I've not played magic for a half year and now came back here to read me into the Meta. And this is the best and most innovative deck made on TS in a long time. You should win a CANG contest with it retroactively. The list is so awesome and straight that I cant believe it is posted on TS ;)
Since the list on page 1 is so awesome I really can't contribute anything to the thread. Hymn and Extirpate have already been proven as inferior choices. Any changes that can be made are either in the SB or they are Meta calls. So the only purpose of this post is to congratulate you on this brilliant deck and I am sure to see it in the DTB Forum soon.
Hey all,
Mostly, I merely float around the forums without posting but after playing with TA, I feel as if I have to say something.
This deck is incredible and perhaps one of the most fun decks I have ever played. My favorite archetype is SUI black, alas, they tend to be horrible against combo and the majority of the meta. TA does everything Sui does and more.
My only input after a good amount of testing (though obviously less than Deep6er's and Nitewolf9's) is that I feel that we should play more Bloodstained Mire's and less Flooded Strands. Every game, I want more black mana than blue or green and Strands inability to fetch for a Bayou is detrimental to my game plan. I play the same list as the one in the opening post except:
-2 Flooded Strand
-1 Tropical Island
+3 Bloodstained Mire
Thanks for the deck and let me know if I am terribly wrong or no :)
G59
P.S. Quick stifle question, can I stifle dredge?
This seems reasonable the only problem I see is that you then only have 2 real green sources left in the dec. Has this ever been a problem for you at all? Overall Bayou seems better than Trop but somtimes you need a trop if you have multiple cantrips stifles and a goyf early on.Originally Posted by Guevera59
No, Dredge is a static ability - not a triggered or activated ability.
* 502.47. Dredge
o 502.47a Dredge is a static ability that functions only while the card with dredge is in a player's graveyard. "Dredge N" means "As long as you have at least N cards in your library, if you would draw a card, you may instead put N cards from the top of your library into your graveyard and return this card from your graveyard to your hand."
o 502.47b A player with fewer cards in his or her library than the number required by a dredge ability can't put any of them into his or her graveyard this way.
@Deep6er/Nitewolf9:
Have you got any data from testing against the Loam Mu's ?
And how did u change the Sb for adding Reanimate?
The mainboard is awesome, dont think anything can be changed there.
The board we're trying:
4 tormod's crypt
3 hydroblast/BEB
3 krosan grip
3 diabolic edict
2 reanimate
I don't think we've done much testing against aggro loam, but from playing against it alot with eva green I can make an educated guess as to how the matchup works. Snuff out is amazing, and so is tombstalker. You can easily out tempo them, but that being said they have a lot that is bad for you (chalice is bad, and alot depends on their removal suite). Dreams isn't really too much of an issue for TA, since they'll have to really overcommit to kill anything of yours and if you play smart with your lands it's hard for them to manascrew you. However, if it gets to the point where they are recurring wastelands and you haven't killed them yet then you are in trouble. Crypt is bad for aggro loam, don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise. So is blast and edict. The trouble comes in how you board, because you have a lot that could come in. Killing terravores with stalker + crypt is also kind of amusing.
they haunt minds...
So me and a few friends are working on coming up with a variation of the deck that doesn't deal with the disynergy of Tombstalker + Tarmogoyf (I never really liked that issue, and don't know how often it comes up)... but the version I have come up with so far is as follows:
// Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland
// Creatures
4 Tombstalker
4 Spectral Lynx
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole / Hymn to Tourach
don't really have a working sideboard yet, and not really sure what to put into it. But the deck looks pretty solid, just not sure what the match ups will be as of yet. Also I think the numbers for the mana base are far more solid than the numbers for the mana base in the original deck.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Cool, no testing done but already making (bad) changes. Tombstalker will hardly ever affect Goyf, since, you know, Goyf gets its P/T from BOTH yards. OH! I forgot, you get to pick the cards you want to remove! That still might shave off a little P/T, though :(, so lets change it to a 2/1!
actually, Tombstalker can also remove the entirety of your graveyard... if you wanted it to. And yes, I have actually shaved off like 2 or 3 points with a tombstalker against an opponents goyf by doing this. And simply removing 6 cards, will in fact likely remove at least 1 point from goyf.
Additionally it is a 2/1 with protection from green and regeneration. That means it can block just about anything, even a gigantic goyf... and live to tell about it!!!
Also so far as I know this variation on the deck is simply a hypathetical at the moment. As I have no intention of building it any time soon (not sure about either of my friends). However I wanted to see what others thought about it.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
I don't think we need to even explain why Tarmogoyf > Spectral Lynx in this deck...
This is not even close to what Team America wants to be doing.
Your disruption is geared toward gaining an advantage in the early game, which you use your creatures to capitalize on. As such, they need to be capable of winning the game before your opponent can recover. Spectral Lynx is just a bad stalling tactic.
I do agree, it is a bad stalling tactic. However I do not personally like the issues raised by the relationship between Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker. These two cards in my personal opinion should never be played with each other. For one thing, you have to hold back when you play tombstalker by not removing your entire graveyard, in order to give your tarmogoyf food with which to grow bigger. Meanwhile this same fact allows your opponents tarmogoyfs to grow bigger at the same time. I would much rather be able to simply remove my entire graveyard at a moments notice (unless I had 2 Tombstalkers in hand which is even more disynergetic than a tombstalker & tarmogoyf, and possible when playing 3+ Tombstalkers)... even still, if I had two tombstalkers I would probably still remove my entire graveyard. This is made even more awkward by the inclusion of tormod's crypt in the sideboard. If you play Tormod's Crypt, removing your opponents graveyard, then play a tombstalker removing your graveyard... then try to play a tarmogoyf (or had played one previously) that tarmogoyf is going to be worse than my Lynx....
Simply put Tarmogoyf + this deck simply is not in my opinion the most optimal card choice in existence. In fact I would say the only true reason to run green over white is not Tarmogoyf, but rather Krosan Grip!
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
You'll likely win more games based on Tarmogoyf being broken than you'll lose based on Goyf and Stalker being a bit anti-synergistic.
Phyrexian Negator or Sea Drake are probably your best bets if you really, really don't want to play Goyf.
There is no replacement for Goyf. Negator and Sea Drake are too slow at 3 Mana. Using your Dazes and Wastelands would make it take too long to be played. Spectral Lynx is just bad in this deck. If you hit for only two per turn your opponent will have many turns to recover from your disruption.
There is no Stalker / Goyf problem. There will ~always be a land, a sorcery or instant and something you Thoughtseized/Dazed/Snuffed Out in your opponent's yard. At ~95% Goyf won't be smaller than 3/4 and ~80% it won't be smaller than 4/5.
Cathal, these "issues" you describe between Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf do not exist. You are imagining things. The scenario you describe when you Delve your entire graveyard, then Crypt your opponent's yard just so you can shrink all Tarmogoyfs to 1/2 is awful. I'd rather have a 1/2 Tarmogoyf than Spectral Lynx.
Plus, people still seem to be forgetting the fact that you don't just stop playing spells after tombstalker comes down. Also, spectral lynx, are you serious? I thought this was a joke at first but...man. This guy isn't a threat at all. Actually play the deck a few times and you'll see there is no problem whatsoever with running them both.
they haunt minds...
I like your list, but I don't really like how you always want to keep as much black open as possible to regenerate spectral lynx and the fact that tombstalker costs double black. Here is a list that looks pretty solid to me.
// Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Scrubland
// Creatures
4 Rootwater Thief
4 Spectral Lynx
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole / Hymn to Tourach
.
Last edited by NQN; 11-12-2008 at 10:16 AM.
Quicksilver, please use [irony] tags next time.
FeFe Team: Legacy in the Southern Hemisphere.
Cathal83, it seems like you're adressing a problem that doesn't exists; the creature base in TA is excellent - from testing I don't see one reason that would make me change it. What are you trying to improve by changing the creature base ? (I'm trying hard to keep an open mind here).
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