[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[ssilver]

It seems more to me like a control type than the normal aggro LD + Hand destruction Deadguy Ale decks, but eh whatever. The only problems I run into is that I run out of gas, or can't stall until the fourth turn (critical to get angel/jitte going to regain life). Maybe an extra top will help that, as thats really the only reason to run fetchlands (more lifeloss that adds up) in the deck.

[Hummingbird TG]

Can't stall until the fourth turn? Against what decks? Goblins? Thresh definitely can't kill you by turn 4, they're just getting started. Combo you have 9 discard spells to work with and a Hyppie to lock them out if you managed to substantially disrupt them early, though that still is a scary matchup.

EDIT: YAY 400th Post!

[carnifex]

@ Hummingbird: maybe 1x Blossom in the mainboard to add to your enlightened tutor toolbox?

[Hummingbird TG]

Hmm I can consider it...but it seems to be only useful against Control, and I hardly want to topdeck it... in other cases it needs Jitte to work out, but to get the Jitte (preboard), I would need to use another E Tutor as its a one-off; thus isn't Blossom a little too unreliable main?

[Hummingbird TG]

Is Hoofprints of the Stag good? It's slow, but it's tutorable repeated threats against Landstill that aren't as inconsequential as 1/1s, and doesn't cost you life. But it's slow.

[Valarne]

Is Hoofprints of the Stag good? It's slow, but it's tutorable repeated threats against Landstill that aren't as inconsequential as 1/1s, and doesn't cost you life. But it's slow.

I would think that it is to slow, without any extra drawing going on (Confidant ability not being a draw, obviously). And as a topdeck it is awful!

[ImaBorgerman]

is it just me whom realized there seems to be less and less people or no one pilots this deck in tournies anymore...?

Seems to me people tends to opt for Eva Green or Rock Guy variants more instead... :(

Imho, i think what makes B/W Confidant special is the land destruction route... no?
And I've personally taken Hummingbird's advice and replaced Nantuko shades with Exalted Angels and so far it seems to be quite good :) Though occasionally I'm still caught in a dilemma whether those angels should be just Tombstalkers instead.

Your thoughts?

[raharu]

is it just me whom realized there seems to be less and less people or no one pilots this deck in tournies anymore...?

Seems to me people tends to opt for Eva Green or Rock Guy variants more instead... :(

Imho, i think what makes B/W Confidant special is the land destruction route... no?
And I've personally taken Hummingbird's advice and replaced Nantuko shades with Exalted Angels and so far it seems to be quite good :) Though occasionally I'm still caught in a dilemma whether those angels should be just Tombstalkers instead.

Your thoughts?

A) Maybe it's the 'unique' LD route that's making DeagGuy less viable in the current metagame? :rooleyes:

B) You could always run both, I presume. I don't see a problem with taking the deck into a more control/ late game agressor playstyle of deck.

In what I've been working with it's entirel viable to drop LD and force a war of attrition. I don't really have a slot for angels right now (although I'm not exactly looking either), but I could see running both the Exalteds and the 'Stalkers in the near future, and I've already dropped LD from my list, unless you really want to count Vindicate.

[Ghostfire45]

Any updates on this deck? What about Tidehollow Sculler?

[Valarne]

Well, here is an update - or at least an input.

I use Mox Diamonds instead of chromes or rituals. The hidden feat in doing this is the EE's set for 3. Whether this mox overall is better than the chromes, I'm not sure about though, as I haven't tested chrome. I run a land count of 23 partially due to being able to play the mox regularly. List (not carved in stone though):
Lands:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Plains
5 Swamps

Kill:
3 Exalted Angel
2 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw

Disrupt/removal:
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

Other:
3 SDT.

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 ? (Maybe Engineered Plague?)

In general, I think that the couple of MD 1-offs are justified because of the large amount of SDT-shuffling that tend to come about. The single Shriekmaw is nice to be able to recycle through Volraths S. The singleton Helm in the side, is for the rogue-win, only brought in when the leylines go in, obviously.
I like the deck, but feel that it can be better, aimed at a versatile meta. Any ideas?

[Hummingbird TG]

Well, here is an update - or at least an input.

I use Mox Diamonds instead of chromes or rituals. The hidden feat in doing this is the EE's set for 3. Whether this mox overall is better than the chromes, I'm not sure about though, as I haven't tested chrome. I run a land count of 23 partially due to being able to play the mox regularly. List (not carved in stone though):
Lands:

4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Volraths Stronghold
1 Plains
5 Swamps

Kill:
3 Exalted Angel
2 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant
1 Shriekmaw

Disrupt/removal:
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

Other:
3 SDT.

SB:
3 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
3 ? (Maybe Engineered Plague?)

In general, I think that the couple of MD 1-offs are justified because of the large amount of SDT-shuffling that tend to come about. The single Shriekmaw is nice to be able to recycle through Volraths S. The singleton Helm in the side, is for the rogue-win, only brought in when the leylines go in, obviously.
I like the deck, but feel that it can be better, aimed at a versatile meta. Any ideas?

Mox Diamond might look nice on paper, but I've tried it before and I really don't like what it does. While it does give you one mana, and of any color (thereby fixing your mana), enabling EE for 3 and all, and costs 0, and thereby is an accelerant, the problem with Mox Diamond is this. It's supposed to take a Mana Source slot, but it isn't a mana Source, just an accelerant, unlike Chrome Mox or Dark Ritual. Unlike Chrome Mox or Dark Rit, Mox Diamond forces you to have an additional land in hand to discard, in order to produce mana; this means that you net no mana out of Mox Diamond, and that it just makes your mana come down a turn sooner. This is only effective if you have more than one land in hand at a time, AND at the same time have a Mox Diamond. Sounds way too conditional to me. Also, note that with two lands and a Dark Rit you can cast 4 Mana spells, two lands and a Chrome Mox 3 Mana spells, but two lands and a Mox Diamond only 2 Mana spells; in other words, Mox Diamond actually stifles your mana development, not develops it; not something you'd want in a mana card. And as an accelerant? Accelerants aren't something the deck has space for, frankly, in my opinion, since the slots are tight enough as it is (and the deck is inconsistent enough as it is).

Another issue is the converted mana cost of your deck. Which looks. Absolutely. Suicidal. Angel is bad enough, but with 3 Angel, 2 Tombstalker, 4 Thoguhtseize and 8 fetches (and a Shriekmaw), your Dark Confidants are going to be doing you a lot of damage. Now in the past we could say that sticking a Dark Confidant generally means game since the cards would pull us a victory generally...but cards recently have gotten a lot more powerful; and Dark Confidant isn't the for-all-and-end-all creature it once was; now landing a Bob means you still have to dig for answers and live long enough to land them (not landing or keeping around a Bob, however, is as good as not playing the Bob (or playing any other two mana removal magnet) -- and as Bob is the main feature of the deck, this is definitely not an option); and therefore Dark Confidant has weakened in power greatly in relation to the metagame (also one must note that with the introduction of better creatures, games of magic have gotten faster, and therefore we have less life to lose to Dark Confidant).

Which brings me to the next point I want to make (which is not about your deck, however, just this archetype in general): Dark Confidant is what makes this deck special. However, he has been less than impressive for me recently; we take too much damage for him to be able to draw many cards, and if he doesn't draw any he isn't very useful. Just drawing a few cards just doesn't cut it anymore, unlike in the past, as we need better cards to keep up with the likes of the better threats in the metagame (as well as the more consistent decks which do not repeatedly draw dead disruption when they need answers) -- and playing better threats to allow drawing fewer cards to work isn't an option -- as they all cost a lot (by this i refer to high impact cards like Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, and Moat, as examples, or Shriekmaw, as good utility). This thereby creates a sort of vicious cycle, and a deck based on a Dark Confidant engine (barring amazing tempo generators, which are not white, nor black (in fact, they are blue (FoW, CB, cantrips (which set up good draws for keeping up with consistent tempo)), and green (Goyf)) is left with a viability that is, in this metagame, at best questionable (if it was even viable in the first place).

What's everyone's thoughts on this issue?

[Valarne]

@Hummingbird: Your thoughts on Chrome versus Diamond makes good sense. I'll test this for sure.

Lifeloss is actually rarely the biggest problem, as the angels very oftenly replenish my life. In tomorrows tourney I'll be trying 1 Runed Halo main, instead of the Shriekmaw though - considering that Shriekmaw in many cases will be targeting Goyf, and being a dead card with Geese, Noughts, Tombstalkers and Confidants - whereas the Halo (random as it is) can deal with the Ad Nauseam/Painter decks, or simply hold off one big stick.

Sidenote on Confidant: I try to wait him out if possible, and instead focus on Sinkholes, Hymns and Thoughtseizes. Thus aiming for getting the top online without losing to much life from Bob.

As you note, consistency is usually the problem. If the new TES/Nauseam decks find a firm dominant place, then maybe a modded Dead-guy can find his as well.

[Hummingbird TG]

Lifeloss is actually rarely the biggest problem, as the angels very oftenly replenish my life. In tomorrows tourney I'll be trying 1 Runed Halo main, instead of the Shriekmaw though - considering that Shriekmaw in many cases will be targeting Goyf, and being a dead card with Geese, Noughts, Tombstalkers and Confidants - whereas the Halo (random as it is) can deal with the Ad Nauseam/Painter decks, or simply hold off one big stick.

Which actually assumes you'll get an Angel to stick or do damage. Seeing as Angel is so vulnerable to creature removal, that's not always possible (and unlike Confidant, Angel is actually a threat that's better than Goyf, therefore sticking an Angel alone should win you the game -- the problem is in cases where you don't get the Angel (Tombstalker isn't as spectacular as Angel))...

[Valarne]

As above stated, I took Deadguy for a spin today. Changes from the list I posted a couple of posts earlier in the thread were:
Chrome Moxes instead of Mox Diamonds
Runed Halo instead of Shriekmaw
2 Hypnotic Specters and an Extirpate instead of Swamp, Swamp, Bloodstained Mire
Sideboard:
4 True Believers, 4 Engineered Plague, 1 Jotun Grunt, 3 Engineered Explosives, 3 Pithing Needle.

The tournament consisted of 26-28 players approx. My hands-down assessment of the meta was:
3-4 Ad Nauseam
1 Doomsday Combo
2 Ichorid
3-4 RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo
1 Survival
2-3 Stiflenought
1 Deadguy (me)
3-4 Non-goblin Tribal decks
2 Vial Goblins
1 Dragon Stompy
1 Burn/Counter
and some i didn't see, or forgot.

I went 4-1 in the swiss, won the quarter and lost the semi. 5-2 in all.
0-2 Ichorid
2-0 Dragon Stompy
2-0 Survival
2-1 Vial Goblins
2-0 Vial Goblins
--
2-1 RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo
0-2 RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo
The final was a mirror, and they split prizes.

From the side I enjoyed EE, EP and a bit of needle. Chrome Moxen were golden, thanks Hummingbird! The inclusion of Specters very nice as well.
SB Afterthoughts: Had I known that the newish RGw Zoo deck would have prevailed (fueled by Wild Nacatl, Lavamancers, Fanatics, Kird Apes, Goyf and 1cc burn) then Chalice of the Void would have been chosen instead of True Believer. The sideboard would then be, in this meta, really strong.

[Hummingbird TG]

The one-of Extirpate seems random...what do you generally use it on? Your list seems nice though, I think I'll try it out... Congratulations on the Top 8, though. Sadly it wasn't enough players to qualify for a tournament for the DtB forum... Are you going to be writing a Tournament Report? XD

[Valarne]

The one-of Extirpate seems random...what do you generally use it on? Your list seems nice though, I think I'll try it out... Congratulations on the Top 8, though. Sadly it wasn't enough players to qualify for a tournament for the DtB forum... Are you going to be writing a Tournament Report? XD

Thanks! I can't argue with 1 Extirpate being a bit random, but I felt that it would fit the empty spot better than the fourth STP for instance, since I was expecting TES/ANT and Ichorid, were I'm almost dead in the water Game 1. The Vindicate can serve as creature-removal in a tight spot (preferably LD), so I'm not too concerned with that. I never got to use the Extirpate really, other than to imprint on the Mox - but it did that just fine:). The single Engineered Explosives was great. It really felt good having it, and several times - blowing it up. I'll just do a superficial report here - I sadly don't have the time the next couple of days for in-depth writing.
Rd 1: Ichorid.
G1: On my heels, never got a chance. Discard and LD spells useless. Sitting duck!
G2: I actually thought I had this one - I removed some of his Bridges, and his few lands, and I was pounding several times with my E. Angel. Then he manages to dread return a Simic Sky Swallower...

Rd 2: Dragon Stompy.
G1: He mulls to five, and I easily decimate his few landdrops, while securing a strong board. Angel ftw.
G2: Again I pound his first lands and turn 1 Magus of the Moon (thanks Chrome Mox) - and continue domination, helped by him drawing to few lands. Angel ftw.

Rd 3: Survival.
G1: It seems pretty 50/50 on the board, exchanging Bobs and stuff. But his life steadily goes down, and it ends faster than I had feared. His survival gets online too late, btw.
G2: I put on the early pressure with 1st turn Mox and stuff (did that in many games). Clear two birds (EE) and two nonbasics in one turn - easy from then on.

Rd 4: Vial Goblins.
G1: I'm pretty screwed, pretty fast.
G2: Engineered Plague makes it much easier.
G3: ----"----- ( I think I had two of these bad boys in one of the games.)

Rd 5: Vial Goblins.
Rd 1: Amazingly I won this preboard dreaded Matchup. He draws a lot of Rishadan ports, so I can single out his few mountains and Vials with Sinkhole/Vindicate. Wonderful.
Rd 2: I just had to make sure that there would be Engineered Plague in the starting hand. There were two!

Quarters: RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo.
G1: On my heels. Not too happy about all his threats. Can't do much either. A brave young Tombstalker tries to fend off the inevitable. No such luck.
G2: Tight, but I manage to weasel my way out thanks to EE and Angel ftw. Landdestruction paved the way though.
G3: Much the same as G2. Tight but again Landdestruction minimized the amount of threats, so EE and Angel could seal the deal.

Semi: Again RGw GoyfSligh/Zoo.
G1: Not a chance for me.
G2: Sadly my land/mox drop stopped at two before I could sweep his horde with EE. Could have been won...

I hope this brief report is better than nothing.

Cheers!

(By the way - I'm gonna try and go for the fourth Angel in place of one of the Tombstalkers. She's almost always prefered, I think. And concerning randomness - I think that the inclusion of Chrome Mox makes one-offs/few-offs much more ok, seeing as it presents you with a choice which card to imprint. If you have a bit more of a versatile deck than just 4-offs, then that choice becomes more decisive. Useless cards have a place were they are needed! Not taking this to the extreme, only concerning a few versatile silverbullets, such as Extirpate, Jotun Grunt, Runed Halo and so on.

[Valarne]

Another thing.

I haven't figured out what strategy, especially sideboardwise, that can handle Thresh. What is your thoughts on this? I guess that the ones with CounterTop might become prevalent, in response to TES/ANT. We can use UG Thresh for common reference - Goyf, Geese, CounterTop, FoW, Daze, Stifle main perhaps, etc.

Looking forward!

[Hummingbird TG]

My idea is to just stick an Exalted Angel. They don't have much that deal with Exalted Angels -- the fear is just that they kill her. Now against UG we have less of a problem than, say, UGw, UGb, or even UGr, as UG can't kill an Angel except with Jitte; however the idea is generally that if you can get an Exalted Angel to sweep the board, she will probably singlehandedly dominate it (able to race two 4/5 Goyfs or one bigger Goyf ftw); and the lifegain buys us turns to draw answers to kill them with (or another Angel!) Note that CB doesn't counter Angels, either.

I still think we have a horrible Thresh matchup. Most builds with some form of removal whatsoever (e.g. UGw and it's Swords) can destroy us simply by countering whatever we have that is relevant, then killing whatever that's left. It seems to be a sad fact that we just lose to blue-based tempo decks, as they have more Free-effects than us (and theirs are more powerful that that Black would ever have -- Counter a Spell for a card or bouncing an Island, compared to the best black free-spell - which does what? Kill a nonblack guy for 4 life?) and thus generate more tempo than us and reach a state whereby they have beatz and boardcontrol faster...

EDIT: Nice report, btw. Thanks! I enjoyed reading it.

[Valarne]

My idea is to just stick an Exalted Angel. They don't have much that deal with Exalted Angels -- the fear is just that they kill her. Now against UG we have less of a problem than, say, UGw, UGb, or even UGr, as UG can't kill an Angel except with Jitte; however the idea is generally that if you can get an Exalted Angel to sweep the board, she will probably singlehandedly dominate it (able to race two 4/5 Goyfs or one bigger Goyf ftw); and the lifegain buys us turns to draw answers to kill them with (or another Angel!) Note that CB doesn't counter Angels, either.

I still think we have a horrible Thresh matchup. Most builds with some form of removal whatsoever (e.g. UGw and it's Swords) can destroy us simply by countering whatever we have that is relevant, then killing whatever that's left. It seems to be a sad fact that we just lose to blue-based tempo decks, as they have more Free-effects than us (and theirs are more powerful that that Black would ever have -- Counter a Spell for a card or bouncing an Island, compared to the best black free-spell - which does what? Kill a nonblack guy for 4 life?) and thus generate more tempo than us and reach a state whereby they have beatz and boardcontrol faster...

EDIT: Nice report, btw. Thanks! I enjoyed reading it.

Maybe a Chalice at 1 (boarded in instead of Thoughtseize/SDT?) could be a good choice then. Would shut down Geese and Cantrips and the STP especially.
Explosives at two and spot removal for out-of-hand Goyfs.

[Aboroth]

..I'll report after the German Legacy Championships.

Sorry, no time for German Legacy Champs, because my daughter was born.


Now I took the time to play the "Gaming, Etc. Revised Dual-Constructed" Tournament at PT Berlin.

My list during tournament:

Dark Weenie (60)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold (2 wins)
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
4 Dark Confidant
1 Figure of Destiny (i had only 1 )
4 Serra Avenger
4 Duress
3 Vindicate
3 Silver Knight
3 Mother of Runes
3 Spectral Lynx
3 Jötun Grunt
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Ajani Goldmane (Never Seen.)

Sideboard (15)

4 Tidehollow Sculler (Next time maindeck.)
3 Armageddon
3 Extirpate
3 Disenchant
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Vindicate

______________

Matchups
UWB Fish Draw
Sui Black Win
Eva Green Win
UGR Threshold Win
Armageddon Stax Win
Dreaded Fish? Lost
UW Landstill Win
Merfolk Win