Have you considered, or tried, counterbalance in the daze/spellsnare slot? Obviously you'd have to make room for top as well, and make sure the mana base can support a turn 2 counterbalance more easily, but counterbalance is just so good. Would force you to only run 1 forest/swamp(which is think is better anyway), probably only 1 wasteland, and possibly not run volrath.
Also, I'm not sure about snuff out. How has it tested thus far? Seems like the life loss might be a bit too much for this deck.
I don't think multiple Wastelands is a good idea, since the only time the deck really wants to use it is simply as a Wastelock, not for tempo. Wasteland sets the deck back a land drop permanently (as opposed to Daze), and this deck needs to operate on a higher land count to use its control portions.@ Goaswerfraiejen
Basic Lands
Against re-curring Wasteland you do have Loam to never miss a land drop. Also you do not need double Green or Black to cast your creatures. I am happy that you are testing -1 Swamp -1 Forest +2 Wasteland.
Mana Base
Also I think your mana-base is just as good since all you did was cut 2x non-blue source for 2x non-blue source.
Also I would personally go -1 Bayou -1 Heath +2 Delta.
And are you sure 19 lands is enough? I haven't tested you list allot but I was just wondering your opinion on how many lands to play. I'm currently testing 21 in my version.
Genesis VS. Volrath
What my point was that against every deck other than "ITF" Volrath will still beat your opponent and you do not need the extra draw. The only time Genesis especially shines in against "ITF" which you have Wasteland and Ravens Crime and they don't so you should win anyways.
Basically if you play only Volrath you can cut:
1 Cephalid Coliseum (you could play lonely sandbar to re-cur wasteland?)
1 Wonder
1 Gigapede
These are all good cards in your build but it seems like they are so rediculouslly good because of the synergy with only each other. For example I don't think you would play any of these cards by themselves and that they need other cards to become good.
1 Eternal Witness
If it's not to search for then why are you playing it as a 1-of and not 2-3-of?
I thought since it was a 1-of it was to Intuition for. Maybe I'm still really confused on this slot. I cut it because most of the time I ended up just shuffling it away with brainstorm or being mad because it cost 1GG.
Daze
Yeah it seems like it's a necasarry evil. My deck is a bit slower than yours as I like to avoid playing it at all. Spell Snare is really good in a very competative meta-game but at smaller less competative tournaments I run counterspell. Which I'm not always happy with and it obviously doesn't belong in this deck.
Anyways...
I'm glad to see you testing some of our brainstorming and am very intrested to see how the changes play out in testing. Let me know what you think.
I do agree that double Forest and double Swamp is unecessary though.
19 lands is in fact enough. When the deck doesn't hit Intuition/Loam/Genesis/Deed, it plays just like Threshold, which operates on even just 17 lands. When the deck does go into control mode, it uses Loam. 19 lands and 8 cantrips is enough to hit 3 lands consistently for Intuition, which then grabs Loam, which propels the deck (on average) to 5 lands in a single cast. Beyond that, excess land drops would waste business spell spots, where you're getting infinite land drops via Loam anyway.
In a deck like ITF, which doesn't have a low curve Threshold early gameplan, they need more lands. This deck is different, though.
Volrath's Stronghold is only better against other decks when you have Counterbalance. Otherwise, it's worse than Genesis. Putting a creature on top of library instant speed is unecessary since you want to cast the creature during the mainphase anyway.
Volrath's Stronghold puts creatures on top of library, so all you are doing is continually drawing into a creature until one finally sticks. Unless you are playing against a control deck like Landstill where you need inevitability like that, it's effect is very lackluster.
Genesis allows the deck to still draw a card for the turn, but also draws the card a creature from the graveyard. The card advantage is the entire reason why the recur effect is good. Volrath's Stronghold is simply subpar to Genesis.
In fact, much of the deck revolves around card advantage. Typically Pernicious Deed at least 2-for-1's, Loam is (usually) +2 CA, and Genesis is +1 CA. Card advantage actually does win games, and I believe Landstill is willing to agree with that.
I do agree that Wasteland/Raven's Crime is strong against control decks. Along with Gigapede, those 3 cards make the control matchup a very good matchup.
I completely disagree with your sentiments about Coliseum, Wonder, and especially Gigapede.
Gigapede is this decks finisher. Gigapede is vastly superior to other finishers like Mystic Enforcer, because it is almost impossible to get to rid of and is huge at 6/1 (almost always trades with Goyf). Gigapede dodges EE, Counterbalance, and dodges my own cast Pernicious Deeds (usually). Toss him a Wonder and he's more than likely going to end the game in 3 or less turns.
Wonder gives all of the creatures in the deck flying, which is extremely good. If you play the deck a few handful of times, you'll find that flying wins games alot.
Coliseum is the weakest of the 3 cards mentioned, and is very rarely used. However, it is a necessary evil to have a land that can discard Genesis/Wonder. It diversifies recur packages against graveyard hate in games 2 and 3 (Coliseum/Genesis and Gigapede). It also ups the land count by 1, which means if you drop it, it should be replaced by another land anyway. I suppose Volrath's Stronghold could be argued for the spot but I think Cephalid Coliseum is more useful to the deck. In the lategame against control decks (once you have enough land drops), using extra mana to Loam/Coliseum isn't bad, either.
I personally don't use Eternal Witness, so no comment there.
Daze is a critical elemental to this deck. Who cares if Daze sets the deck back a land drop... the deck is Threshold before it's Landstill. It needs Daze to play the Threshold role effectively early, simple as that. The deck has sufficient control spells that make Daze mostly irrelevant mid-late anyway.
---
And my current build is actually:
U/G/b Intuition Thresh
Lands (19)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland
Creatures (14)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
3 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
Spells (27)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
3 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Duress
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Stinkweed Imp
Just a few minor changes, but relevant nonetheless. Raven's Crime sucks early game but is a powerhouse mid-late, which warrants its inclusion. BEB has been more useful to me overall than Duress, so I went to 4/2 from 3/3. Extirpate is still a controversial spot, though I think it's overall utility (for the type of deck that this is), is better than stronger graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt.
A combination of Ponder/Thoughtseize/Daze could be dropped for CounterTop, but I'll explain why I don't like it in this deck. Yes, CounterTop is very strong. Yes, alot of decks have problems against CounterTop. The problem is, Counterbalance has negative synergy with the deck (Deed), and the curve for this deck is a little high to be accurately effective without Top (except against ITF, I guess). The deck has creature recursion to negate Deed for the aggro plan, but does not have enchantment recursion for the control plan.Have you considered, or tried, counterbalance in the daze/spellsnare slot? Obviously you'd have to make room for top as well, and make sure the mana base can support a turn 2 counterbalance more easily, but counterbalance is just so good. Would force you to only run 1 forest/swamp(which is think is better anyway), probably only 1 wasteland, and possibly not run volrath.
Instead of assembling a CounterTop lock, this deck uses Loam/Genesis/Deed to create actual card advantage instead of virtual card advantage. The deck also has Wasteland/Raven's Crime to put a lock (albeit a different lock) on the opponent.
Trying to work Counterbalance into this deck requires the deck to completely distort other synergistic interactions to make it stronger, i.e Volrath's Stronghold to replace Genesis, etc.
This does not mean that Counterbalance is not a very very strong card, it means that Counterbalance doesn't need to go in every deck with blue. If you want to play this deck with Counterbalance, I suggest playing ITF, because that is the deck for you.
would you consider CB in SB as a way of countering Burn deck or Goyf Sligh? They go rampant in my meta, thus the reason why im not playing decks without CB/top
Chill could be a solution too, if you dont want to to play cb.
Robert
There was a time when I did consider Counterbalance in the sideboard for the burn matchup, but ultimately decided to go with Blue Elemental Blast. BEB/Duress combined with FoW/Daze should usually buy enough time for the aggro beats to kill the opponent. CounterTop was also really clunky to fit in the sideboard, since it requires 7 slots to be effective.
BEB is also very strong against Goblins and Dragon Stompy, while being useful against several other matchups.
Would this be a better choice over say Swan and Moon Thresh or UGr Thrash?
I have most of the cards, but what does this improve on? What kind of a mirror match? Combo MU?
Maybe I missed it in the opening post (kinda long...nice work, I just don't quite have the time to read it anymore)...If it's there, just tell me the section if you would. Sorry to not be contributing much (read: any, yet).
Have you thought about Recollect as a helpful Intuition target? Possibly Reclaim? IDK, maybe it's no good, but I think it's not horrible...
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
The idea is that it is threshold w/ a strong lategame with recursive properties and tutors to make this possible... it gives you inevitability.Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
This deck has decribed it's match-ups honesly (like not having a positive matchup vs the rest of the field)(props on that, Goas and Hanni) but it has the same strenghts and weaknesses as threshold - I speak for Balanced UGB and UGWB now. The controlmatchup is slightly better, the combomatchup slightly worse.
DCI L1 Judge, admin of www.BeNeLegacy.nl and member of Team Nijmegen (T.N.T.=Team Nijmegen Tendrils).
Good to see the primer, the only "bitch" I have with it tho' is you seem to ignore Shriekmaw's inability to remove Phyrexian Dreadnought and Dreadstill has proven itself to be a legitimate deck.
Just for the record, I started the primer but Goas finished it; i.e he added far more content than I did. Distinctly, my matchup %'s vary from what Goas stated: better for some, worse for others. However, I agree with almost everything else.
I agree with you. Dreadstill is a very good deck and this deck has problems against Dreadstill (and other Dreadnought decks). The problem is that, right now, there are very few "good" alternatives to improve the matchup. By replacing Shriekmaw with Smother, the deck loses synergy between Genesis and Shriekmaw against all other matchups, and Smother still doesn't answer Tombstalker.Good to see the primer, the only "bitch" I have with it tho' is you seem to ignore Shriekmaw's inability to remove Phyrexian Dreadnought and Dreadstill has proven itself to be a legitimate deck.
The simple fact is that the deck has to have a bad matchup or matchups somewhere, and Dreadstill happens to be one of those matchups. The best way to counteract this is to sideboard appropriately, with cards like Krosan Grip and Engineered Explosives doing a very good job.
Against everything else, Shriekmaw is MVP. It destroys the most common creature in the format for 2cc (Goyf), which is similar to other removal options, and has the ability to provide card advantage (think Flametongue Kavu). The fact that it can be recurred is important against certain matchups; the fact that it trumps Bridge from Below against Ichorid is also valuable.
The best "overall" solution is to go 4c and splash white for Swords to Plowshares, which is not out of the question. What is the question, though, is whether or not mana instability and a small loss in synergy is worth the small gain. That is up to each individual, as well as the specific metagame. If Dreadnought based decks are speculated to be a large percentage of the metagame, I'd probably consider a different deck honestly.
I do appreciate the feedback though, and you are dead on with your assumptions.
EDIT: And for the record, this is still my favorite deck. It has everything I want, conveniently packed into one awesome deck with the best (IMO) color combination in Legacy. It is very consistent, much like typical Threshold, with strong backup plans when things get out of whack. It's also amazing in multiplayer games, which makes it an all-around great deck to build IRL.
Well, since you don't have red for Ancient Grudge and already run Gigapede.. I'm going to rip an idea from Finn and suggest Carrionette. Obviously slow, easily played around once the opponent knows it's there and jank in anything but the midgame but it's effectively a tutorable black removal spell that can deal with early Tombstalkers/Dreadnaughts.
@Hanni, while that's reasonable, I think we could look into alternatives ala Executioner's Capsule and diversify our removal a little.
Capsule doesn't really diversify at all, and is vulnerable to even more than Shriekmaw. Snuff Out is a better diversification option, and it's serving well in my testing so far. But more on that later.
The only real difference between Shriekmaw and Executioner's Capsule is the latter can't be targeted with Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip, it's a fair trade off tho' for Phyrexian Dreadnought.
Snuff Out seems reasonable, I'll give it a shot.
You mean the "former".
That aside, there are two more singificant differences: Capsule is very vulnerable to Counterbalance, and its recursion doesn't fit into the deck very well. It might be possible to work in one Ruins, but I'd remain just a tad concerned about the manabase. On the other hand, that makes EE a rather nice sideboard choice. Let us know how it pans out.
If Dreadnought is the main motivation for using the Capsule, I'd be equally worried about Capsule being just as vulnerable to Stifle and Trickbind. I'm definitely leaning more towards Snuff Out. Having the option to play it for free is really quite something, in a deck that's so mana-intensive.
EDIT: Or... Bone Splinters. (Just kidding)
There is now a re-currable Edict:
I don't like capsule or shriekmaw, and in my slower version I run shackles. But I've been thinking about this card and Stinkweed Imp as when I lose it's usually to a Black or Pro Black creature. This card may deserve some testing.Fleshbag Marauder
2B
Creature - Zombie Warrior
When Fleshbag Marauder comes into play, each player sacrifices a creature.
3/1
After having tested Captain America extensively I've started to test Snuff Out in here as well and I must say it works like a charm. Get's kind of annoying with Seizes and fetches though so I doubt you can run more than 3 or more than 3 seizes. Is there any way to build some lifegain into the dec? Thinking Baloth as a one of but seems kinda meh.
@mackaber
I don't think you should play life gain just to make Thoughtseize and Snuff Out more playable, it seems like a bad excuse to play cards that don't belong in the deck. Anyways...
Snuff Out
I've been testing also and it's very nice. Sometimes Intuition for 3x Snuff Outs has kinda saved me. Also it's very cool b/c it's good against Counterbalance. The lifeloss doesnt really hurt since sometimes it can save some life for comming out earlier than removal normally can b/c it's free. Like playing Goyf and Snuff Out on T2 is cool.
But after testing it for a while now I've been discouraged b/c I've been having problems against Dark Confidant and Nantuko Shade. Now smother can kill both of these but Smother cannot kill "Turn 1 Lackey" or some of Dragon Stompy's creatures. Currently I'm more scared of a Dark Confidant drawing lots of cards (which beats me) and have moved to testing Smother.
Spell Snare VS. Thoughtseize
I think that the low for blue spells for Force of Will is 16-17 but if you often are forced to SB out a few blue spells you may need more to make Force of Will castable more often. And so I have tried to up to 20 blue spells.
I cut Thoughtseize for Spell Snare;
What are the major match-ups where I will definately be missing this card? Combo?
I haven't really missed it and like that Spell Snare can counter opponents Top-Decks while Thoughtseize cannot.
I would like to know everyone elses thoughts on:
Spell Snare in this deck. (Or Simular Decks)
And the Importance of Thoughtseize.
I wouldn't play this deck with out Thought Seize, you want/need pro-active disruption for resolving Pernicious Deed. I cut Snuff Out because the 4 damage just sends the Goblin and Burn match ups down the shitter.
Understandable but what are these decks that we need to resolve cards like deed against by using Thoughtseize that we don't already crush?
Do you really think then that the 4 life loss is worse than no answer to T1 Lackey? I guess it's probably not worth it, your obviouslly right about the goyf/sligh type match-ups though.
What are the main reasons thoughtseize is played? If it's mainly to ensure a resolved Deed, why would Duress not be acceptable? I understand you like the option of making them discard a Goyf/Mongoose/Nought/Stalker/Etc., but I think Snuff Out can handle the creature that duress doesn't make them toss in the occasion of them not having anything else extremely relevant in their hand, while keeping the functionality of the discard spell relevant in every other respect. A nerfed Duress just means your Deed is a go.
Pce,
--DC
Schadenfreude is the most genuine kind of joy, since it doesn't include even a drop of envy.Why can't we just admit it?
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