[Deck] Elf Glimpse Staff

[yawg07]

I honestly (and I know I'll get attacked for this) haven't fallen in love with Priest of Titania for the current style of kill.
It seems sacrilegious NOT to run Priest, but it seems too ... slow.
WHAT? Yes. Honestly, I like to be able to just drop the hammer and explode all in one turn without worrying about needing
to wait a turn for the largest removal magnet in elf history to go active.

In the list I've been running, my general plan vs. countermagic/threshold is to simply board in Choke and Elvish Champion and then go aggro on their ass.

If anyone is interested, here is what I've been working with ...

// Lands
13 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle

// Creatures
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal Force
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Viridian Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Grapeshot
3 Weird Harvest

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Viridian Shaman
SB: 3 Elvish Champion
SB: 2 City of Solitude
SB: 3 Caller of the Claw
SB: 3 Gaea's Herald
SB: 3 Choke

I started off by cloning the winning list for 1.x and adapting the landbase to 1.5.
Then I hated it and wanted to try and just nullify Wasteland effects altogether, may just be a meta call, but the card is DAMN popular where I play.

Honestly, the deck doesn't need very many non-extended cards. o_0
I've tried Natural Order, Living Wish, Eladamri's Call, Worldly Tutor, etc
The best cards are tried and true Weird Harvest and Chord of Calling.

Also, in Legacy, I'd strongly suggest the Grapeshot kill.
If they Stifle it, play E.Witness and get it back. OR just wreck them next turn with an attack.
Dragon is just too vulnerable as a kill, too many 1-cost or free removal. Also, FoW on the win card sucks.

I've only played the deck in two actual tourneys and the lists are drastically different.

22-man I got in Top 8 but lost to the decks biggest nemesis, AGGRO LOAM
9-man I got 1st and was happy :D

After all the testing and the two tourneys, the weakest card is honestly Elvish Visionary, just because of it's being unpredictable.
I'll feel like cutting it, but then the Wirewood Symbiote synergy is just nuts, and sometimes the kill IS at the bottom and
you need to fudge numbers a bit to make sure you don't commit draw-suicide.
17 cards left, eh? Okay, I'll play the 4th Glimpse, and then 3 elves and a Visionary, gg?

I plan on playing it a lot more, it is an absolute BLAST to play.
It also combats hate really well, my SB changes may be ...

-2 City of Solitude
+2 Krosan Grip


---

Just last night, in a game vs. Canadian Thresh, game one I did the combo thing, but "fizzled".
He took his turn and did nothing of importance, staring down 15 elves.
He passed, I tapped cradle, payed for two Summoners pacts, took 7 burn and attacked for the win.
Game two, he boards in the 'clasms/whatnot. I bring in 3x Choke, 3x Elvish Champion.
I get Choke to land, attacking for a few each turn. He kills off my Symbiote so I can't block down the 'Goyf.
I draw and resolve Elvish Champion. Next turn, I Weird Harvest for Champion #2 and now all my elves are not only unblockable, but also clasm proof. Game.

[badjuju]

snip

Thanks for the awesome post, yawg.

After some more thought, the Dragon win might not be as viable. I just like it because it can be used at instant speed, forces them to counter Chord (which doesn't sacrifice anything), and uses Hivemaster in the deck.

I'm not sure I'd say Visionary is the weakest elf, because I'm never sad to see it. In a combo deck without lots of draw, cantripping, or manipulation, Visionary becomes pivotal for finding your key pieces, and drawing even more cards when going off. As you've mentioned before, Visionary has insane synergy with Symbiote, and that alone should warrant the card's inclusion.

But agreed on everything else, especially Priest of Titania.

[Noman Peopled]

I honestly (and I know I'll get attacked for this) haven't fallen in love with Priest of Titania for the current style of kill.

I'm not sure you will. Priest is something the deck simply doesn't need.

In the list I've been running, my general plan vs. countermagic/threshold is to simply board in Choke and Elvish Champion and then go aggro on their ass.

No Jittes? Is there a reason for you not running them?
Gaea's Herald seems ... odd. Any testing experiences? If you go aggro, I can imagine Shusher being a lot better in this spot as it won't eat Snare. While it needs mana to use, it also comes with a 2/2 body. Vial would protect you from countermagic as well, is cheaper, and does combat tricks (and will be killed by EE for 1 along with most of your board).
Heh, I'm assuming you have a lot of blue in your meta? And little combo, from the looks of it ... (What's your goldfish?)

I also agree with cutting Dragon (even in Extended, it always seemed kind of flashy to me). I wouldn't worry about FoW (should be used erlier, else your opponent is facing a bunch of Elves anyway) but removal, kicked Chants, Moat, etc can ruin your day.
I assume you have considered Brain Freeze, which would allow you to piggyback your opponent's combo and ignore your opponent's life total. Grapeshot can get rid of troublesome creatures, though, so if I'm guessing your meta correctly, Grapeshot seems better.

I'll feel like cutting it, but then the Wirewood Symbiote synergy is just nuts, and sometimes the kill IS at the bottom and
you need to fudge numbers a bit to make sure you don't commit draw-suicide.

While that's an issue, I would accept the possibility of fizzling rather than play a card that I feel is suboptimal (although I'm not sure it is). See Dredge or AdN. Especially since fizzling with this deck means you have a lot of Elves and merely have to live another turn. Is there a creature that could act as both win condition and setup card (and is better at it than Arch-Druid :p )?

Hm, against red-based aggro-control with sweepers, I think Fecundity may be better than Elvish Champion or Caller because the former can be tutored as a singleton anyway (one's a must with the amount of Goyfs) and Fecundity makes removal (especially mass removal) a liability if you leave the combo in. (Or, if you play 2 Callers, Fecundity increases your chances of drawing into it.) Of course, this is assuming they don't have Chalices at 1 and 3 (to ill the combo and Shaman, respectively) and the Clasm doesn't allow them to attack for lethal.
What's your metagame? I can see this deck being a poor choice if there's a lot of combo running around ...

[NCM]

Be honest guys, you just hate 2-drops that aren't tutors. jk lol

But seriously, the more I play with Priest, the more copies of it I ended up cutting, and the more I realized that synergy with Symbiote and it's general goodness doesn't compensate for the fact that it is slow. I used to think it's role in the deck was analogous to Time Walk in Type One combo - a card that you don't want to draw while going off, but it helps you a lot before then. Now I realize it's more like Darksteel Colossus in Type One combo - a card that you don't want to draw.

Visionary, on the other hand, has been good to me. I have her as a 3-of in my deck and I find that it's an ok configuration. I definitely wouldn't cut it from the deck entirely but I could see going down to 2. Visionary also gets around Chalice for 1, which is somewhat significant. It's not the first thing I want to see while comboing off, but it's still a great thing to have.

I never thought the Dragon kill was particularly good in Legacy. Too much stuff can stop it.

I actually don't like Aether Vial in this deck, and I'm a huge Aether Vial fan, so this is saying a lot. Aether Vial just seems like it could get one of your combo pieces through turn 2 for free, but you have to waste turn 1 to do it. You already have 8 Llanowar Elves and the only thing Aether Vial would really do is give you 4 more that can't attack, tap to Rangers or Druid, or even give you cards off Glimpse. In an extremely control heavy meta I might consider it. Otherwise, I don't recommend it at all.

Fecundity is a very good idea. It was in Zatlkaj's board on it's own and in Saito's list with Blasing Station, presumably for the lulz. For those of us who don't choose to go the aggro route game 2, this is probably the best option against mass removal.

One other thing to remember about Brainfreeze is that it usually doesn't take as high of a storm count to be lethal as Grapeshot. On the other hand, this is a format with Dredge and Gaea's Blessing, so it may be bestto just stick with Grapeshot.

Is there a creature that could act as both win condition and setup card (and is better at it than Arch-Druid :p )?

Well idk if this has been mentioned before but Regal Force IS a 5/5...just sayin'...

Also, I just remembered Indrik Stomphowler, which would do the same thing as Harmonic Sliver in my deck but allow me to go mono-green. The downside of this is that it's very unlikely that I'll even be able to play it without Elves already on the board. Thoughts?

Ugh. It's really easy to come up with tech for a deck as customizable as this one, but hard to come up with good tech.

This basically sums up the thread.

[Illissius]

There's nothing at all wrong with not liking Priest in this deck. When the deck revolves around pseudohaste from Birchlore Rangers and Heritage Druid, a two mana creature which does nothing the turn you play it clearly doesn't fit. One thought I had is using Survival as one of the tutors along with a single copy each of Anger and Priest, so you can do crazy Symbiote/Ranger/Priest tricks if you draw it, but doesn't get in the way as much if you don't.

[Noman Peopled]

Be honest guys, you just hate 2-drops that aren't tutors. jk lol

That's some evil profiling, man! I also like Cabal Ritual.
Oh, and Goyf.

@ Aether Vial: I think it's something to consider if you really like the combo route and face a lot of blue. Specifically, it's better with Weird Harvest than Chord. Of course, that can be countered, and it makes you more vulnerable to EE at 1 (and helps against Chalice at 1 only on the play).
Plus there's the question if you shouldn't be going aggro in the first place.

Fecundity is a very good idea. It was in Zatlkaj's board on it's own and in Saito's list with Blasing Station, presumably for the lulz. For those of us who don't choose to go the aggro route game 2, this is probably the best option against mass removal.

I actually like it for the combo kill as well. It forces your opponent to have a way to deal with the combo if he wants to EE/Clasm/DD/etc any sizeable amount of Elves and it allows you to chump easily. Again, the question is whether another strategy wouldn't be better. I mean, almost any deck (bar combo without BWish) can whip out mass removal, but boarding Fecundity in any time it might be useful is likely wrong (else it would warrant a maindeck spot, and then we want an outlet, and ... uh ... there's no good one in green, and few synergistic ones overall).

@ Brain Freeze: good point about the lower storm count needed. when is the last time you saw Blessing, though? Freeze can also randomly screw AdN (as well as other combos with few win conditions) and topdeck-tutors. I'd still run Grapeshot probably, but it's a meta thing.
As for Dredge, Freeze still needs fewer storm then Grapeshot. If they're decked, they're decked. Only thing Grapeshot does that Freeze can't is kill a creature or two (unless there's a Bridge in the yard already).
The big plus of Grapeshot I think is that it can be used as disruption vs Mage/Teeg/Canonist and also support the beatdown plan.

Well idk if this has been mentioned before but Regal Force IS a 5/5...just sayin'...

I meant as a combo finish. Like Entity (makes you go "infinite", which may or may not be necessary depending on the situation; and it provides an instant win post-combo provided you had a critter at the beginning of your turn and no opposing chump-blockers). Entity isn't what I'm looking for, either, though. Something that can kill post-combo but doesn't suck for the aggro plan, you know?

@Stomphowler: I had considered it but I think against the decks in which enchantment hate is needed, a white splash (which could also get Chant/Abeyance and Serenity) is easier to support than a 5C hate card. Now, if you want to play for fat primarily and catch-all secondarily, it might be quite good.
How about Wickerbough Elder, though? It's unlikely not to find any targets should you need a power boost. It can destroy stuff long after it's started beating. Opposing Needles should name something else, anyway (and if not, there's always Shamans).

[NCM]

One thought I had is using Survival as one of the tutors along with a single copy each of Anger and Priest, so you can do crazy Symbiote/Ranger/Priest tricks if you draw it, but doesn't get in the way as much if you don't.

Survival could make for a very good search engine, if only because it's reusable. Discarding a 2-drop for a combo piece could be a great thing, and the combo you described is a great way to deal with Priest's disadvantages. There are several concerns though.

Card advantage is the most minor issue but still one that should be addressed. There are a lot of ways of getting around it, the one that I like the most being Dryad Harbor since you can basically go from discarding creatures to discarding lands.

Pithing Needle is also an issue. It's unlikely that they'll be packing both Needle and Chalice for 1 against you but either one of these plus Plague, Counterbalance, or a boardsweeper is a lot more likely.

There's also the issue of speed. Running Survival would be great for consistency but it has the same problem Priest does in that it takes up your entire turn 2 which you could just as easily use to win.

Don't get me wrong, I like the concept of Survival. It opens up a bunch of opportunities like grabbing Caller of the Claw at instant speed after your board is wiped. I guess my problem is just that I'm having trouble visualizing a list.

I thought Survival was banned in Legacy. Man, I'm behind the times.

@ Noman Peopled - Fecundity isn't about which decks can run mass removal but instead it's about which decks have to use mass removal to stop you without significantly changing their gameplan. And I didn't want Stomphowler as a fatty but as utility and I realize that splashing white is a better option. The only reason I tried it was because I wanted to try and consolidate my manabase to being mono-green to fight Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon/Wasteland, which I suppose are minor inconveniences, but still.

[Wobbles The Goose]

Herald stops chalice and counterbalance. Shusher "does", but it doesn't do it so that you can actually still go off. These cards are huge problems and require a maindeck answer.

Vial isn't right for this deck.

Brainfreeze is probably fine in certain metagames (lots of solidarity, maybe?), but you can't piggy back well of the majority of combo decks because you need to race them, not leaving elves untapped during their turn on the hopes that they misplay while killing you. Meanwhile grapeshot has benefits when you are going aggro, kills creatures, dodges Gaea's blessing, and is almost always as lethal.

yawg07, if your metagame has a lot of aggroloam or Thresh w/ red I suggest splashing white for burrington forgetender and orim's chant. Forgetender is a great answer to clasms and devistating dreams. If the removal you are facing is EE, try viridian shaman.

Another card that I really like is Wilt-leaf liege, as it's bigger than champion and survives the pyroclasms in the first place. The conventional aggro plan post board is what really what separates this deck from other combo decks in the format.

I understand your concern about Wasteland. It was a major pain when I first started with it. I think 6-8 fetchlands with 1-2 duals is the way to beat it, while still being able to splash what you need.

On Survival, it's interesting. But not better than the current tutor engines and worthless in multiples. Fetching an anger would be cool, but having to have a mountain is a real pain for this deck, because wasteland is a drag.

[NCM]

Another card that I really like is Wilt-leaf liege, as it's bigger than champion and survives the pyroclasms in the first place. The conventional aggro plan post board is what really what separates this deck from other combo decks in the format.

I'm not sure about this. It seems good in theory but an important aspect of Champ is that he also makes them unblockable against Goyf decks (ie. many decks). I think this is another guy that we can put into the "metagame call" category.

[1maarten1]

im testing arround with the list posten on the top of this page. Only changes i made was in the sb -2 city's + 2k.grips and -3 herald +3 shusher. Havent tested it very much yet but it seems nice :) thoughts on his list??

~Maarten

[NCM]

im testing arround with the list posten on the top of this page. Only changes i made was in the sb -2 city's + 2k.grips and -3 herald +3 shusher. Havent tested it very much yet but it seems nice :) thoughts on his list??

~Maarten

I don't know about Grips vs Cities (for all I know it's a metagame call), but I'm pretty sure we've established that, in this deck, Gaea's Herald is almost always a better choice than Shusher. It's not nearly as mana hungry and can actually allow you to go off next turn, unlike Shusher who adds 1 onto the cost of all your spells. It's also an elf.

Eh, I guess I might as well post my new list.

Maindeck:
Mana:
5 Forest
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Pendlehaven
2 Savannah
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Elves:
4 Birchlore Rangers
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary

Draw/Search:
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Glimpse of Nature
2 Living Wish
2 Weird Harvest

Kill:
1 Eternal Witness
1 Grapeshot

SB:
Combo Helpers:
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Storm Entity
1 Eternal Witness
1 Regal Force

Toolbox:
1 Elvish Champion
1 Harmonic Sliver

Stuff I Actually Board In:
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Fecundity
3 Krosan Grip

The thing about only running 2 Living Wish is that you can't have a huge toolbox, but now that I think about it more I see that I never really needed one anyway aside from just the essential extra combo pieces. Xantid Swarm is still in there over Orim's Chant simply because I can grab him with Wish. However, if I were running 3 Harvest, 0 Wish, and a partial toolbox maindeck, my board would look more like:

2 Elvish Champion
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Orim's Chant
3 Fecundity
3 Krosan Grip

[Noman Peopled]

im testing arround with the list posten on the top of this page. Only changes i made was in the sb -2 city's + 2k.grips and -3 herald +3 shusher. Havent tested it very much yet but it seems nice :) thoughts on his list??

There's nothing I would change in the maindeck before testing, except maybe fiddling with some numbers (not the engine, obv). Unless you want a Chord version, then you'd probably want Wirewood Hivemaster; or unless you want a splash.

As for the board, I can't say much about that. Having never tested Shusher, I'd have to guess how much it slows down the combo. Gaea's Herald is decidedly better against Chalice (especially when paired with 3sphere). Against Countertop, I suspect removal will become plentiful in both cases, since you spent two mana on not playing combo pieces and CounterTop rapes us all on its own, especially once a 3CC spell is arrived at. In this case, not having to pay for Shusher's ability may be marginally better (again depending on your game plan to a certain degree).
Besides, I'm very susceptible to overly cool stuff so I'' just provide a short list of cards I'd definitely test in the side of a mono-G version (plus the ones already mentioned):
Fecundity
Jitte
Needle (EE, Deed)
Xantid Swarm (dies to removal but that still makes your other targets safer)
Defense Grid (might be better than CoS overall, but there's Snare and CounterTop)
Thorn of Amethyst (what's the master plan against fast combo, anyway?)



@ Danger of Cool Things:
I was thinking about going Leyline/two Regal Force/multiple Fierce Empaths post-board against heavy blue. Someone shoot that one down for me so I don't have to try it :p

[NCM]

Thorn of Amethyst (what's the master plan against fast combo, anyway?)

My plan is...oh shit, I don't have one. I guess I could run Orim's Chant instead of Xantid Swarm and use it in response to their draw spell (or in Ad Nauseam's case, the upkeep of the turn after they play AdN)? Thorn is definitely the best option though, save maybe for Brain Freeze on them after they've drawn enough of their deck, but this is unlikely since you'd probably only be running 1 Brain Freeze.

@ Danger of Cool Things:
I was thinking about going Leyline/two Regal Force/multiple Fierce Empaths post-board against heavy blue. Someone shoot that one down for me so I don't have to try it :p

The Timmy in me likes Regal Force and Leyline is a very solid card, but Fierce Empath is so much worse than every other search spell that's been mentioned so far in this thread. On top of that, I really don't see Regal Force ever being run as more than a 1-of ever, except in place of Mycoloth if you're running LSV's list verbatim.

Also, does anyone have any concrete (read: specific) matchup data yet? We really need to sort that out as much as possible in order to fully understand what to have in the sideboard.

[georgjorge]

The deck seems good, but what happens if you just don't draw a Glimpse or it gets Forced ? Without Glimpse, it looks like it would play like a crappy Aggro deck with a lot of unused mana on the board (Heritage, Birchlore, Visionary etc aren't exactly beatdown creatures). Which is why I think the idea of playing Survival is great, as it gives you essentially additional ways to combo out (well, maybe not combo like killing the opponent in one turn, but like gaining insane amounts of card advantage over a short time). To a lesser extent, Natural Order can provide that as well by fetching a Hellkite Overlord or Empyrial Archangel. I'm not suggesting playing four Survival + four Order + Squee + Anger + Overlord, but it seems to me that the amount of cards that make your other cards good (4) is the weak point of the deck.

[yawg07]

See thats the thing though. To combo off, you don't need to BEGIN the chain with Glimpse.
Example:

It is turn 3, you have no glimpse, but it would be a good time to go off.
Lets say that you have 2 Forest Llanowar and Heritage in play, and your hand is ...

Forest
Nettle Sentinel
Birchlore Rangers
Weird Harvest
Summoners Pact

You do this.
Tap Forest (G)
Play Nettle Sentinel ()
Tap 3 Elves (GGG)
Play Summoner's Pact for Nettle Sentinel, untap NS (GGG)
Play Nettle Sentinel (GG)
Play Birchlore Rangers (G)
Tap 3 Elves and your second Forest (GGGGG)
Play Weird Harvest for Nettle Sentinel + Wirewood Symbiote + Regal Force, untap NS ()
Tap the sentinels (G)
Play Nettle Sentinel, untap NS ()
Tap 3 NS (GGG)
Play Wirewood Symbiote, untap NS (GG)
Tap 3 NS (GGGGG)
Use Wirewood Symbiote to return Birchlore Rangers and untap Llanowar (GGGGG)
Play Rangers, untap NS (GGGG)
Tap 3 NS (GGGGGGG)
Play Regal Force, untap NS ()
Draw 8 cards, you should now win. More than likely you have drawn a Glimpse, if not, no sweat. Play guys and attack next turn.
I hold off on playing the forest because sometimes, the Cradle comes along and you'll need it.

If they counter some of the stuff, oh well. Generally, the decks playing FoW are Thresh builds, at least around here.
If they counter you mid combo on game one, you have an army to blow them out with.

A lone Natural Order or a lone Survival Actually go a long way, but in testing Summoner's pact is better than both.
You could honestly play Recycle, as well. Out of all those cards, Survival is the most versatile, but Natural Order is the most explosive.
2GG and an elf to summon up Regal Force and draw 5-10 cards is pretty good. But it you have 5-10 elves in play, you have the mana to Harvest/Chord/Summoners Pact into him anyway.


The normal goldfish turn for the deck is 3.
It can go turn 2, ESPECIALLY with Cradle, it is also fine to wait it out and pop on turn 4.
The maindeck 3x Viridian Shaman have proven VERY effective against Chalice/3Sphere early.

And yeah, combo is usually ME in our meta, haha.
But even against decks like Dredge, if they don't win by turn 2 (which they frequently do not) you can beat them out.

In our meta we DO have a lot of blue, and a lot of stax as well, recently.
The deck holds its own against stax because usually you've only got an artifact or two to fear.
Blue? This is Legacy, it is usually going to be Thresh. If it is, you'll win because of your SB.
This isn't DEFINITE, because of E.Explosives and Clasm, but that is why you have answers in the board.
Landstill is another animal, and The Rock is pretty damn annoying, no lie.
Those decks and the obscene weakness to Aggro Loam's DevDreams is a problem that we'll have to work out.

[Noman Peopled]

My plan is...oh shit, I don't have one. I guess I could run Orim's Chant instead of Xantid Swarm and use it in response to their draw spell (or in Ad Nauseam's case, the upkeep of the turn after they play AdN)? Thorn is definitely the best option though, save maybe for Brain Freeze on them after they've drawn enough of their deck, but this is unlikely since you'd probably only be running 1 Brain Freeze.

I don't know about other decks, but ANT (and TES too, I suspect) will typically cast AdN during their turn because if they didn't do so last turn it was because they couldn't. Especially with Elves in play, they won't want to give you another attack phase. And they'll probe with Chant/Duress first if possible. Chant can also play Fog vs Elves. If you're casting Chant in response to AdN, you better win next turn :(
I agree that Freeze shouldn't be relied upon against combo in any way, as it means you'd have to keep 1U open even if you draw it. I like Thorn, but both TES and ANT can win t1-t2 (not that they always will) and we don't have 0CC accel. Thorn won't be enough.

@ Cool Things: thx ;)

If they counter some of the stuff, oh well. Generally, the decks playing FoW are Thresh builds, at least around here.
If they counter you mid combo on game one, you have an army to blow them out with.

If they counter something mid-combo, they don't know what they're doing, though (or they're snaring). Under normal circumstances, they should counter Glimpse/Weird Harvest.
Around here, we have quite a few blue decks that aren't Thresh. Weird Painter/Dreadnought/Trinket thingies up to UB with discard.

Landstill is another animal, and The Rock is pretty damn annoying, no lie.
Those decks and the obscene weakness to Aggro Loam's DevDreams is a problem that we'll have to work out.

I may or may not agree on us beating blue aggro-control post-board, but imo the question is if it can win vs. blue aggro-control and the decks you mentioned above. Not that it'll be necessary in every metagame, but said meta is kinda volatile around here. Which happens if you have a bunch of casual players as well as dedicated Legacy players showing up. Stifle, Snare, and Extirpate are big here, as is Teeg (for some reason).


Oh well. I'll see if I can trade for Glimpse/Harvest reasonably on Wednesday.

[georgjorge]

@yawg07: Ah, thanks for the explanation, I didn't think the deck could go off without Glimpse as well. So they would have to counter Harvest as well as Glimpse (or they could even counter the Regal Force)...but

If they counter you mid combo on game one, you have an army to blow them out with.

doesn't look so good, as an army of, say, four 1/1s and three 2/2s can be dealt with by most decks, even Thresh (if they have a Goyf and Goose out, you will get to deal only nine damage and have no creatures left in this example).

[1maarten1]

@yawg07: Ah, thanks for the explanation, I didn't think the deck could go off without Glimpse as well. So they would have to counter Harvest as well as Glimpse (or they could even counter the Regal Force)...but



doesn't look so good, as an army of, say, four 1/1s and three 2/2s can be dealt with by most decks, even Thresh (if they have a Goyf and Goose out, you will get to deal only nine damage and have no creatures left in this example).

Even if they counter harvest it wont be to much of a problem.U will have pact also. In my testing ive almost always found a way to play around counter magic. And about the army thing; i found that even if i fizzled i had way more elves then that ;) and with a champion i would tutor for they really die quick ;).

~Maarten

[Wobbles The Goose]

@yawg07: So they would have to counter Harvest as well as Glimpse (or they could even counter the Regal Force)

In yawg's example hand, you should play it differently if you suspect if they have a force of will. Just bait with a weird harvest that turn, then go for the win next turn with pact next turn. I mean, the deck is as difficult to play correctly as any other combo deck, but the strength comes from being fast, consistent, and resilient to hate.

From my build on the first page:

-1 Llanowar Elves
-1 Weird Harvest
-1 Gaea's Herald
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Thoughtseize
1 Orim's Chant
4 Elves of Deep Shadow


Most of those numbers are subject to tweeking, but I think this shows an interesting direction for the combo to take. I found in testing that I rarely needed to win do to on the board threats the turn I went off. The scary thing was always the possibility that my opponent dropped moat, pyroclasm, devistating dreams, etc. While this build is at least a turn slower, when you go off you wind up drawing your deck, thoughtseizing them multiple times then chanting them during their turn which is just as lethal.

EDIT:

-1 Llanowar for another Chant. It's really good.

[Noman Peopled]

-1 Llanowar Elves
-1 Weird Harvest
-1 Gaea's Herald
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Elvish Spirit Guide
-4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Thoughtseize
1 Orim's Chant
4 Elves of Deep Shadow


Most of those numbers are subject to tweeking, but I think this shows an interesting direction for the combo to take. I found in testing that I rarely needed to win do to on the board threats the turn I went off. The scary thing was always the possibility that my opponent dropped moat, pyroclasm, devistating dreams, etc. While this build is at least a turn slower, when you go off you wind up drawing your deck, thoughtseizing them multiple times then chanting them during their turn which is just as lethal.

That's not a bad idea at all, imho. I wonder if it'd be possible to find another spot for Chant, as it would be essentially the deck's Flame-kin Zealot and is a good piece of disruption on its own. I would still worry about EE and Deed, though; these would have to be gone before the finishing move. Of course, by this point you may have amassed enough cards to go off again next turn. (This is assuming Deed/EE can't be popped to prevent from comboing due to lack of mana, else it wil probably not be in play by the end of the combo anyway.)

Hm.