[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Shriekmaw]

i would simply run a 1/1 split between Wipe Away and Rushing River. You simply cannot predict if one card is better than the other in certain matchups. It always depends on the situation.
I ran them in the list I played in Iserlohn but they weren't needed but once (and it wasn't even that necessary).

I like the 1/1 spilt a lot in Canadian Threshold that I run. I can see the argurment of running 2 rushing rivers, but wipe away does win you games from time to time with the spilt second mechanic. I really think the bounce is very important to have main deck no matter if your playing Canadian Threshold or Swan Thresh.

The other point I would like to address is what is the best tempo deck in the format. I think its clearly Canadian Threshold b/c of all the ways you have to stop your opponent from doing anything. It starts with mana denial and continues with the counterspells that you play. Usually an early threat with backup is enough to take the game.

Team America has a cute name, but thats about it.

[Damnosus]

The other point I would like to address is what is the best tempo deck in the format. I think its clearly Canadian Threshold b/c of all the ways you have to stop your opponent from doing anything. It starts with mana denial and continues with the counterspells that you play. Usually an early threat with backup is enough to take the game.

Team America has a cute name, but thats about it.

How is this different to Team America? They appear to have the same amount of mana denial (both have wastelands, stifles, and whereas one has fire//ice, the other has sinkhole-while one is more versitile, the other doesn't just last for a turn). Additionally, they both have counterspells. The difference lies in the rest of the cards.

I feel that TA is better able to capitalize on its tempo due to it having larger creatures, as well as creatures that easily get around CounterTop, and creatures that have evasion (tombstalker). Additionally, TA has hand disruption which allows for an even bigger disruption package. Canadian Thresh has burn, which is fantastic, but isn't super great at getting rid of opposing goyfs/bigger things, and can get hit pretty hard by CounterTop. TA has better tempo creature kill in the form of snuff out.

So when it comes to tempo thresh, I would probably go with TA.

[Mental]

How is this different to Team America? They appear to have the same amount of mana denial (both have wastelands, stifles, and whereas one has fire//ice, the other has sinkhole-while one is more versitile, the other doesn't just last for a turn). Additionally, they both have counterspells. The difference lies in the rest of the cards.

I feel that TA is better able to capitalize on its tempo due to it having larger creatures, as well as creatures that easily get around CounterTop, and creatures that have evasion (tombstalker). Additionally, TA has hand disruption which allows for an even bigger disruption package. Canadian Thresh has burn, which is fantastic, but isn't super great at getting rid of opposing goyfs/bigger things, and can get hit pretty hard by CounterTop. TA has better tempo creature kill in the form of snuff out.

So when it comes to tempo thresh, I would probably go with TA.

Personally I think that TA lacks the burn to finish what it starts often -- when it runs out of steam it does not have the reach to still win. In addition, Thrash plays Nimble Mongoose, which is really, IMO, better than Tombstalker in this format. It's cheaper, easier to cast, and you don't have to waste counters to protect it. Thrash does get hit pretty hard by CBTop, but your thresh MU is still decent, I'm going to say no worse than TA's, because Stifle wrecks thresh as does wasteland. But it's probably a meta choice.

[Shugyosha]

Trygon Predator is something else I had fiddled with, and provides most of what you're looking for - 3cc, proactive, handles annoying stuff (except Humility), even pitches to FoW.

Yeah I played it a while ago and I think its awful. I mean its really good in other Threshold builds but in Swanthresh I don't want another clunky creature that is bad on the defense. It will also die to a copied Chain of Plasma which is a minor point but still a reason not to run it.

Another thing I can't quite figure out is: What do I need in the board against Landstill. I tried Blood Moon and Price of Progress but wasn't satisfied. To much set-up for (often) minor impact or simply too narrow. Currently I'm testing Needles (in addition to Pyroblast and Grip). Are there any other good hate cards I forgot? Winter Orb hurts the own game plan and B2B demands to take the whole combo out which is rather bad for its impact.

[Mordel]

Shugyosha: Winter Orb shouldn't hurt too much unless you are really focusing on the combo kill.


So, I actually googled this and I couldn't find any answers really and I also did a quick search on forums too:

The difference between Canadian Thresh and normal, more "historical" builds is a focus on tempo by stifle, wasteland, md spellsnares and fire/ice as opposed to bunches of cantrips? That is at least what I got out of comparing lists. Sorry for the threshnewb question, it has just been bugging me and this is probably the best place to ask.

Also, there may be an answer contained in the seventy-nine pages of this thread, but I would rather not read all of them, though I did read through the first twenty or so.

Anyway, sorry again for the scrubby question.

[kabal]

S
So, I actually googled this and I couldn't find any answers really and I also did a quick search on forums too:

The difference between Canadian Thresh and normal, more "historical" builds is a focus on tempo by stifle, wasteland, md spellsnares and fire/ice as opposed to bunches of cantrips?

Summer 2007 list
===========
Brainstorm
Counterspell
Daze
Fledgling Dragon
Flooded Strand
Force of Will
Forest
Island
Lightning Bolt
Nimble Mongoose
Pithing Needle
Polluted Delta
Portent
Predict
Sensei's Divining Top
Serum Visions
Tarmogoyf
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Wooded Foothills

Summer 2008 list (Tempo Thrash)
============
Brainstorm
Daze
Fire / Ice
Flooded Strand
Force of Will
Lightning Bolt
Nimble Mongoose
Polluted Delta
Ponder
Rushing River
Spell Snare
Stifle
Tarmogoyf
Tropical Island
Volcanic Island
Wasteland

Diff =>
-Counterspell
-Fledgling Dragon
+Fire / Ice
-Forest
-Island
-Pithing Needle
-Portent
-Predict
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Serum Visions
+Ponder
+Rushing River
+Spell Snare
+Stifle
-Wooded Foothills
+Wasteland

[Mordel]

So minus the exact cards that were replaced, I'll assume what I stated concerning tempo is the difference between the two? Gotcha.

[Shugyosha]

Shugyosha: Winter Orb shouldn't hurt too much unless you are really focusing on the combo kill.

The combo kill is more or less dead then so I would board it out anyways when Orb comes in. Balance Top has to stay in though and Orb hurts your Top considerably.

[Damnosus]

So yea, I have been playing a pretty standard Swan Thresh list lately, and I gotta say I have been getting pretty discouraged. Outside of tournaments (which I have not been able to take the deck to yet), I tend to play with my friends who don't really have legacy decks (it's pretty casual). Considering that this is one of the top tier decks in the legacy format, I kinda figured that I would have a good matchup against most things. The first one I played against was a mono-black reanimator deck which I won against only once in 4-5 games. Then later I played against a slightly upgraded fires of yavimaya deck which also beat me 3 games to 1. Mind you, I tend to not mulligan as much when playing casually, and I don't use my sideboard in such games (which may be the sole reason that I had such a hard time against said decks).

So my conclusions on this are thus: either I don't fully understand how to play this deck yet (which is understandable considering I have only recently picked it up), or this is one of those decks that only does well in an advanced metagame. I mean how does this deck do against random jank? I am wondering this because I most often play in local tournaments where there isn't an advanced metagame, and I really don't want to lose to jank with such an expensive deck.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Are my worries warranted? I can give more information if necessary.

[klaus]

So yea, I have been playing a pretty standard Swan Thresh list lately, and I gotta say I have been getting pretty discouraged. Outside of tournaments (which I have not been able to take the deck to yet), I tend to play with my friends who don't really have legacy decks (it's pretty casual). Considering that this is one of the top tier decks in the legacy format, I kinda figured that I would have a good matchup against most things. The first one I played against was a mono-black reanimator deck which I won against only once in 4-5 games. Then later I played against a slightly upgraded fires of yavimaya deck which also beat me 3 games to 1. Mind you, I tend to not mulligan as much when playing casually, and I don't use my sideboard in such games (which may be the sole reason that I had such a hard time against said decks).
So my conclusions on this are thus: either I don't fully understand how to play this deck yet (which is understandable considering I have only recently picked it up), or this is one of those decks that only does well in an advanced metagame. I mean how does this deck do against random jank? I am wondering this because I most often play in local tournaments where there isn't an advanced metagame, and I really don't want to lose to jank with such an expensive deck.

Considering your disappointing casual experience you answered part of the reasons yourself. UGR-Swans Thresh IS a deck that was developed to win in a competitive environment, meaning it needs to use its SB to be really good.
Some cards that tend to suck in casual metas:
- Stifle ("no fetchies, damn...")
- Wasteland ("only basics" damnit!)
- Daze ("I couldnt disrupt your mana base? Damn Daze!")
- Spellsnare ("only 3 of your spells cost 2?!" meh.)
Bottom line being: Yeah, you'd have to bastardize your deck to make it work better in your environment.

Does anyone have any thoughts? Are my worries warranted? I can give more information if necessary.

Well, if your primary goal is to beat your meta, and want to know how, it'd in fact be helpful if you posted the usual suspects.

[PhanTom_lt]

I also tended to lose with any kind of Threshold against any kind of Standard or Extended decks. It is not built to attack those kinds of decks. SwanThresh performs very good in a normal meta though.

[Taurelin]

If you play SwanThresh against random-junk, another problem is that Counterbalance doesn't have such an impact. Counterbalance is meant to neutralize StoP, Smother and similar removal, for example. If your opponent plays Dark Banishing, instead, you might get into trouble.

The advantage of SwanThresh is then the possibility of the combo kill, since you might simply be faster than those strategies.

[Shugyosha]

The advantage of SwanThresh is then the possibility of the combo kill, since you might simply be faster than those strategies.

That's exactly the way you beat the "random jank" (I use this term but I don't like it) you will eventually meet at tournaments, too. Swanthresh combines Aggro/Control of Threshold with a combo playstyle. When facing decks which are resistant to your aggro/control style you have to switch gears. When playing for the combo you have to keep different hands, play less aggressively with your creatures and burn and you have to plan your two comboturns well because you usually only have one try. With a decent starting hand, its not that hard against decks that can't disrupt you with counters or discard but Crytic Command for example is a beating...

[jazzykat]

Every week I play in a jank meta and time after time my counterbalance ranges from OK, to useless. Klaus hit the nail on the head. However on the topic of Daze, I feel that it is slightly more useful than he let on because normally their cards cost a million mana. The down side to that is that if they wait 1 more turn which is usually all it takes as they often have a million land in the deck in a properly built "cool dudes" deck then they pay for Daze.

I can't tell you how many times Cyrptic Command ruined my day in the late game, when someone was playing a standard deck in a Legacy tournament.

In a jank meta I think you need to be more aggressive in your build and playstyle because if you sit around for their "bad spells" to be cast you just may get hit with a massive hell bent Demonfire or Quagnoth!

[Damnosus]

Ok so I finally got to play SwanThresh at my local tourney. As I mentioned before, I was a little down about it cause it was losing to what I considered to be inferior decks. Since my meta is pretty janky, I was a little worried that I would get creamed because SwanThresh is not really meant for lower grade metas. I used Nihil Credo's list (minus the two spell snares, +1 wipe away, +1 rushing river). This also was one of the smaller tournaments-probably because of the holiday-so it was definitely less competitive. This is what happened (mind you I don't take notes, so this is gonna be very short as I don't totally remember everything):

Round 1: Boros (sort of-more like burn with white creatures).
Game 1: I take some burn hits, used my burn as removal, and eventually I got two threshed Geese out for beat down.
-My sideboard is pretty crappy at the moment. I cannot find any more pyroclasms (I swear I had like 5 at some point in my life) for some stupid reason. Thus I sideboard in my one clasm for a CoP.
Game 2: she gets stuck on 2 mountains, and I proceed to get counter/top (only game that this was really effective) which prevents her from doing anything once she does get some white mana. I win pretty easily.
-After the game I looked through her deck and made some suggestions. She was running 10 mountains and 7 plains, while having silver knights and soltari priests: I suggested she switch the ratio. I even traded an Isamaru for a countryside crusher to help her out (I know I got screwed a little, but hey, I wasn't using it, and I think it will help her deck a bit).

Record: 1-0
Games: 2-0

Round 2: Boros (wth??? This was at least more boros like-more ravnica cards and such).
Game 1: He gets some critters out that I can't initially deal with, so he gets me down pretty low. I however manage to stabilize and I come back to win.
-Sideboard: my single stupid clasm for a CoP.
Game 2: Same sort of thing as above, except he gets me even lower. If he had drawn burn on the turn before I killed him, I would have died.

Record: 2-0
Games: 4-0

Round 3: Meathooks
Game 1: I begin by forcing his turn one vial, then I proceeded to draw almost ever single burn spell I have and I wipe out all of his slivers (never got a crystaline), and then beat him down.
-Sideboard: I had no idea what to do with this one so I wound up siding in 2 grips (for vials), 3x REB, 3x blood moon (I forget for what).
Game 2: Ok so this was my one huge play mistake of the tournament. I wind up playing a blood moon which resolved, thinking that I had already played the wooded foothills in my hand (which would have allowed me to grab the single forest), but no. I suck. So we both get hosed, until he gets some basics, and then builds an army that my single goyf can't handle. After the game he even showed me that he had three BEB, but he realized that the BM was hurting me more than him, so he didn't nuke it. Wow was that dumb .
Game 3: I get some early threats, and he is stuck on 2 underground seas with a very small hand (after a double force against a counterbalance). I proceed to land a BM and he scoops. Hooray for me for not sucking with BM two times in a row.

Record: 3-0
Games: 6-1

Final Round: Mono Green Stompy (no berserks thankfully).
So I had been playing with this guy before the tournament started, and he beat me both times with his stompy deck, thus, I was pretty resigned to my fate coming into this match.
Game 1/2: I am pretty sure I won this one, but it kinda blurred with game 2. One of them I was able to handle things with my goyfs, and one game I wasn't. I wound up siding in a clasm/echoing truth against this in game 2.
Game 3: Things all came down to a timely bolt on a skyshround elite in response to a bounty of the hunt. The card disadvantage was what allowed me to stave off his attacks. Additionally, this was the only game in which I combo'ed off. While that might not warrant its inclusion, it was still really helpful as it allowed me to win sooner than I normally would have (which could have been really bad due to my lack of life). I am definitely liking the inclusion of it.

Record: 4-0
Games 8-2

So I wound up 4-0 in a jank arena, losing only two games (one of which was totally just a dumbass mistake). So I am definitely feeling more confident about the deck.

Thoughts on the deck when playing against jank: the only cards that I would consider changing for jank metas would be the counterbalances. That being said, it is a great card against those rare games when you play something really good. I don't think I will be changing things anytime soon.

[nitewolf9]

I proceed to land a BM and he scoops.

It was quite nice of him to clean up after you.


Yes. This post was very necessary.

[Damnosus]

It was quite nice of him to clean up after you.


Yes. This post was very necessary.

Ok that was horribly childish, and yet absolutely funny. I am still debating whether or not to edit it though (I did not make that jump when I was writing the post).

[Illissius]

Someone please explain this childish humor to me so that I may partake of its enjoyment.

[Nihil Credo]

Someone please explain this childish humor to me so that I may partake of its enjoyment.

Urbandictionary.com has saved me in many similar situations, and this was one of them.

[Damoxx]

It was quite nice of him to clean up after you.


Yes. This post was very necessary.

Here and I thought he was talking about the art on Tarmogoyf...