stifle, 1 Nought
G2: I keep my 7 consisting of Fetch, Sea, Waste, Confidant, Daze, Force and Sinkhole which leads to him struggling for mana and folding to the goodies Bob drew. I think he didn't resolve a single spell after Bob hit.
G3: See G2. I destroy his lands like it was my job, counter anything relevant and kill him with Stalker.
At this point I still think that the deck had luck-sacked its way to that evil load of disruption...

Round III
VS Max playing UWb Cunning LS (pretty much agreed upon list)
I know Max from previous tourneys. He's a decent opponent and didn't commit any obvious blunders, afaik. I hadn't tested this MU before and wasn't quite aware that it's in my favor.
G1: OK. This was lucky..ich draw no less than 3 Sinkholes during the earlygame = he dies a painfull death
IN: 2 Grips, 2 Bobs - OUT: creature hate
G2: It was Max's turn to goddraw now. He kills 3 early Goyfs and somehow resolves 2 Humilities and 1 Crucible (+A. Ruins). I scoop.
G3: See G1. I thoughtseize him twice, destroy most of his land and 2 Stalkers stalk him to death. Max is pissed. I don't care.

Round IV
VS Marvin playing Geddon Stax
This is the first game that proved the basics' awesomeness.
G1: I waste his Tomb, daze a 3sphere, seize an O. Ring and have a Stalker enter the field. Marvin establishes a Crucible-Waste lock in the meantime. But the basics I fetched before shrug at his lock and the lonely Ghostly Prison, so Tombstalker (this guy needs a nick) knocks him out.
IN: 2 Bobs, 2 Grips, 2 EEs OUT: Creature hate, 1 Stifle, 1 Nought
G2: Marvin starts with Plains->Go (whew, so far so good!) I go land go, too and watch him drop a mysterious morph. Luckily I hold an EE exploding the Angel byebye. I continue to thoughtseize anything relevant, so Stalker can nail down my 4-0-0.

Round V
VS some nice Polish guy playing 4color LS
I knew what he was playing cause I'd watched his previous game (LS mirror) VS a friend of mine. Based on the experience I made against UWbLS (boasting 5 basics) I was really comfortable facing a version with 0-2 basics.
G1: I win the die roll. Thoughtseize reveals his 5-lander - did he know what he was up against, too? To make a long story short: zillion Wastelands, Stifles and Sinkholes ruin his day. Fun fact: Even though he drew some more land, he never had more than 2 in play.
IN: 2 Bob, 2 Grip - OUT: Creature hate
G2: See G1.
Seriously, this deck is soo evil I was afraid I'd grow devil horns and would've had to be excorcized after the event!

Round VI
VS BW aggro featuring Wastelands, Vindicates, Grunts, Bobs and Vials
G1: I annihilate his land, thoughtseize and daze the rest and win with Lhurgoyfs.
IN: 3 Edicts, 1 EE - OUT: 2 Snuffout, 1 Ponder, 1?
G2: The gamestate looks favorable after turn 12 or so and then I make my first stupid mistake of the day. Ponder reveals me Snuff Out, Demise, Land (I'm holding crap and Edict). I pass, he drops S. Avenger which I addict eot, only to lose to the infinite cards of the Confidant he later drops - bleh!
G3: see G1. Tag team Tombstalkers do what they're supposed to do .

Round VII
VS some nervous Polish guy playing R/G Beatz
At that point we're they only players at 6-0-0. I was pretty sure this was the most unfavorable MU of the day and consulted my homies on whether I should offer a draw to better my chances on a #2 finish (whimpy, I know). Every single mate I talk to advises me to offer the ID so I quitetly wave goodbye to the title and those precious 30 duals, sniff.
After we're seated I offer the nervous Polish guy the draw I'm still seeking, but he declines. I then proceed with all the semi-logical and pseudo-mathematical argumentation I managed...and he still declines. So I go f*** that we're battling it out!
That was probably when the evil spirit that dwells in TA came to like me again. Here is how it went down:
G1: He wins the die roll and starts with Taiga->Rift Bolt. I had kept a mana denial hand boasting Daze and Wastes cause I figured that raping his mana base (pretty much destroying all) was the only out I had other than dropping the unlikely turn 2 Nought. Anyway, I waste his Taiga, only to watch him dropping another plus Figure of Destiny. I waste his 2nd Taiga, he frowns. Next, he drops a fetchland, attacks for 1 and passes without fetching. At the end of my turn Stifle strikes again, he double frowns and gets really nervous. In his turn he probably topdecks a B. Ring and attacks for 2 only to have me watch Sinkhole his last land and he's OUT! Fuck yeah! That felt good.
After G1 he pseudo-relaxedly announces that he might consider a draw now. (*LAWLZ*) I'm thinking of the playset of BEBs and politely decline.
G2: Believe it or not: My starting 7 reveal me the Nougt combo and I start smiling, being aware there'd be nothing to stop me now.
I know, I know that was mega-lucky, really. But so funny, infinitely funny nonetheless.

Round VIII
VS Alex (A.)Trappe ("Atrappe" meaning "dummy" in German, no kidding). Fun fact #2 his mother's name is Angelica.
A.trappe plays C. Breakfast. He figures he's the absolute underdog in this MU and offers to ID, which I gladly accept. 7-0-1 ftw? Hells yeah!

---

Some thoughts on the debatable choices:

Ghastly Demise: Testing showed that lifeloss via Snuff Out, TS, fetchies and FOWs can be an issue against aggro decks. Replacing a Snuff Out was a mini step towards a more balanced setup. Smother is very likely to replace Demise, however.

Dreadnought:
This is easily the most questionable choice I made. Nought, practically replacing land #20 has a whole lot offer though. Here's what me and a teammate (yes, Nightmare: >M. Ringwald<, again!) determined:
- silverbullet that can be game breaking
- gives mid/lategame Stifles a reason to exist
- entering G1 he makes opponents board in hate à la Grip (TA has no other targets though)
- I board the single copy out and smile an evil smile
- entering G2 I can be sure most of my oppent's non-creature hate went to the board, increasing the chances to win via Nought
- worst case scenarios: gives Goyfs +2+2, is counterbait, gets brainstormed away, destroys Bridges, etc..
- obviously this tech works only so long as it's secret so don't expect me to run that shit in the near future. I'd still be looking for a creature in this slot, though.


Mana base:
The basics saved my ass against Stax and BW aggro. There are several more archetypes against which they shine, though. Also having a more resilient mana base allows us to go down to a total of 19. The only change I'd currently consider is dropping a Strand in favor of the 2nd Mire.

The SB:
Dark Confidant:
- against "xyz-control.dec" he's simply the nutz and ensures we never run out of gas.
- as you've seen I left all the Stalkers in when boarding him in. This turned out to be just right, for Ponder and BS never let you down, ever.
- I was happy with Bob the entire day even though he "only" won me a single game. Against LS & CO he's simply my #1 threat.

Engineered Explosives:
- pretty much K. Grips #3&4
- with the advantage to break Chalice@1 not only faster but under Moon effects as well. Allowing BEBs to rock again.
- it's an invaluable sweeper hitting one of our arch enemies: Vial, Turn2, too.
- moreover it eats Zombie tokens justifying my going down to merely 2 Crypts (and thus making room for Bobs).

---

Props:
- MagicCardMarket.eu for sponsoring 'deluxe'
- Team MKM teammates for psychologic support
- Jens for lending me Sinkholes (this card is more evil than anything)
- Mucki for lending me his Goyfs
- M. Ringwald formaking me play that singleton Dreadnought
- Jan Sudmann (NQN on TS) for tactical support
- and most of all Deep6er and nitewolf9 for developing yet another MVP.dec


Thats all folks,
Peace,

Klaus, aka. Jaschar, Team-MKM

-edit-
not having to play against CBTop.dec certainly helped a bunch - this MU needs more testing before I can justify my SB approach.