[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[klaus]

So I guess my basic question is: How important is Spell Snare, and how are OK are you without FoF main, Stifle, or a bigger wishboard.

Yo aldaryn.
Regarding Wish board:
The Core:
1 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pulse ot. Fields
1 Return to Dust or Dismantling Blow (since you're into drawing xtra cards)
1 Enlightened Tutor.
As you realized there are tons of Wish target goodies that you could fit in the remaining 10 slots. Unfortunately, the space NEEDS to be used otherwise:
5-6 combo hate/control dominance/allrounder: "x" Meddling Mage "y" Runed Halo"
4 Graveyard hate i.e.: 1 Extirpate, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Relic of Progenitus.
1 Meta Slot (could be a Wish target, too).
---
Regarding Stifle:
Stifle s no longer good in LS.
There are 2 major reasons for that:
1.0) You run enough basics = many lands are wasteland-proofalready
2.0) Storm Combo protects itself nowadays (Chant etc.)
2.1) Ad Nauseam ridicules Stifle as combo hate.

I don't see a reason to not run 1-2 Fact or Fictions beside getting Dazed sucks, the format's gotten faster (though some might be of a different opinion here), making CMC 4 spells less powerfull, potentially. Many have adopted 2 Ponder in the former FOF slot.

Spell Snare:
3 CS ("long term control") + 3 Spellsnares ("fast control") = treating me good sofar. That's all I can say.

Hope that helps.
Klaus.

[mossivo1986]

Yo aldaryn.
Regarding Wish board:
The Core:
1 Extirpate
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pulse ot. Fields
1 Return to Dust or Dismantling Blow (since you're into drawing xtra cards)
1 Enlightened Tutor.
As you realized there are tons of Wish target goodies that you could fit in the remaining 10 slots. Unfortunately, the space NEEDS to be used otherwise:
5-6 combo hate/control dominance/allrounder: "x" Meddling Mage "y" Runed Halo"
4 Graveyard hate i.e.: 1 Extirpate, 1 Tormod's Crypt, 2 Relic of Progenitus.
1 Meta Slot (could be a Wish target, too).
---
Regarding Stifle:
Stifle s no longer good in LS.
There are 2 major reasons for that:
1.0) You run enough basics = many lands are wasteland-proofalready
2.0) Storm Combo protects itself nowadays (Chant etc.)
2.1) Ad Nauseam ridicules Stifle as combo hate.

I don't see a reason to not run 1-2 Fact or Fictions beside getting Dazed sucks, the format's gotten faster (though some might be of a different opinion here), making CMC 4 spells less powerfull, potentially. Many have adopted 2 Ponder in the former FOF slot.

Spell Snare:
3 CS ("long term control") + 3 Spellsnares ("fast control") = treating me good sofar. That's all I can say.

Hope that helps.
Klaus.

I tried the 2-2 split and I was really not satisfied with the hands I was presented with often times. I always wanted ponder or brainstorm, so as der has mentioned to me, going 3ponder 2 snare 1 counterspell is what he plays and what im going to try.

[Pelikanudo]

Well this is the list I've seen currently the most updated . and after some testings in mws I 've reached to some conclusions:

2 Humility
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
1 Crucible of worlds
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon

1 Wasteland
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
2 Plains
3 Island
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Tundra

3 Engineered Explosives
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Dismantling Blow

a) Elspeth is one and for all the card which replaces the 3rd decree , correct, by the moment.

b) the 3 counterspell , 3 snares 4 fow seem to me the perfect counterspell package .

c) regarding the 2 humilty slot, I noticed we only need 1 humilty to be played in order to win certain games ,therefore I've been thinking in replacing it by 1 tutor , but not convinced

d) regarding the mana base 24 lands 1 Eternal dragon seems to be perfect :
the wasteland slot is outdated, now its natural replacement is dust bowl, however , it is certain we can find it via tolaria , but I feel its number must be 2, therefore according to this number we can perfectly take out crucible of worlds, because it's only utility is now to make recurring mishras, not enough reason, in conclusion to this I can say as well we can need some more addition of land-advantage and therefore the mana base 23 lands 2 eternal dragon seems to me the ritgh shot.

f) If we dispense with the recurrency of mishras, we can consider we loose in certain way a win condition, the second E.Dragon can not be enough, Even we reduce the number of lands , so the 3rd decree as both , cantrip card and not receiver of the number of win cond . Elspeth in that way can be replaced by 3rd decree, but still testing

e) Something I've noticed is the importance of the card cunnin wish in certain match ups, because withouth them we simply loose. these match ups are mainly :
- Burn
- Life from the loam archetypes
and because of the flexibility it offers, this card in part defines the concept of 'deck with response', a card that want to be drawn always. therefore its natural number must be 3 .

f) in regard to the configuration of the sideboard, we can perfectly change :
-1 relic of progenitus + 1 Enlitghned tutor, in order to make the side more flexible because of the number of C.Wish , withouth loosing consistency.
OR
-1 Relic of progenitus +1 extirpate , making posible the 3 targetables Extirpate reciprocal to the number of C.Wish.

these conclusions are demonstrated in the list as fowolls:
2 Humility
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish // +1

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Decree of Justice // I recognize I haven't tested 'Elspeth, Knight-Errant ' and I can not affirm this is the correct addition , however agreed to point f) I'll let it with this modification

3 Engineered Explosives
2 Eternal Dragon // +1

1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
2 Dust Bowl // +1
4 Mishra's Factory

1 Polluted Delta // -1
4 Flooded Strand
2 Plains
2 Island // -1
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
4 Tundra


Sideboard:
2 Extirpate
4 Meddling Mage
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus // -1
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Enlitghned Tutor.



As Esperience demonstrate playing less than 3 cunnin wish is a big mistake if you play 2 yuo have possibilities of loosing vs burn... but cutting 1 snares is not the ritgh move
Ideas, suggestions, onions ?

[aldaryn]

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be playing with the list and reserving judgment before I tweak it, but my next question is about some subtleties in the manabase. I see lists with variations of 0-1 Tolaria West, Dust Bowl, and Wasteland. Just how important are any of these cards? T. West seems slow for Legacy, and in a deck with Crucible it seems like Wasteland > Dust Bowl... now tell me why I'm wrong :)

[Serbitar]

Alot of UWb Landstill lists have cut the Crucible (or play only one), making Dust Bowl better for what you want it to do: which is not to wastelock the opponent but to be able to pick off 'utility-lands' like Volrath's Stronghold and the like (or Manlands).

Tolaria West is sometimes clunky, but great against certain decks, since it fetches both parts of the Academy Ruins - EE combo, which is devastating say against Thresh. Still you wouldn't want more copies of Ruins (legendary, colorless...), so Tolaria West can act as a - clunky - extra copy, but with added flexibility. It gets the Dust Bowl too, Factory (e.g. under a Standstill) and EE.

Both are long game cards, close some holes (Dust Bowl) and give inevitability.

[klaus]

Alot of UWb Landstill lists have cut the Crucible (or play only one), making Dust Bowl better for what you want it to do: which is not to wastelock the opponent but to be able to pick off 'utility-lands' like Volrath's Stronghold and the like (or Manlands).

Tolaria West is sometimes clunky, but great against certain decks, since it fetches both parts of the Academy Ruins - EE combo, which is devastating say against Thresh. Still you wouldn't want more copies of Ruins (legendary, colorless...), so Tolaria West can act as a - clunky - extra copy, but with added flexibility. It gets the Dust Bowl too, Factory (e.g. under a Standstill) and EE.
Both are long game cards, close some holes (Dust Bowl) and give inevitability.

Don't forget, it fetches Tormod's Crypt, too if need be.

[FredMaster]

But since Relic is more efficent, you argument is invalid

I am tinkering to run an Uwg version of the deck on a bigger event this weekend. Since Relic is the Extirpate of today, and many lists ran only 1 in the wishboard anyways, Wish became weaker and weaker (not everybody plays the Slaughter Pact in sideboard anymore).
My teammate thought of playing G instead of B, for example for Grip.
He replaced the 2 maindeck Wishes by 2 Krosan Grip. Therefore the Sideboard gets imo more efficient, having enough space for both Halo and multipe Blasts.
The downside obviously is less flexability preboard. Not having the opportunity to fetch an enlightened tutor for Crucible, or saving yourself due to a POT Fields actually doesn't feel too good.

Comments?

[rockout]

I'm currently running a UWg list with 2 main deck Krosan Grip. I run green for only Krosan Grip. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to grip an ee/pernicious deed/powder keg and save your permanents. It's never been a dead card for me. Since I am not running the wishboard, I have multiple Blue Elemental Blast in the board in addition to fitting Ajani, Runed Halo, Meddling Mage and Relic. It allows me to have a stronger sideboard plan against more decks instead of having to pay 2U for an answer.

I used to run a UWb version with Bitterblossom main deck and Extirpate/Engineered Plague out of the board and I think Engineered Plague just isn't as good as a well timed wrath effect against goblins or meathooks. It may be easier to stall with Plague but running Humility forces the aggro player to overextend making your Engineered Explosives and Wrath of God spells that more more potent. I run Humility as a personal preference.

I went off on a tangent not sticking to the question from the previous poster. The first paragraph is the only one that makes any sense. Whoops.

[Wargoos]

I'm currently running a UWg list with 2 main deck Krosan Grip. I run green for only Krosan Grip. I can't tell you how satisfying it is to grip an ee/pernicious deed/powder keg and save your permanents. It's never been a dead card for me. Since I am not running the wishboard, I have multiple Blue Elemental Blast in the board in addition to fitting Ajani, Runed Halo, Meddling Mage and Relic. It allows me to have a stronger sideboard plan against more decks instead of having to pay 2U for an answer.

I don't know but this sounds exactly like my build.
High Five!

[mossivo1986]

For all the players who are dissing on 2xwish if your not running 4brainstorm 3ponder or something to that tune then your obviously never going to hit wish, unless its realisticly in your opener. Wish is absolutely a 2 of in these decks.

Splashing green in landstill instead of black you say. Cutting wish and wishboard for 2 grips seems not only underpowered but alittle rediculous. Not only are you cutting your extirpate, but your counting on a maindeck disenchant in an off color to take place of your toolbox, which at times may be good, but in the long run doesn't seem feasable.

Tolaria west is absolutely neccesary in the deck and if it ends up being clunky for you then your transmuting at the wrong times. The theory behind it is that it gives you your removal/wincondition/ land fixing for the turn, or its just a supbar nonbasic island. Either way it deserves the one slot it takes in both the 3 color and 4 color list.

On the other hand dustbowl is so good its scary. I was bringing in dustbowl almost every matchup in the recent tourney I played in. Even against dragon stompy it was incredible. Now granted it is a bit more expensive, but basicly it reads take your advantage in lands that you already have and use it directly against your opponent. Transmuting under standstill with tolaria west even if they have manlands, getting your dustbowl solves all of these problems.

to add on to this uwg list we are talking about if I were going to play uwg i'd play the wish board still and utilize it with seed spark which is better then return to dust in humility builds. I might also might consider bant charm as odd as it sounds.

[FredMaster]

to add on to this uwg list we are talking about if I were going to play uwg i'd play the wish board still and utilize it with seed spark which is better then return to dust in humility builds.

Not really man.
1. Return to Dust removes
2. Return to Dust targets up to two.

Seed Spark needs the G to be at least passable.

[konsultant]

For all the players who are dissing on 2xwish if your not running 4brainstorm 3ponder or something to that tune then your obviously never going to hit wish, unless its realisticly in your opener. Wish is absolutely a 2 of in these decks.

Splashing green in landstill instead of black you say. Cutting wish and wishboard for 2 grips seems not only underpowered but alittle rediculous. Not only are you cutting your extirpate, but your counting on a maindeck disenchant in an off color to take place of your toolbox, which at times may be good, but in the long run doesn't seem feasable.

Tolaria west is absolutely neccesary in the deck and if it ends up being clunky for you then your transmuting at the wrong times. The theory behind it is that it gives you your removal/wincondition/ land fixing for the turn, or its just a supbar nonbasic island. Either way it deserves the one slot it takes in both the 3 color and 4 color list.

On the other hand dustbowl is so good its scary. I was bringing in dustbowl almost every matchup in the recent tourney I played in. Even against dragon stompy it was incredible. Now granted it is a bit more expensive, but basicly it reads take your advantage in lands that you already have and use it directly against your opponent. Transmuting under standstill with tolaria west even if they have manlands, getting your dustbowl solves all of these problems.

to add on to this uwg list we are talking about if I were going to play uwg i'd play the wish board still and utilize it with seed spark which is better then return to dust in humility builds. I might also might consider bant charm as odd as it sounds.

I ran the UWg list with MD Grips to quite a bit of success. The main differences were the UWg list is more of a meta game list where the Wish list is alot more versatile. If you are playing in a field of Painter's combo, MUC, Dreadstill and other Counterbalance based decks the UWg list is a far better choice. For a more versatile enviorment the Wish list or something like my Vindicate list is probably the best call.

[kensook]

Are there any good UWg lists I can look at? I don't really see any reason to touch green over black, as black offers extirpate, engineered plague, slaughter pact, and in some lists vindicate, and green can be for... krosan grip only?

[Citrus-God]

Are there any good UWg lists I can look at? I don't really see any reason to touch green over black, as black offers extirpate, engineered plague, slaughter pact, and in some lists vindicate, and green can be for... krosan grip only?

Yea, but the only main cards we use off Black is Vindicate and Extirpate. I dont see Extirpate being any better than Relic of Progenitus and thanks to Relic of Progenitus, Green for Krosan Grip will be viable. Especially since it has a more efficient graveyard hoser. Of course, you also have the option of running 4 colors as well for both Extirpate, Slaughter Pact, and Cunning Wish as well as Krosan Grip.

[mossivo1986]

Not really man.
1. Return to Dust removes
2. Return to Dust targets up to two.

Seed Spark needs the G to be at least passable.

Valid points, but:

1. How many times do you disenchant for 2 when using return to dust. Frankly I wouldn't cast return to dust on my own mainphase unless it was absolutely vital. I would probobly play dismantling blow over return to dust and i'd deffinately play seed spark over dismantling blow.

2. It does remove but how much does that really come into play. Last time I checked darksteel collosus wasn't a big player in this format.
3. the green mana replaces double white and in a uwg list g shouldn't be that relevant most of the time.

The main argument I have is that the 2 tokens are excellent to get off of seed spark. Its not only a change of tempo, but it acts as a small decree in the sense that it not only gives you win conditions, but it opens up your mana for your turn but also allows you to react properly on your opponents following turn which return to dust does not. Bottom line all 3 are disenchants for 3-4 mana, but only two really net you a solid advantage, the other just leaves you tapped out and hoping they dont blood moon/armageddon/ produce a second counterbalance again. I'm not willing to take those chances, are you?

kensook: That is exactly my point. If I were going to touch green I mine as well go four color as extirpate via wish gets rid of enough matchups preboard to make it golden in almost any landstill variant, as they all splash blue and all have a small enough space for wishboards to make it previlant. The other half is that if I were going to run green I don't think i'd play grip, i'd play seed spark as a target for wish, and also LFTL instead of crucible, and probobly run 2 dragons instread of one. This gives you an added bonus on win conditions and pure card advantage against lame discard decks as they can never truly hoze you before turn four.

[Hanni]

Are there any good UWg lists I can look at? I don't really see any reason to touch green over black, as black offers extirpate, engineered plague, slaughter pact, and in some lists vindicate, and green can be for... krosan grip only?

Extirpate is subpar in comparison to Relic of Progenitus, Engineered Plague is narrow and useless unless the metagame is infested with Goblins (or other tribal decks), Slaughter Pact seems pointless aside from being a strong Cunning Wish target, and Krosan Grip is stronger against opposing artifacts/enchantments than Vindicate (albeit Vindicate is much more versatile since it can hit whatever).

In all honesty, I only splash green for 1 maindeck Nantuko Monastery (replaceable with Mutavault or Conclave) and 3 sideboard Krosan Grips. The U/W fraimwork keeps it simple and makes the manabase extremely stable. I don't think either black nor green is a mandatory splash, and that the deck can just as easily function as U/W. The minor third splash does make EE stronger though, and I find Krosan Grip to be better than anything black can offer.

Just for quick reference, here's my current list:

U/W/g Kaezurstill

// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [B] Tundra
2 [A] Tropical Island
4 [OD] Island (4)
2 [5E] Plains (3)
1 [JU] Nantuko Monastery
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [R] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Wrath of God
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [U] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

After playing with CounterTop in Landstill, I found it to be far too strong to not run. The entire idea behind CounterTop fills the exact niche that Landstill wants; control over the gamestate whilst at the same time gaining card advantage while doing so. Top itself is so rediculously good that there is no reason to not run it. CounterTop is fantastic and I'd never play Landstill without it again.

Other than that, the only thing that massively stands out are 2 Eternal Dragon and 4 Wrath of God, instead of a 2/2/2 split of Decree/Humility/WoG. In my limited testing with the Counterbalance variation, I found greater consistency overall with my current configuration. Doesn't mean my current setup is correct, but I'm just presenting a framework to you because you asked to see a U/W/g list.

[rockout]

@Konsultant: I'm a huge fan of both your builds and have played both of them on MWS and only UWg in tournament due to the lack of vindicates. Consider me a fan boy.

Some questions: Have you jumped ship with the rest of the Landstill community and started running a 1:1 Elspeth to Decree ratio? In your list from the Binghamton Legacy 1k, why did you drop mishra's factory to a 3-of and not run academy ruins?

The decklist for reference:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20070

[Bardo]

Are there any good UWg lists I can look at? I don't really see any reason to touch green over black, as black offers extirpate, engineered plague, slaughter pact, and in some lists vindicate, and green can be for... krosan grip only?

Another option, is to push the black cards to the sideboard, with a couple of U Seas to support them in G2/3.

Here's my Uwg/b list from testing today:

4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Fact or Fiction

4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives

4 Tarmogoyf

4 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Island

Sideboard
4 Hydroblast
4 Planar Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip

The deck is mainly base-blue, with a maindeck W/G splash for 4x StP/Goyf. Seas are for Planar Void and Plagues in the side, while giving Explosives a modest boost in the main. In G1, the Seas are mainly a vulnerable sort of basic Island (Wasteland, PoP, etc.), but in the right meta, those downsides are compensated by the flexibility you gain in the sideboard.

Shackles, Deed, Bant Charm, C//P and a few other cards were tested and then cut for being too slow. Fact is slow, but you have enough mana to support it and the deck is pretty poor when it comes to top-decking. Fact helps power of out of stalls, grows Monastery and is a decent Demonic Tutor.

After playing with CounterTop in Landstill, I found it to be far too strong to not run. The entire idea behind CounterTop fills the exact niche that Landstill wants; control over the gamestate whilst at the same time gaining card advantage while doing so. Top itself is so rediculously good that there is no reason to not run it. CounterTop is fantastic and I'd never play Landstill without it again.

Definitely. It also owns in match-ups that have been poor vs. Landstill in the past; mainly, fast aggro and storm-combo.

T1 Top / T2 CB vs. R/g(/w) Beatdown is game on its own.

[Citrus-God]

@Konsultant: I'm a huge fan of both your builds and have played both of them on MWS and only UWg in tournament due to the lack of vindicates. Consider me a fan boy.

Some questions: Have you jumped ship with the rest of the Landstill community and started running a 1:1 Elspeth to Decree ratio? In your list from the Binghamton Legacy 1k, why did you drop mishra's factory to a 3-of and not run academy ruins?

The decklist for reference:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20070

He needed to run more Black sources so that he's able to consistently be able to have the mana up on Turn 3 to cast Vindicate. Besides that, you never really activate your Factories unless you're under Standstill usually. And when you do activate it outside of Standstill, you've gotten control of the game.

Personally, I find Elspeth and DoJ more important than Factories being a 3-of. Elspeth and DoJ are your primary win conditions, obviously. And of course, if you're going to add Elspeth, that gives you even more of an incentive to cut a Factory for a better blocker: Elspeth.

[Blitzbold]

I really like your list, Bardo.

However, with it's color combination and the inclusion of Goyfs it looks quite similar to ITF. The difference is within about 8-10 cards, namely Standstills, FoF, Manlands and the lack of Deeds. I wonder whether this was done intentionally?