[Deck] Survival

[chokin]

Caldera Hellion is probably better. He can nom Birds and other guys that would die anyways. Hits Threshed Mongeese, too.

But Di is right, Masticore is likely the best choice.

I have been outdone. Sigh. You guys get cookies.

[frogboy]

Caldera Hellion, although I have no idea how relevant nuking all your own creatures would be.

edit: my pony too slow.

[Adan]

But Di is right, Masticore is likely the best choice.

Confirmed, though I still got barbecued by Zoo via EOT Lightning Bolt and double-Tribal Flames for lethal 13 damage total the turn after I nuked all of his creatures.

Masticore makes Rofellos even more broken than he already is.

[Tacosnape]

Masticore also makes Survival pump Tarmogoyfs at instant speed, which is random and tricky.

For, you know, all those games where a non-cantripping Aggressive Urge effect makes a difference when you've already got Survival and Tarmogoyf on the board.

[ebbitten]

This sounds incredibly lazy but i've scrolled through the last 6 pages and can't find Di's list. Would anyone mind posting it?

[Jak]

4 Survival of the Fittest
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sensei's Divining Top

1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Genesis

2 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Shriekmaw
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Masticore
1 Harmonic Sliver

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
3 Forest

This is the most recent one that I found.

[Di]

Masticore also makes Survival pump Tarmogoyfs at instant speed, which is random and tricky.

For, you know, all those games where a non-cantripping Aggressive Urge effect makes a difference when you've already got Survival and Tarmogoyf on the board.

You wouldn't believe how often I do this. I randomly use Masticore to pump my Tarmogoyfs a good amount of the time. It's actually quite useful, but then again, I wasn't exactly sure if you're being sarcastic or not.


Regarding the list, it's slightly different. I decided to add an additional land (basic Forest) so I'm up to 21, but the card being cut is still in question. For now it's the maindeck Gaddock Teeg and it's squeezed into the sideboard, but I'm still trying different things. I've also been looking into a 3rd Cabal Therapy maindeck, but there's really not much that I'm contemplating reconsidering. Possibly the 2nd Nimble Mongoose, I dunno. I don't want to cut him, but at the same time he's the weakest slot in the deck. The amount of times I actually go to fetch Mongeese is almost as high as I get Tarmogoyfs. Meh, I'll figure it out later.

[MattH]

I tried a build using Martyr of Ashes as a Clasm-creature once, it wasn't TOO bad. Whomped on Dreadstill, threshold, and Goblins really well, but kind of sucked nuts against aggro-loam, enchantress, and anything combo.

[Tao]

I tried a build using Martyr of Ashes as a Clasm-creature once, it wasn't TOO bad. Whomped on Dreadstill, threshold, and Goblins really well, but kind of sucked nuts against aggro-loam, enchantress, and anything combo.

Against Enchantress a Pyroclasm effect is gold because it is the only way to kill their key card Argothian Enchantress! It is not bad against Ichorid Combo (RFG bridges, clears the board at instant speed) or ETW token, too.

But I don't see why it is good against Threshold (killing Geese is hard, killing Goyf nearly impossible) or Dreadstill?!?

[MattH]

Against Enchantress a Pyroclasm effect is gold because it is the only way to kill their key card Argothian Enchantress! It is not bad against Ichorid Combo (RFG bridges, clears the board at instant speed) or ETW token, too.

But I don't see why it is good against Threshold (killing Geese is hard, killing Goyf nearly impossible) or Dreadstill?!?

Sorry I should have been clearer; I was talking about the deck overall, not the Martyr itself.

The 'clasm effect was okay against enchantress (assuming the draw effect they kept in their opening hand was Argothian and not Presence), but the deck overall was [a] terrible [matchup], because it was R/G only - no black, white, or blue, which means no real disruption against enchantress - no discard or counters, and no miscellaneous effects like Teeg or Canonist to mess with them (and no Harmonic Sliver chain).

The cards that made Dreadstill and Threshold good were the MD 4 Vexing Shusher and 4 Vials that made Counterbalance a joke, and Chalice of the Void, which shuts down tons of stuff.

[bigbear102]

If Enchantress is a big concern in your meta (???) then Burning Wish is probably the best answer you have. You can grab Reverent Silence or Pyroclasm. It lets you get whatever you need against the deck. Deed is also an option, but I think Wish is more versatile and useful in more matches.

I also agree with the idea that Masticore is the best choice for the sweeper slot. Not only does it act as a sweeper in some matches, it gives your goyfs the advantage, and is a very good beater on its own. He can win Goyf battles on his own which is pretty important. With Rofellos he kills every creature in the format besides maybe Dreadnaught and Goose.

I think that the 2nd Goose is the most flexible card in Di's list. I cut it a while ago and haven't missed it.

[Shabbaman]

You wouldn't believe how often I do this. I randomly use Masticore to pump my Tarmogoyfs a good amount of the time. It's actually quite useful, but then again, I wasn't exactly sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

Have you tried Tidehollow sculler? It'd complement the discard suite and buff Tarmogoyf. Ethersworn canonist is artifact as well. Sorry if I'm pointing out the obvious.

[bigbear102]

Sculler seems pretty weak. Playing 6-8 actual discard spells seems better to me.

I do play Canonist in my board for the Combo matchup, as it slows them down at least 1 turn because they have to wish to kill it, giving you time to find another answer.

[Swing4Five]

What do people's sideboard's look like at this point for a wide open (say.... TMLO4 :-P) meta?

Maybe something like (for 4 color, no B.Wish):
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg (with one main)
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Tormod's Crypt OR Extirpate OR Yixlid Jailer
3 Macabre Faerie
3 Engineered Plauge
?

[bigbear102]

You do not want 3 Canonist, it is only good against combo, and it costs 2 against them, so you will probably lose before then.

My SB changes from event to event, but it will probably look something like this at TMLO4:

1 Gaddock Teeg (1 main)
2-3 Krosan Grip
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Faerie Macabre
3-4 Chant (much better than Canonist early on, I play 1 canonist as a lock creature, but these are to survive early)
1-2 magus of the Moon
1-2 Spike Feeder/Darkheart Sliver

If you expect lots of Goblins then play E. Plague. I haven't faced them that often lately, and depending on their build you should have a decent match against them even without Plague. It's a personal preference. If I see lots of little red men around before the tourney it'll be in my board too.

I like the grave hate package of 3 crypt, 1 Faerie, 1 Jailer. They are all good in different situations. Crypt is the overall hate card, best against Ichorid because it is quick. Macabre is good because it recurs and can hit specific cards you don't want, not as good against Ichorid, but decent against Loam and decks w/ Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins engines. Jailer is the card you want in the mirror or against Ichorid. It completely stops Ichorid, but is only a 1 of because it costs 2 and we need to stop them early, that's why there are 3 crypts.

Teeg is anti-control and comes in against combo too.

Grip is Grip

Feeder/Darkheart come in against fast aggro/burn/goblins

Magus is anti-control/thresh

I explained my position on Canonist. The Chants stop early on, Canonist seals the deal. Much like Crypt/Jailer against Ichorid.

Chant is a very narrow card though, and I would highly recommend testing it before using it, as some people really don't like it in this type of deck. Other possibilities for the anti-combo slot are more discard, Chalice, or more Teeg/Canonist, again not something I highly recommend.

Teeg is also not an anti-combo card. It is there for control. With Grapeshot being used now, Teeg will rarely slow Combo down enough to do much. Sometimes when combined with targeted discard it can be enough, but I much prefer Canonist for the combo match. That being said, you should always bring in any extra copies as he is a speed bump they must deal with in order to win, and you should have plenty of dead removal maindeck.

[Swing4Five]

Good logic, thanks.

Also just had a thought, would Chrome Mox be a bad choice agianst something like combo? Trading some card-disadvantage for the ability to get your hate online faster. There probably isn't room for the slots in the board, but as an excersise say you had 18 slots, would this be a bad idea?

[Tacosnape]

Good logic, thanks.

Also just had a thought, would Chrome Mox be a bad choice agianst something like combo? Trading some card-disadvantage for the ability to get your hate online faster. There probably isn't room for the slots in the board, but as an excersise say you had 18 slots, would this be a bad idea?

I've always liked this idea. Never enough to actually do it seriously, but hypothetically it's pretty sexy. Not only would it be solid against combo, it'd also help on the play against any deck packing Thoughtseize/Duress/Therapy by allowing you to drop a Survival before they got a move. I say test it and tell us what you come up with.

[Jak]

Hmm if you add Mox, do you go down to 18 lands or something?

[MattH]

Good logic, thanks.

Also just had a thought, would Chrome Mox be a bad choice agianst something like combo? Trading some card-disadvantage for the ability to get your hate online faster. There probably isn't room for the slots in the board, but as an excersise say you had 18 slots, would this be a bad idea?

I'd first try it in, like, some deck with multiple Dorans...

[bigbear102]

I understand the idea of Chrome Mox, and will probably test it myself, but the problem is that there are usually very few *extra* cards in the opening hand. Against combo it would make sense, as you do want to get hate online quickly. Against everything else I think the card disadvantage would not make up for the speed.

Getting around discard is easy when you play Top, Confidant, Survival, your own discard, and Witness.

On the other hand, in a more Rockish build (only gbw), Mox could be decent as you could play 2-3 Doran, Sculler, Darkheart, Harmonic, Teeg... the list goes on. I would probably make the deck a more aggressive build to take full advantage of Mox, e.g. Sculler over one of the discard slots. Turn 1 Survival w/ eot activation makes me happy.