That list may be unpolished, but it looks interesting. Sort of reminds me of a mono blue landstill deck that I played around with for a bit that I never really did anything with.
I miss the days of running ophidian. Even a finkel would do. With the dominance of goyf decks though, Ophidian creatures seem like they will be a distant memory if not because of goyfs, but all the cheap removal that is being run to prevent them from dominating one side of the table.
Does anyone ever wish they could step into a time machine and go back to a big old school 1.x tourney just so they play their old stasis deck that packed gushes and two morphlings 4tw or forbidian deck with two masticores and a morphling?
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Accelerated blue, TFK MUC whatever you want to call it really needs a thread for itself. Every 5 pages or less someone posts some "ingenious but unpolished" list with tfk and artifacts. Personally they're not my type but i think that if theyre going to be developed they need a thread of their own.
No, the reason is that permanent-based and draw-go manage to share this thread fine and an artifact-based version should be able to as well.
Also, you are exaggerating with the five pages remark.
MUC builds are subject to a unifying theme which is permission, entirely blue(besides artifacts obviously), a few cards that have a mass removal-type effect and a very small number of creatures that end the game in a few turns. In my very small, but frequently voiced opinion: pretty much any deck that matches this criteria fits in this thread.
Largely untested lists being posted is irritating at times, but even I do it from time to time. So, kindly shut up.
@CG if I get a hankerin' to screw around with a blue deck, I'll play around with a variation of the blue w/more artifacts than usual muc deck I have and post thoughts and a list.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
I see some of you are interested in my top 8 performance at the resent source tournament with prison blue.
I play this as a prison/control deck that locks out the opponents attack phase with lock pieces (Shackles, Keg, Propaganda, B2B) protects the lock with control elements and deploys the kill.
Impulse vs. Ancestral Visions: I really wanted to drop a lock piece turn three against a lot of decks, and Impulse really helped me dig for needed answers and stabilize. The deck plays like prison against many of decks, and I just wanted my lock pieces fast, and deploy the kill. Impulse lets you stabilize the early game and finds the win condition late game.
The idea behind the sideboard was that I wanted to have the option of transforming back into a more traditional control build in certain matches. The deck has at least seven dedicated creature control cards main. So against any combo or control decks not relying heavily on creatures to control the game I wanted to transform to a control build. Negate seemed stronger than Mana Leak in that role against combo and control because I was not looking to counter creatures so Negate was a hard counter.
This is the field I played through:
Ichorid
Dreadstill
Eva Green
Affinity
Thresh
Goblins
Landstill
Dreadstill
Well, it is Sunday now in Holland.
10 hours from now, i will be going to Zwolle and participate with the Dutch Nationals.
And this is what i will take with me
23 Island
4 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Back to Basics
2 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Sower of Temptation
3 Kira, Great-Glass Spinner
2 Morphling
Sideboard:
2 Divert
4 Hydroblast
3 Stifle
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chalice of the Void
I just hope i won't face many Chokes ;) . Not sure what to expect in a 100 men tournament. Not sure if Goblins will be heavly present or Affinity. The choice of Hydroblast is risky, because sometimes you just don't face those heavy red decks. But will see.
I personally would take Propagandas instead of Hyrdoblast if you're expecting to see agro.
Team Battletoadz: Fuck the Meta-police?
If it's all in our heads, it's best that we don't loose them.
Last report you said you were going to play 3 Vedalken Shackles, but again you're going to play 2. Why?
Good luck! And I'll see you within two hours ;)
Force Spike! Why?
Why do people insist on playing 4 copies of this crappy card. I mean seriously, Force Spike is less than worthless past turn 3, and the avg game with this deck lasts till turn 13. Half the time that you draw a force spike, it will be completly unplayable.
Why not play some actual card draw instead (Visions). Or more board control ala. Propaganda/Keg/Shackles.
I agree. If one of the main reasons to play it would be to stop something like a Mogg Fanatic or Goblin Lackey might i suggest Piracy Charm? Although it may just be that whatever fills the slot will be a necessary evil that you just have to live with.
@ Captain Hammer
Force Spike has been debated several times in the two MUC threads. If you need to know why, then go read up.Why do people insist on playing 4 copies of this crappy card. I mean seriously, Force Spike is less than worthless past turn 3, and the avg game with this deck lasts till turn 13. Half the time that you draw a force spike, it will be completly unplayable.
Why not play some actual card draw instead (Visions). Or more board control ala. Propaganda/Keg/Shackles.
The card isn't worthless past turn 3, especially not against a number of breathtakingly low land-count tempo decks. To your point, while the average game might last to turn 13, you still have to find a way to get there, and Force Spike is a viable choice for helping you live to see the end game.
You clearly play permanent-MUC, so I doubt you've seen the card operate as effectively as it can in other builds, such as Draw/go. Shuffle up Draw/go, and you'll find the card is actually very good.
peace,
4eak
According to this report, a Fahad MUC aka MUC with Kira/Sower take the 2° place out of 140 people at the Dutch Nationals; i hope that guy is you Soulles...
Now maybe, after the 1° place at Mol out of 58 people, the 5° place at Utrecht out of 31 and this wonderful result of 2/140°, people will stop to play shitty cards like Ancestral Vision, that bring this archetipe to nothing, while Fahad MUC is currently the MUC deck that's performing better.
Kira+Sower seems the future of MUC on Legacy, isn't it?
@samsunait
soulles=fahad
But the player who became 2th wasnt him, his name was Leon. I lost to him in the semi's and i can tell the people here, it is a really strong muc build, especially in a meta like this one(i mean the dutch meta here, lots of 3c aggro-control decks and like).
team HASTE!
Actually Ancestral Visions is a great card. It is like your insurance to not go out-of-gas in the mid-/lategame.
Kira+Sower ist actually crap as Kira itself is not really able to apply pressure by itself and Sower of Temptation needs to be backed up with Kira or counterbackup. Control Magic would actually be the safer way.
I also don't have any clue why there are Force Spikes in the maindeck, that is by far the most terrible card you could play.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
If my testing and experience with the deck was anything but immensely negative I would be more inclined to believe the Kira/Sower build has some potential. Except, there's the slight problem of me being completely unable to make the deck the work. Maybe I'm just unlucky with it or something, but I always seemed to draw Sowers in the wrong the spot, or Kira without Sower, or anything of that sort, over and over again.
Between that and the fact that my metagame is loaded with control, Thresh, and Goblins I really don't find the Kira/Sower build attractive at all.
And, as an aside, the idea that 3 results make Kira/Sower the future of MUC is laughable. Sure it's great that it's been successful, but please don't act like the deck has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that it's the best build of MUC, because I assure you, it hasn't. Every other variant of MUC has had major successes of equal or greater magnitude than the Kira/Sower build, and I'm sure they will continue to do so.
Actually, that muc build has t8'ed almost on every dutch tourney in the past half/full year. I think its really strong, especially in a meta with many aggro-control decks like thresh and that kind of decks.
team HASTE!
I think we should be happy if MUC of any kind shows result on big tournaments like this one.
Atm imho MUC archetipe is split among 3 builds: Permanent MUC (Kadaj), Kira/Sower MUC (Fahad) and the old one (and still my personal favorite) Stack MUC.
It's always the MUC we love on all 3 builds; the important fact is that MUC is strong in Legacy right now, whatever version you can play; as a long MonoBlue player back from when i started with Magic on '99 i'm very happy to see where this archetipe is right now.
Maybe it deserves DTW (or ATW) status?
I'm quite prepared to believe that Sower of Temptation is a good card. Sure, they can remove it, but they basically have to remove it (sort of like Dreadnought). And it might even be easier to protect against Swords to Plowshares than Krosan Grip. Again, not saying it is good -- I haven't tested it -- but I can see the logic.
Kira, though. I can't. As far as I can tell, the card does two things: swings for two, and protects Sower. Wouldn't you be much better off running either more ways to steal things (Shackles, Threads, Control Magic, Dominate, whatever), or ways to protect Sower which suck considerably less?
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I'm still confused when people claim they are running stack-based mono-blue. What does that mean? Are you not running Back to Basics, Vedalken Shackles, and other permanents? Do you honestly have enough firepower to counter everything if you aren't running these cards?
I run B2B, Shackles and Powder Keg as my permanents. Propaganda is in the sideboard only. I run permanent-based mono-blue because I am winning with my permanents - B2B and Shackles especially. Yes I counter scary cards like Humility and I will Force of Will a Lackey or even sometimes a Dark Ritual, but I don't counter everything my opponent plays. I'm under the impression if you run B2B and Shackles and (you know...) permanents (I've seen some with Disk which is also a permanent for those who may be confused), then you are running permanent-based mono-blue, not stack-based / draw-go.
Do you have a decklist of a stack-based or draw-go style deck that is viable without permanents like Shackles, Back to Basics and some sort of board sweeper? How do you win if they do hit a creature and just keep poking you with it? Do you Disk for one creature?
End of turn...Morphling
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE
@ Jason
The opening post talks a bit about this distinction, but I'll elaborate.I'm still confused when people claim they are running stack-based mono-blue. What does that mean?
All versions of MUC have to run some permanents. Land, Shackles, Artifact Board clearing, and at least 1 (if not 2 or 3) creatures are guaranteed to be found in pretty much any variation. Running these cards doesn't dictate much of anything really.
We all expect to see at least:
+23x Land
+2x Shackles
+2x Artifact Board Clearing
+1x Creatures
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
4x Fact or Fiction
+4x Draw/Cantrip/CA/CQ
That is the basic shell of Legacy MUC. Some may wish to add or subtract to that list, but I'd argue that this the the bare minimum I expect of any MUC deck.
How you fill out that shell and the remaining 16 free slots is what defines your MUC deck. Everybody is going to win the game with a creature (a permanent) and everyone will use at least some permanent to help control the board. The question of what is the difference between permanent-MUC and stack-MUC is answered by the strategy and proportion of spells used. Permanent-MUC lists will exercise control more through the use of permanents than by controlling the stack, and the opposite is true for draw/go. Both variants will use both instants and permanents to control the game, but each variant will emphasize one over the other.
Characteristics of Permanent-MUC:
Preference for zero splash, lower quantity of permission spells, card quantity spells over card quality, and maximal redundancy to spend less mana filtering. I expect to see these card used in addition to the above shell:
4x Ancestral Vision (in the CQ/CA slot)
+4x Powder Keg
+4x Propaganda
+4x Back to Basics
It has a permanent-based mana-denial theme, and taps out in the main phase a great deal. Permanent-MUC is well-tuned against the DtB forum.
Characteristics of Kira/Sower MUC
Creature-based card advantage engines, higher permission count than most permanent-MUC builds, tempo-oriented, and wins games earlier than other variants. Cards in question:
+4x Sower of Temptation
+2x Kira, Great-Glass Spinner
It is uncommonly played, but it has some results. It is closer in strategy to permanent-MUC lists than the draw/go strategy of stack-MUC.
Characteristics of Stack-MUC:
High quantity of permission spells, plays mostly instants, requires the least amount of redundancy. Cards in question:
+6-8x Permission spells (in addition to the shell)
4-6x instant cantrips, usually Brainstorm and Impulse (including the 4x in shell)
3-4x Artifact Board Sweepers, able to use EE and Disk where others variations are less able
It is uncommonly played, and few here would advocate it (although I do). This is probably the oldest version of the deck, which we call: Draw/go. It draws a land, plays it, and it passes the turn. Most spells are played during your opponent's turn, often on the end step. Stack-MUC is less committed to any particular card because it plays most of its spell as a direct response to the opponent.
It 1 for 1's relevant spells, but not all of them (because not all spells are relevant), and generates CA through artifact board spells (shackles+disk) and FoF more effectively because of its cantrip and permission base. It is also most likely to play bounce and man-lands to improve tempo.
peace,
4eak
Looking at this description, wouldn't Ophidian fit into this particular MUC build? He doesn't perform very well as beater, nor does he have evasion, but he is a very powerful (creature-based) card advantage engine.
On another note, I used to play a stack-based MUC for several years, I'm not 100% sure on the decklist, but I think the list was something along the lines of;
24x Island
4x Force of Will
4x Counterspell
4x Mana Leak
4x Memory Lapse
4x Dissipate
4x Fact or Fiction
4x Impulse
2x Morphling
2x Shackles
2x Powder Keg
2x Nevinyrral's Disk
I know there's some awkward card choices in there. The lack of early-game control killed me every now and then (a resolved Lackey was often GG), but people in my area mostly played Landstill and Thresh so that didn't matter that much. I'm not sure a similar list is viable at this point though.
Eventually I swapped some Memory Lapses for B2B, and by now my MUC list has evolved into one very similar to Kadaj's.
Sae~
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