@Tao: It's been a while since I played anything deadguy-ish competitively. I think my last Bw list played 22 land, with 4 wastes as the manabase. That Bwg list played out very well, oddly enough, but I don't want to get started on how useful the green splash is just now.
Why is it so sacreligious to suggest playing sweepers? If the deck still retains its overall game plan and just focuses in on more better creatures (E. Angel and stalker instead of hippy+whatever which I think are just too small now for use as beaters). It ends up being slower, of course, but better prepared for the meta is not a bad thing. The deck still focuses on winning the long-game through land destruction and mana-denial, although it gets more effective tools to do so.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
I've currently settled on a list similar to Tao's with a few minor changes of
-1 Land
-3 Top
+1 Swords
+ 3 Smallpox
However, Smallpox has been all sorts of meh. I don't like it when I'm behind in the creature race, as it it usually places far too much of a burden on my resources. I don't like it when it needs to be removal, because it will usually take out my lone threat and I don't like it when it needs to be disruption, because it hurts my board creature wise and I usually have a few cards in hand I want to hold on to. In a nutshell, the situation is that when it's good, I feel like there are other things that could have done it's job, and when it's bad, it's really frustrating.
Problem is, I don't know what I can run instead. If I could, I'd run 5 Sinkhole 5 Vindicate and 5 Swords.
Team Rehab- We Keep Coming Back For More
Team Blitzkrieg- Swagga.
Storm Boards
Originally Posted by FakeSpam
@raharu - Your deck looks kinda like BW Aggro with some Deadguy elements, but not quite Deadguy (maybe call it that). An interesting idea. But I think that Wasteland is a necessary card for Deadguy. It makes Sinkhole better in a way, because it gives you 8 land destruction effects (unless you Hymn some).
@Whit3 Ghost - Smallpox is probably not the right direction for the deck. Edicts would be better even though you're probably running it for the combination of removal, discard and land destruction. Maybe Rancid Earth in that slot? It still covers a land kill and kills small creatures. Otherwise run stuff that comes back like Epochrasite (meh) or Nether Spirit (meh) or whatever to support Smallpox.
My experiences with Smallpox were like yours: I didn't like it.
I know that you played and dismissed Top so I try to explain why I run it. An active Top is a better card Quality base than Team America's cantrips. I just played a game on MWS against a BGW Rock deck. In game 3 on the play I mulligan to six and he Thoughtseizes my Hymn away leaving me with a StoP and 4 Lands. Next draw step I draw a Top and from then on I win even though he had a solid draw. Top helped me stabilizing against his Goyf / Hierarch and then made me win the Topdeck war without many problems.
As I said I think Mass Removal would turn the deck too much into a control deck. I also see no need for it. Against other threat-light decks like Thresh or Team America a Spot Removal does nearly the same because they won't play a second creature into BBBB if they already beat for 5/turn. Against Goblins you lose on the long run anyway with or without Mass Removal because of Ringleader. And against Combo or Control Mass Removal is traditionally weak.
I don't play Hippie, it is outclassed by Stalker in nearly every way. I don't like Exalted Angel for many reasons:
- with Exalted + Stalker you can't play Confidant anymore
- Shade, Confidant and Stalker are all must-answers, too and they are much easier to play
- Exalted Angel makes you vulnerable against Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise
@Tao:
I don't play Stalker because Stalker doesn't block as well as Angel. Stalker is meant to be aggressive, and playing aggro against some decks, namely Thresh and anything else faster than you, is suicide. Angel trumps Thresh with an 8 point life swing a turn, something Tombstalker can't do. I'm not saying play BOTH Angel and Stalker, I'm saying play Angel over Stalker. One drawback, however, I confess, is that Angel does cost a lot more mana, and especially a lot more white.
@Rsaunder:
Running sweepers cost mana. Turning this deck into a control deck does, too. This requires us to play more lands. however, with the poor quality of search available in these colors, playing more lands would result in drawing dead lategame (or doing many tricks with Top, which again cost mana, and thus slow you down even further, requiring you to spend mana to make land drops or spend mana to draw useful spells which you then lack mana to cast).
On inevitability, I'm not saying Deadguy necessarily has good inevitability. However, it does at least have Exalted Angels, which are a fast clock, and, if necessary, Volrath's Stronghold to recur them is a viable option (assuming they aren't StPed); and with fast clocks and a bit of inevitability in the form of Stronghold, Deadguy can actually possibly benefit from the tempo gains it creates.
@Whit3 Ghost: I agree wholeheartedly on Smallpox. Most lists nowadays don't play it often though.
Yesterday I reached the top 8 in the Danish Legacy Nationals (although called Grand Tournament due to some Wotc decision or something.)
I'll be posting a report in a few days or so, but for this threads interest, I can say that notable plusses were:
4 Exalted, 3 Grunts (and 4 BOB). This creaturebase worked like a charm for me. I never felt like I had too few or too many, and the grunts came in handy a lot, while the Angels did their thing, racing stuff.
4 Hymn, 4 Gerrards Verdict. I really liked this, but in retrospect would have taken 1 GV out, for the fourth STP. I didn't hit any ANT though, and in this MU 8 2-for-1's is golden.
Ichorid matchup was quite decent postboard, with 4 Ghostly Prison, 4 RoP and 3 EE from the side. Won two rounds against Ichorid.
Congratulations on the top8, Valarne! It's been a long time since Deadguy Ale top 8-ed anything! How many people were in the tournament, btw? (Oh, and what's an RoP?)
About the deck, though, isn't running so much white taxing on your manabase (i.e. forcing you to fetch Scrublands aggressively)? And is Ghostly Prison (which costs 3 mana) too slow in the Ichorid matchup? You also didn't seem to mention Leyline of the Void, even though it was in your list the last time you posted it, if I remember correctly...was it taken out?
Hmm Congratulations anyway!
Regards,
Hummingbird TG
Thanks! I think there was about 86 players.
Manabase: Well it really helps bringing in 8 B/W cards (Verdict and Vindicate), to feed the Mox. There was a few games were I got landdisrupted, and that was a problem - but mostly because I was sitting with a Wasteland or Stronghold along with one land, and a bad hand for it. Getting WW wasn't generally an issue.
RoP is Relic of Progenitus. I used this instead of Leyline because it is a bit more versatile, and not a dead topdeck. Its quite ok against Ichorid, and useful against Thresh, which is a tough matchup.
I actually didn't draw any Ghostly Prisons, because I had hands with RoP and/or EE and Grunt. But they would have been awesome I'm sure. It can hit the table by turn 2, and of course this can be too slow, but when its accompanied with other anti-threats, then I think its fine. Remember that, if it resolves, then its probably GG, considering the 12 Landdestruction effects in Deadguy. All that aside, I was aiming for a versatile SB, and the Prisons would be useful in a lot of other tough matchups, such as Zoo, which was/is rampant in the Danish meta.
Congratulations for your top8!!
Can you post yuor decklist? Because I don't know it and I would like see it.
tnx
Thanks, and sure. The list was:
4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Exalted Angel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrards Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Chrome Mox
SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Explosives
Here's the report:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=11978
This looks like a good list, but I have a few questions. First, how does it do against decks with CounterTop, particularly Threshold variants and Dreadstill? Looking strictly at the cmc spread of the deck, it would seem like CounterTop would be a big, fat, game-ending kick in the junk. On the other hand, I could see them having to get past so much discard and LD in order to get CB on the table that they would be basically out of cards when they did, and their CB would just suck a Vindicate. Which is it? Also, how is the AggroLoam matchup? Finally, is it really worth it to sideboard Engineered Explosives when the highest it can go is 2? What matches do you bring it in for, and how has it been?
EDIT: Another question: Do you have issues with threat density?
Proud member of team theVault.
Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards.
It makes them soggy and hard to light.
Well, CounterTop doesn't seem to be too popular anymore, in the metas I run into. It can be tough, as always, but I still fell that theres a decent spread between the 1, 2, and 3 cmc, too allow one to play around it - and yeah having 4 Vindicates relieves the stress of seeing Countertop, or Chalice at 1 AND 2, which I tried once in the tourney.
Thresh is a tough matchup, worse than StifleNought I think, because their beats are so solid and persistant, while I have a lot of removal for the one Nought that tend to see the table.
AggroLoam can also be bad, preboard, but isn't played enough to really scare me as such. EE is so versatile, especially against tokens, and Counterbalance for instance. Primarily though for Zoo, which presents too many threats, but all ranging at 1cc or 2cc.
The threat density was a problem, but I felt that it improved vastly when I just ran 3 Grunts, because they are solid once they hit - and I don't want to play any creatures until I have severed their hand, and hopefully their land as well - feeding the grave, and giving Grunt a long life.
Thanks for the questions!
ps: Yea, when the deck is running smoothly, it can really hold people off having permanents, which is nice:)
edit: heres the top8 decklist: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...cy+Champs+2008
Last edited by Valarne; 11-26-2008 at 08:38 AM. Reason: deckcheck
First post to source :) Yai.
So.. I have recently played with this kind of list:
5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Tainted Field
1 Volrath's Stronghold
21
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Tombstalker
13
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant (Random)
26
I have been very satisfied with Tombstalker. I really would like to play three of them but can't do that because of Confidants. I have also tried Jitte's and Sofais but those just doesn't work for me.
What do you think about Tidehollow Sculler? Sounds pretty good to me.
Tomb of Urami?
I think that Goblins and Sligh are quite bad matchups :/
Also Countertop is annoying against this deck. Gotta try changing Disenchants to Dismantling Blows.
-Ziilot
Hello then!
Why Dismantling Blows, when youre playing no blue manasources (unless I'm missing it)? Simply because of CounterTop? How about Engineered Explosives instead? This can be set to your desired manacost, and take other stuff than just Counterbalance.
Bleh I had to dig to page 2 to get this thread. Looks like it's time for a bump to the first page eh?
Anyway what I'm posting about is the Threshold matchup, or rather a question on it. It appears to me that we're strictly outclassed by Threshold in terms of deck strategy and execution thereof (Our disruption costs us mana, their disruption costs US mana (and is free for them); their search/draw is better than ours (Cantrips v. 4 Dark Confidants); and they have a lock against almost everything we play (and it's hard to kill them fast enough before they set it down).
So how do we play this matchup? And how do we side?(I'm playing Valarne's list, btw.) I presume we side in Relic of Progenitus, but then what do we take out? Should we play additional outs to CB, btw?
Yeah Thresh is really a pain. Well, being a DTB for a long time has its reasons. If the Thresh-player is running CounterTop, we could bring in some EE, along with maybe 2-3 Relics. We shouldnt compromise to much of our own strategy, but I'm thinking that siding out the Sinkholes should be ok. It really weakens our LD, but against Thresh, this rarely seems game-ending anyway (because of their low cmc). Our gameplan would then switch from heavy-LD to spot-removing their few threats.
EE is a tool against CounterTop, but also their oftentimes onesided table of Goyfs or Geese.
So -4 Sinkhole +2 Relic +2 EE? I'd personally like more EEs, though...
How about game one, btw? It seems we just lose that game... (Thresh has the amazing ability to play so many cards in its deck that wreck us, such that just topdecking one after all our disruption means it can win...
By the way, why not side in CotV at 1 (stops Swords to Plowshares, and Cantrips, and if it drops before Top, stops CB lock)? (But of course there's the problem as to what to side out...)
As to game one; As you pointed out earlier in the thread (if my memory serves me) getting an Exalted Angel to stick and perform beats, should be able to do the trick. In general its tough, as you point out, because their deck is more consistent than ours. If we know the opponent is playing Thresh, then we can't allow for a semi-weak hand, but really have to make sure that we can put some pressure from the beginning(bearing Daze in mind still).
I considered CotV at some point, and it might be good, but should we then board out Thoughtseize and STP? Those are great in this matchup as well. Plus we kinda force our selves to mull for land, Chrome and Cotv, because we have put so much of the decks energy in this direction (which can be forced or dazed, if it is pursued so aggressively).
It might work, but on paper (havent tested sufficiently), i'd prefer some mix of EE and Relic. Maybe more could be sided out for more EE, maybe some Gerrards Verdict. EE certainly is a bomb, as they have no recursion, and few ways to deal with a Grunt or Angel holding of Geese or shrinking Goyfs.
My biggest problem with the stick an Angel gameplan is that Thresh always seems to have Swords to Plowshares somewhere, else it'd just shuffle its deck with fetches and do a bit of Topping, and voila. Chalice stops that. Of course, we have to side out swords, but we can side them out for the Engineered Explosives we're bringing in, so we aren't short on removal. We can then, as you suggested, side out the Verdicts for Relics. (I wouldn't oppose to keeping in thoughtseizes though. Turn 1 Thoughtseize Turn 2 Chalice sounds amazingly attractive).
I don't actually propose that we should mull for Chalice (We have enough problems finding a keepable hand with adequate disruption and mana anyway, and I don't think we need to increase those problems). However, Chalice is a must counter, meaning they have one less counter for our Angels, Bobs and Grunts when they do come down (sadly when CB is down this all means nothing). And preferably, their counters would have been worn down removing our earlier disruption/creatures.
On a tangent, what's your opinion on running Maindecked Chalice, as opposed to maindeck StP? Of course, we're going to have to fit in alternative removal somewhere, maybe EE... Would this increase our Artifact Count too much for Chrome Mox? And is this idea even tenable?
---
EDIT: I made a new post for the following, but discovered it took up a new page, so I moved it here instead and deleted that.
I had a sudden brainwave:
How about siding Sudden Spoiling for Threshold? It makes all their creatures lose to our creatures, and it can't be countered.
Although I do have to admit that against Thresh even having creatures is extremely lucky, so i guess it may not solve anything at all...
Last edited by Hummingbird TG; 12-27-2008 at 12:45 PM.
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