Sower isn't that bad. It's just not the best choice. It's neat for stealing creatures that Shackles can't do on turn 4 (Akroma, fatass Countryside Crusher, Goyf on occasion, etc). I just wouldn't know how to fit it in.
@ aTn - Good job on your finish. A very interesting and different build, I might add. How did TS work out for you? Were you able to get BB and enough yard junk to fuel him fast? Or was he more like a late game finisher? If he was a late game fatty, would it maybe be a good idea to run like 1-2 and Intuition for TS, Stronghold, Loam or TS, TS, Stronghold? It frees up space for other stuff like Intuition #4 and a maindecked Oracle. Just a suggestion :)
A good lesson to learn indeed. It will only tempt you to do stupid things.Originally Posted by chokin
@ aTn: I nearlly fell in love with your list. Only problem I see is the amount of blue cards you're running. I'd like to see at least 18 or even 19 blue cards to better support Force of Will.
I wasn't afraid of the combo matchup until today, but when I saw a friend going of through Counterbalance AND Force. Do you feel comfortable in this MU without further addressing it by the sideboard?
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll try to answer some of your questions-concerns.
Until now, Tombstalker has been amazing. I have finished games with either 1 or occasionnaly 2 on the board. In my mind he's more like a mid-late game finisher against aggro-control and control. If in a rush, you can actually cast one relatively early on (sometimes with the help of Intuition for either 3 TS or LftL + 2 extra cards).How did TS work out for you? Were you able to get BB and enough yard junk to fuel him fast?
I agree. The idea I had in putting 3 was to be able to get one in my hand either by drawing him or via Intuition to put pressure early on. That being said, I think going -1 TS, +1 Intuition is a good idea. The only thing I have against it is it lowers the threat count... but then again, if you view Intuition as an enabler, then it might be right.Or was he more like a late game finisher? If he was a late game fatty, would it maybe be a good idea to run like 1-2 and Intuition for TS, Stronghold, Loam or TS, TS, Stronghold? It frees up space for other stuff like Intuition #4 and a maindecked Oracle. Just a suggestion :)
Oracle for me has been too damn slow to set up, but that's just my experience.
I totally agree. Right now I'll test -1 TS, +1 Intuition, so the blue count should be 18 if I'm not mistaken. I agree it's still a bit low... If you have a suggestion, go ahead :)I nearlly fell in love with your list. Only problem I see is the amount of blue cards you're running.
I think the E. Plague and Oracle slots in the SB could be adapted to combo. 4 StoP + 4 BeB post-board against Goblins seems fair enough (and playing Goyf helps) - I went overkill with the E. Plagues I think.I wasn't afraid of the combo matchup until today, but when I saw a friend going of through Counterbalance AND Force. Do you feel comfortable in this MU without further addressing it by the sideboard?
Just for the record, 4 StP and 4 BeB is far from enough for goblins against competent players. You basically lose game 1 about 100% times, and winning the remaining two is far from certain.
Maybe (that's why I originally played 3 E. Plague in the SB). I was simply making an hypothesis mainly based on my UGW-Threshold days where - in my experience - 4 Goyf, 4 Goose, 4 Stop and 4 BEB were enough most of the time.Just for the record, 4 StP and 4 BeB is far from enough for goblins against competent players. You basically lose game 1 about 100% times, and winning the remaining two is far from certain.
Has anyone thought seriously about Enlightened Tutor? I searched for it and found it in the thread only as a reason to run Standstill over Intuition, which is clearly terrible.
I'm thinking about running them over Nevinyrral's Disk in the sideboard (really the only slots that I feel aren't set in stone at this point--I'm running 4 Blue Elemental Blasts, 4 Tormod's Crypts, 4 Krosan Grips, and 3 Nevinyrral's Disks right now).
Reasons to run Enlightened Tutor, as far as I'm concerned:
- Gets Counterbalance or Sensei's Divining Top when you need it early
- Gets Deed when you need it early
- Counters anything with CMC 1-4 with Counterbalance on the table
- Gets Tormod's Crypt early against Ichorid
I've liked Enlightened Tutor in Landstill (usually getting Humility [especially in response to Cabal Therapy]) and in UGw Threshold, getting CounterTop active, countering spells with Counterbalance, and getting Back To Basics when it wins the game. I'm not suggesting it maindeck, because it isn't always necessary and it is unequivocally card disadvantage, but I think it wouldn't be hard to find matchups where you'd want it.
If the sideboard is more flexible than I think it is, you could also get a Runed Halo against combo or an Engineered Plague against Goblins, or maybe even a Disk against Dragon Stompy. We are running a basic Plains, after all.
What do you guys think?
so what bullets would you put in your SB? A SB that lacks space anyways.
And more important.. What do you board out? What matchup do you think it is needed?
I just started thinking about it last night, and haven't played many games since then, so I'm not entirely sure.
I probably wouldn't run any bullets sideboard, I was just mentioning it as a possibility. If you were forcing me to run a bullet SB, my first inclination would be to run 1 Engineered Plague over 1 Krosan Grip, but Krosan Grip is probably better.
I think I'd probably want to board in Enlightened Tutor against Goblins in order to get Deed, against combo (and possibly Landstill) to get Counterbalance or Sensei's Divining Top, and against Ichorid to get Tormod's Crypt.
I never know exactly what to take out when sideboarding. How do you sideboard against Goblins, Combo, Landstill, and Ichorid with regular ITF builds?
My loose idea is take out 2 Counterspell, 4 Intuition, and 1 Engineered Explosives for 4 Blue Elemental Blast and 3 Enlightened Tutor against Goblins, take out 3 Pernicious Deeds for 3 Enlightened Tutor against Combo, take out 2 Engineered Explosives and a Pernicious Deed for 3 Enlightened Tutor against Landstill, and take out 4 Counterbalance and 3 Intuition for 4 Tormod's Crypt and 3 Enlightened Tutor against Ichorid. Again, that's completely untested and off-the-cuff. Don't shoot me down for my sideboarding strategy--shoot me down if you think Enlightened Tutor is a bad idea.
On the other hand, sideboarding advice for these matchups would be helpful.
You probably want access to a Deed against combo, particularly if you have Tutor, because it can hit their mana.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Good call. I've never actually played against combo. I was figuring Counterbalance and Top were of critical importance, and that by the time they were playing Lion's Eye Diamond and Chrome Mox and so forth they'd probably be trying to go off and so destroying them wouldn't matter much. Guess I'm wrong.
Swords to Plowshares is pretty useless against combo, right? Maybe I'd take them out.
As does EE for cheaper. 3 mana vs 2 mana. Comes back through Ruins. But it truly depends on what combo deck you are playing against. Assembling CB Top will help if you can get it fast enough.
A detail: In my experience, Deed is not very good against Goblins (i.e. too slow... you need to activate Deed @ 3 or sometimes 4 or 5 to whipe the board).
I think E.Tutor is a good idea. I'll test it to see if it works.
actually deed is great for goblins,specially with swords and goyf, you just selectivly keep off the big shit like piledrivers and lackeys to slow him down and drop the deed to wipe the board, Deed is one of the main reasons landstill can actually beat goblins.
To the man that says we lose 100% of the time to goblins, you need to reconsider this, I've played against very good goblins pilots(many of them are top 25 in ohio for legacy) and have won 2-0 no problem, you just need to be selective with your swords and blow board with deed, also shackles is amazing in this matchup, plus if your on the go, dropping an explosives for 1 is a huge shocker for your opponent. This matchup really comes down to what things you kill, because if you go crazy and hit everyone as quickly as possible, you leave the able to come back with ringleader, but if you are selective, just enough to keep them from overruning, you can drop the deed turn 3 or 4 and be able to blow the board safely and then drop a goyf for chucks and giggles
I've been sucessful against Goblins in the past (when I played Landstill), but I didn't really use Deed that much to win. EE on the other hand was great getting rid of Vials, etc.actually deed is great for goblins,specially with swords and goyf, you just selectivly keep off the big shit like piledrivers and lackeys to slow him down and drop the deed to wipe the board, Deed is one of the main reasons landstill can actually beat goblins.
Hope you're not referring to me, because I disagree with that statement 100% :)To the man that says we lose 100% of the time to goblins, you need to reconsider this,
I've also played against very good Goblin players and I'd say the match-up is not that hard, but not an auto-win.
I agree Shackles kicks arse in that match-up. In testing, the ITF build I proposed has put up some good results against Goblins. Tombstalkers help a lot...
I have also found EE to be very helpful, as mentioned its a huge shock on the face of a goblin player to see you drop an ee first turn for 1.
nope, I was referring to esmandil who in his post right before your said it is a 100% autoloss first game
I completely agree
can anyone tell me how to side excatly vs landstill?
Depends on the build I think. Personally, I board to stop Wastelock. I put Krosan Grip in against most builds in case they resolve a Crucible or can drop a Deed when you have a nice board advantage. Extirpate (run in some builds which I'm still mixed on) can rip away whatever you feel is threatening.
You can take out StP if they don't have Goyf since there's a lack of targets. Same with Shackles. That should give you plenty of slots.
I finished second in my country's unofficial Legacy Championships (49 players) with this deck. I played:
1. Ub Stiflenought 1-0-1
2. Ad Nauseam combo 1-2
3. MonoU Stiflenought 2-0
4. Rgb Aggro 2-0
5. Bug Aggro control 2-1
6. Rb Goblins ID
T8 Ugb Threshold 2-1
T4 Ugr Stiflenought 2-1
Finals MonoB Aggro 0-2 (1st game GL for drawing an extra card when in complete control, 2nd wrong mulligan decision + really tough luck. 10 hours of playing Magic takes its prize).
I played Deep6er's MD and SB with 'seizes instead of Spell Snares. Grips and Blasts were golden, Crypts were not needed, but might have been. Thoughtseizes came in there and then, but were not really needed outside combo MU. Might try Chants instead. I'd side those Snares against Tarmogoyf decks, if they did a little more against combo. Their general usefulness might still win in the long run.
Witness and Shackles were not needed in the tournament. Consider dropping them for a fetch and maybe a Counterspell.
Can you plz post the list again?
And without Witness or Shackles, how does you intuition piles look like?
thx
Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same ten decks.
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