[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

[emidln]

If the other deck played only 1 copy like it should, the fact that Tendrils was even in his hand for you to Duress away is extremely lucky. Yes, Extirpating Tendrils is strong, but its probably not making it into his hand for you to Duress away very often, making it an improbable strategy at best. Boarding in Extirpate to take their win condition seems like a bad idea, especially because Extirpate is a bad card.

Extirpate is an amazing card for storm combo. See my arguments in the Extirpate thread, which I'll note that nobody refuted. It's not boarded in to take Extirpate. That's an opportunistic use that theoretically could happen, but not the primary purpose. The goal is Extirpate is to win the Orim's Chant war of attrition.

[troopatroop]

Extirpate is an amazing card for storm combo. See my arguments in the Extirpate thread, which I'll note that nobody refuted. It's not boarded in to take Extirpate. That's an opportunistic use that theoretically could happen, but not the primary purpose. The goal is Extirpate is to win the Orim's Chant war of attrition.

Fair enough. I just wanted to point out the unlikelihood, and how that shouldn't be the main thought behind it's inclusion.

[Maveric78f]

And to mess up the mystical.

[emidln]

Fair enough. I just wanted to point out the unlikelihood, and how that shouldn't be the main thought behind it's inclusion.

I totally agree. One of the things I noticed playing early version of Fetchland Tendrils and more recent builds with 4x Doomsday is that many times an opponent could completely wreck me with Duress + Tormod's Crypt/Extirpate/Leyline if they realized that I only played one win condition. This doesn't register to most opponents and they will likely take a far more threatening card like Doomsday, Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Brainstorm. In any event, it's a pretty big gamble because all of my storm combo decks, from the original builds of FT to more modern DDFT to the hybrid DD/AdN deck that I've been testing have multiple win conditions available postboard. Ad Nauseam and Doomsday both open up alternate paths to victory like Brain Freeze/Grapeshot to go with the always possible Empty the Warrens. In this way, it's really a risk to choose a win condition with Duress over protection, acceleration, or a tutor/bomb.

[badjuju]

If the other deck played only 1 copy like it should, the fact that Tendrils was even in his hand for you to Duress away is extremely lucky. Yes, Extirpating Tendrils is strong, but its probably not making it into his hand for you to Duress away very often, making it an improbable strategy at best. Boarding in Extirpate to take their win condition seems like a bad idea, especially because Extirpate is a bad card.

Agreed about the idea that Extirpate on Tendrils is not so probable in the mirror. I won't say anything about how good Extirpate itself is though (that's dangerous waters around here lol).

If you want to remove their Tendrils in the mirror, maveric, try using Extract instead. Most ANT decklists only run 1 Tendrils anyway.

[Twoshirty]

You know Earlier in this thread i mentioned extract, and isnt it kinda fail. Like your backwards language that decks just have to start sbing that shiz to get us.... man i hate that card. If people dont see how good it is against us then ... and it would also be a decent card in the mirror

[Maveric78f]

You are right about extract. However, it's not tutorable in most decks. And it's too narrow to be played in more than 1 in SB. Even in ANT SB, I think that mirrors are too rare to play it as a tutorable *1.

Extirpate is far less narrow. It's very strong against big disruption decks like MUC or standstill. It's strong against ichorid. And you may probably like it in other MUs, where chants are bad (aggro loam for instance).

[Dark_Cynic87]

On the extract topic or even just not finding an answer in general, I like Burning Wish. A singleton in here would be fine, especially with 4x Petals. You wouldn't even *need* to change the manabase, although if you were uncomfortable with not, then you could toss in a Volcanic somewhere.

Pce,

--DC

[Kuma]

I've been thinking about the sideboard from Hanni's current list, and I think it can be much improved. The Slaughter Pact, StP, and Crypts aren't very useful, since we can just bounce Meddling Mage and Gaddock Teeg and race Dredge.

Right now, my metagame is mostly Stax/Chalice Aggro, Aggro Loam, Storm Combo, random aggro (many with Wasteland), and a few Thresholds.

Currently, my sideboard is:

1x Plains (Wasteland decks and Dragon Stompy)
4x Serenity (Stax/Chalice Aggro)
3x Repeal (Counterbalance, occasionally aggro)
1x Wipe Away (Counterbalance)
3x Hydroblast (Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, Swan Thresh)
3x Echoing Truth (Stax/Chalice Aggro, Storm)

Repeal is a limited card, in that it's pretty much only useful for bouncing Chalice at zero and Counterbalance. It can generate storm by bouncing an LED or petal, but it's inefficient for dealing with creatures and prison pieces. Chalice for one is usually the stronger play against ANT, and Echoing Truth is better equipped to deal with it.

Since the DtB forum is mostly Landstill, Thresh, and Storm, and decks we annihilate, maybe some number of Abeyance would be a good sideboard choice. Added counterspell protection can't hurt, plus they're almost as good as chants versus Storm.

[jegger]

Third place yesterday at 80+ people tournament.
Same list like last one top8. Only SB change with the introduction of red splash against Counterbalance decks.

@Kuma: why do you play 3x Repeal? We discussed it time ago and it's horrible.
It doesn't bounce Teeg and Chalice at 1 and it hasn't split second like Wipe Away against CB.

[Kuma]

Well, what should I run over it? More Wipe Away? I can't imagine myself needing it in multiples, and it's not an easy card for us to cast. The main reason I run it is because it replaces itself and doesn't muck up your hand while comboing.

The only major deck that runs Teeg is Survival, and we've already got a great matchup there. Besides, I've got Rushing River, Echoing Truth, and Wipe Away to bounce Teeg if I really have to.

I mostly use Repeal to bounce Counterbalance, Dreadnought, and Meddling Mage. It's a solid card against Thresh and Dreadstill, but I agree it's probably the weakest card in the sideboard. Repeal deals you less damage from Ad Nauseum than your other bounce and is great with Mystical Tutor post Nauseum.

I guess if Repeal is so bad, what's a better card to replace it?

[socialite]

Well, what should I run over it? More Wipe Away? I can't imagine myself needing it in multiples, and it's not an easy card for us to cast. The main reason I run it is because it replaces itself and doesn't muck up your hand while comboing.

The only major deck that runs Teeg is Survival, and we've already got a great matchup there. Besides, I've got Rushing River, Echoing Truth, and Wipe Away to bounce Teeg if I really have to.

I mostly use Repeal to bounce Counterbalance, Dreadnought, and Meddling Mage. It's a solid card against Thresh and Dreadstill, but I agree it's probably the weakest card in the sideboard. Repeal deals you less damage from Ad Nauseum than your other bounce and is great with Mystical Tutor post Nauseum.

I guess if Repeal is so bad, what's a better card to replace it?

Chain of Vapor, which you can also use to build Storm count.

Edit: Also why do you need that much bounce? It seems like total overkill.

[blarknob]

repeal actually seems really good. It dodges thresholds curve with a CMC of 3 when bouncing counterbalance while also keeping the CMC of the deck lower so it doesn't bolt you like rushing river or wipe away when resolving AN.

It is really good on chalice at zero and the card draw keeps your hand at a healthy size.

It is more narrow than the other bounce but i still think it has a solid role in the sideboard.

[Maveric78f]

It finally got there, now that it's there! Cheers. (and painter went away, mouahaha)

[Kuma]

Chain of Vapor, which you can also use to build Storm count.

Edit: Also why do you need that much bounce? It seems like total overkill.

Chain of Vapor doesn't bounce Counterbalance (easily), but can bounce Gaddock Teeg and can bounce MM for two mana less. One of these cards shows up in numerous DtB, the others do not. Repeal replaces itself and works great with Mystical Tutor. Neither Repeal or Chain bounce Chalice at one, but both bounce Chalice at any other number for one blue mana. Repeal draws you a card in the process, Chain doesn't.

The only real advantage Chain of Vapor has is that it can generate more storm than Repeal. But that's not why we run bounce, and it's not like the deck has problems generating storm, especially after an Ad Nauseum.

I don't see the arguement for Chain of Vapor unless your meta has Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage, but no Counterbalance.

I almost never side in more than four bounce spells. I have eight, because I like to tailor the bounce to the matchup.

I'd like to run something else over bounce, but all I can come up with is Abeyance, and I'm not thrilled with it. I'd love to hear suggestions about what to run over some of the bounce, but it seems like most people are as puzzled as I am.

[rsaunder]

Alright, so now that AdN Tendrils is a DTW, do we have a basic list to go off of and serve as somewhat of ground zero?

Also, should all discussion revolving as AdN as an enabler in threads like some of the FT thread be moved here?

[Maveric78f]

Instead of tailor bounce spells why not tailor removal spells (Slaughter pact for creatures and serenity for other permanents). Then you can use the remaining slots to ensure the win against aggro (angel's grace or additionnal copies of IGG if you prefer this route), to ensure the win against control and random graveyard based decks (extirpate), and if you meet a lot of comboes in your meta, you can even include 1*extract.
(in addition to MD 1*wipe away, 4*duress, 4*orim's chant)
4*Serenity
4*Slaughter's Pact
3*Angel's Grace
3*Extirpate
1*Extract

Then, the difficulty is when you play against CB, MM and FoW. But I think it's difficult for all ANT versions...

[Kuma]

Alright, so now that AdN Tendrils is a DTW, do we have a basic list to go off of and serve as somewhat of ground zero?

Hanni's B/u/w list on page one is the basic list.

Instead of tailor bounce spells why not tailor removal spells (Slaughter pact for creatures and serenity for other permanents). Then you can use the remaining slots to ensure the win against aggro (angel's grace or additionnal copies of IGG if you prefer this route), to ensure the win against control and random graveyard based decks (extirpate), and if you meet a lot of comboes in your meta, you can even include 1*extract.
(in addition to MD 1*wipe away, 4*duress, 4*orim's chant)
4*Serenity
4*Slaughter's Pact
3*Angel's Grace
3*Extirpate
1*Extract

Then, the difficulty is when you play against CB, MM and FoW. But I think it's difficult for all ANT versions...

Four Slaughter Pact is overkill. The only creatures we'd ever need to Slaughter Pact are Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and Ethersworn Cannonist. All three are already answered by bounce, and Slaughter Pact's upkeep cost makes it ineffective at buying time vs. aggro. I don't know about you guys, but I'm not seeing those creatures in great numbers and we already have ways to deal with them.

I could understand running Extract and Extirpate if you expect the mirror match, but, in general, both are subpar cards.

Angel's Grace seems like danger of cute things. Yes, it lets you draw your whole deck if need be, provided you cast it before Ad Nauseum, and can give you an extra turn to IGG vs. aggro, but I haven't had problems drawing enough cards off Ad Nauseum, or beating aggro. Angel's Grace just seems extremely narrow.

After some thought, I think our sideboard looks something like:

4x Serenity
1x Plains
4-6 Bounce
0-1 Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild
0-2 Abeyance
0-4 Hydroblast
0-1 Slaughter Pact
0-4 Pact of Negation

Right now, there aren't enough cards that scream "Yeah, play me!" for me to be happy with any sideboard.

[4eak]

@ rsaunder

do we have a basic list to go off of and serve as somewhat of ground zero

Ground zero means what cards, at the bare minimum, do I expect to see in any ANT deck, right? This archetype is still fairly new, and isn't completely established (even though it deserves DTW status), so we have to be careful when we isolate what exact cards we expect to see in any deck we call ANT.

The basic shell of ANT:

Lands: 9
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp

Mana Acceleration: 17
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

Card Quality: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor

Engine/WinCons: 5
3 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains (Although a few may disagree, I'm going to argue this is a shell-staple)

These 43 cards belong in every variant of ANT. You can splash for red and/or white, or whatever, but you still have to run these 43. Obviously, decks will be running more land, usually some sort of protection and bounce, and often higher quantities of cards like CRit, CMox, or AdN. Those additions aren't exactly set in stone though, so I can't point them out as being part of the shell.

The above shell defines ANT. The other 17 cards define the variant you play.


@ Kuma

Hanni's B/u/w list on page one is the basic list.

While B/U/w ANT is probably the most popular among us, I'm still going to call it a variant and not necessarily the standard ground zero. The dust is still settling, and while B/U/w ANT may become the standard list for most metagames (and it probably will), it is evident that other variants are still finding success (even if we believe it is despite their card choices and not in virtue of them).

What makes a deck an ANT deck is running the above. Further evolution or multiple variants are still likely.



peace,
4eak

[Maveric78f]

A lot of people (including me) play only 4 AN. And I don't see a lot of people playing less than 13 lands, even if I admit that not everybody splashes white. I also think that everybody agrees in playing 4*duress. On the opposite, not everybody plays the 4*LED+4*IT mechanics.

Kuma you're 100% wrong. Extirpate is the SB card I SB in the more often. It wins mirror and control. AG has already been discussed a lot. I understand that you might prefer another out to aggro, but you absolutely need one. And Slaughter Pact, what's the problem with that card? Why would you prefer bounce to removal? Will you enter more than 4 bounces in a single MU? You already said that no. So why would you play 4/6 bounces in SB instead of play 8 dedicated and highly efficient removals? Sorry but I don't get.