[DTB] Vial Goblins

[loop]

That sounds awfully complex.
Why not just use the fanatic on goyf, let it resolve, then crack the relic?
If they respond by cracking a fetch or playing an instant, well, it'll still be removed by relic and Goyf dies when SBEs are checked.
Or am I missing something?

[nitewolf9]

That sounds awfully complex.
Why not just use the fanatic on goyf, let it resolve, then crack the relic?
If they respond by cracking a fetch or playing an instant, well, it'll still be removed by relic and Goyf dies when SBEs are checked.
Or am I missing something?

No, you're not missing anything. That's what "most people" would probably do. I was just sort of operating within the context of that example for some reason to prove why it wouldn't work with that sequence.

[Nihil Credo]

I was just sort of operating within the context of that example for some reason to prove why it wouldn't work with that sequence.

Ouch - my face! Hey Mr. Signorini, next time give a warning shout before back-pedalling that fast!

(I'm also challenging you on a "Most Useless DTBF Post" contest)

[nitewolf9]

Ouch - my face! Hey Mr. Signorini, next time give a warning shout before back-pedalling that fast!

(I'm also challenging you on a "Most Useless DTBF Post" contest)

I have not yet begun to defile my reputation (graciously assuming I have one).

[Media314r8]

The resons are basicly 2 imo:

1- Tormod kept their creatures small for a bit of time. It needed a couple turns at least to build a 7 card graveyard even with mental note. With Goyf in place of Werebear, the opponent can just keep any istant+ a fetch in play and make the Goyf a 2/3 instantly (which is bigger than any creature in the deck). Even istantly making a 1/2 goyf (with just a fetch in play OR instant in hand) can block every Lackey, Matron, Fanatic and even a Piledriver attacking alone.

2- Thresh-type decks adopted stifle as a staple MD card. So you can do savage tricks like attacking, letting him block with goyf, assign dmg, pop Relic and watch the goyf die as state based effect even if the opponent has a fetch and an istant in hand. But if the opponent plays a stifle he just 2 for 1ed you and you're probably screwed.

3. Relic is not a goblin, and you're likely bringing four out, thus making ringleader, arguably the MVP of this MU, less powerful.

[Zinch]

That sounds awfully complex.
Why not just use the fanatic on goyf, let it resolve, then crack the relic?
If they respond by cracking a fetch or playing an instant, well, it'll still be removed by relic and Goyf dies when SBEs are checked.
Or am I missing something?

ok... that's what I wanted to say, but for an unknown reason I put a in response in a wrong place. My bad.

[Justin]

@Justin: Could you please elaborate on why Relic of Progenitus isn't worth it against Threshold? I read an old SCG article by Bardo and Machinus on Threshold vs. Goblins and Machinus even SB-ed in Tormod's Crypt against them. It would seem Relic is awesome against Threshold, it stops their assault because you use the remove a card ability each turn and then it allows you to kill a Goyf or a Mongoose for free by activating it's second ability.

Green One answered this question exactly right. When I first starting playing goblins a couple years ago, I boarded in Tormod's Crypt against Threshold, but it wasn't very effective for the reasons that Green One mentioned. Anytime you board in a non-goblin card, you need to make sure that it will be highly effective. I have to admit, though, that I have not tested Relic against Thresh. So I could be wrong on my assessment.

Mantis, I realize that your build is Rb, while mine is Rbg. I like to board in Choke against Threshold to keep all their lands from untapping the rest of the game. Choke cannot be stifled or needled and it resolves a lot more than you would think. Threshold opponents usually spend their countermagic against my early threats (Vial, Lackey, etc.) and often don't have an answer left when I go for Choke.

[Tacosnape]

Green One answered this question exactly right. When I first starting playing goblins a couple years ago, I boarded in Tormod's Crypt against Threshold, but it wasn't very effective for the reasons that Green One mentioned. Anytime you board in a non-goblin card, you need to make sure that it will be highly effective. I have to admit, though, that I have not tested Relic against Thresh. So I could be wrong on my assessment.

You are.

Relic is the bane of Tarmogoyf's existence. Not only can an early Relic just sit there and tap and munch singleton cards for a few turns, when you're ready to crack the bitch, it gets rid of YOUR graveyard too, making Tarmogoyf lose Creature, Land, and verry possibly either artifact (If they countered your Vials) or Tribal and Sorcery. Oh, and, know what else is neat? It cantrips. The entire reason you don't board in Crypt against Threshold, other than that Crypt is way worse against Goyf than it was against Werebear? Is that Crypt costs you a card for that little effect. Relic gives you a bigger effect and doesn't cost you the card.

Goblins has absolutely no use for a graveyard unless you're playing subpar goblins (Hint: They start with W and end with Ort, Boggart Auntie). So Relic sweeping your own yard in the process is very often a blessing in disguise.

Also, as for the "How to Mogg Fanatic a Tarmogoyf correctly when you have a Relic in play" discussion? The answer is probably that you don't. Because you should be boarding out at least three of your Mogg Fanatics against Threshold, as they completely suck ass outside of this one situation and are your weakest card in the matchup short of Tin-Street Hooligan. (EDIT: But if you are for some reason? Loop's way is probably the best idea, assuming you can dodge Stifle.)

[Mantis]

Tacosnape is 100% right. Seriously, Threshold is the beatdown deck in this matchup slowing them down this much gives you the time to get Siege-Gang's into play and Ringleaders active. Also, it makes Threshold's creatures lose their surperior P/T stats and forces them to trade 1 for 1 with your creatures. As Goblins has like 3x as much creatures in their deck this situation obviously favors the Goblins player.

And it cantrips.

@Justin, I can see that you are not willing to take out 7 creatures for the Threshold match, that would dilute your deck and weaken your gameplan and I obviously understand that. I have never tried Choke in Goblins, so I can hardly say anything on this matter. Please consider my post aimed at everyone else then.

I would also like to respond on Stifle. That card screws you either way, if they don't use it on Relic they will use it on Siege Gang, Ringleader or Matron. And it can be played around.

[Justin]

You guys make a good case that Relic is good against Thresh, but I have another problem with it. I currently have Leyline of the Void as my graveyard-hate sideboard card. Granted, it's not as useful against Thresh as Relic, but it seems alot better against Ichorid and Aggro Loam. Both of these decks are among the most popular in Legacy. I've been playing against a lot of Aggro Loam lately. Relic doesn't stop their Countryside Crushers from growing. I just feel more comfortable going with Leyline and mulling aggresively to find it in the needed matchups.

[ScatmanX]

Leyline is better agains´t decks using Ill-Gotten-Gains also.
Maybe we should make a list, pointing out in wich scenarios one is better than the other. But I think it´s only a matter of taste (and meta).

[Tacosnape]

I would also like to respond on Stifle. That card screws you either way, if they don't use it on Relic they will use it on Siege Gang, Ringleader or Matron. And it can be played around.

I pretty much agree with this.

The positive way of looking at this is that every Stifle they spend on a Relic they aren't spending on a Ringleader, SGC, or Matron. About twelve years ago my Magic mentor taught me that every deck I ran should either have several artifacts or none, to either flood more than they could hate on or make their hate dead in their hand. While rudimentary in philosophy and not always truly the right choice, the concept behind this is always worth considering. It was taught to teach me how not to lose to Disenchant. Here we similarly apply it to Stifle. They can't Stifle everything.

It's also worth considering that Stifle might see less play thanks to Ad Nauseam providing resilience against the card. Time will tell.

[Shriekmaw]

Leyline is better agains´t decks using Ill-Gotten-Gains also.
Maybe we should make a list, pointing out in wich scenarios one is better than the other. But I think it´s only a matter of taste (and meta).

I can't see a good reason to run Leyline at all in Goblins. The only time I actually ran it in the board was when all the brokeness with Flash happened. Since that deck is gone, I can't justify running Leyline at all in the sideboard of goblins.

If you want graveyard hate then I suggest running relic in the board, its better than crypt most of the time and it cantrips which is always a plus.

I think the discussion should focus on cards in the main deck or which version of goblins is actually better. 2 color verus 3 color?

[Tacosnape]

I think the discussion should focus on cards in the main deck or which version of goblins is actually better. 2 color verus 3 color?

Summarized neatly, here's why you splash, in order of power:

1. Warren Weirding (Black)
2. Tin-Street Hooligan (Green)
3. Enchantment Removal (Green)

Everything else is overrated, including Wort, Squad, Discard, and whatever else you want to pull in from Green.

Warren Weirding and Tin-Street Hooligan are the two best cards they've printed for Vial Goblins since Legacy started. Both are incredible powerhouses that cover a weakness of the deck, and do so at the deck's absolute weakest point in the mana curve - the 2CC slot. One requires Black. One requires Green. If you want to be able to get both, you have to run three colors.

I will say that if you aren't going to play at least 2-3 Tin-Street Hooligans in your 75, you probably shouldn't bother splashing Green and should just get a Tinkerer or not worry about artifacts.

[kabal]

Summarized neatly, here's why you splash, in order of power:

1. Warren Weirding (Black)
2. Tin-Street Hooligan (Green)
3. Enchantment Removal (Green)

You are saying white isn't worth splashing for StP?

[Eldariel]

White is an interesting case because while it doesn't grant you a single new Goblin you'd want to play, it gives you pretty much the best non-Goblin answers to all your problems. Green and black both offer great Goblins you'd want to use, but neither handles all, creatures, artifacts and enchantments. White handles all those, but doesn't do so in a manner Goblins can truly appreciate. That said, Rw mana is much less suspectible to hate than Rgb mana, so there's something to consider in there. And of course, none of the colours solves combo in a satisfactory manner, which is a pity really - having a 40/60 match would be far better than the 20/80 we're looking at right now, and would mean you could afford one-two combo pairings over the tournament without losing your chance to win.

[Tacosnape]

You are saying white isn't worth splashing for StP?

I think Eldariel's sort of right on here. White offers fantastic answers to problems in ways goblins can't capitalize on. White just flat out doesn't offer you any good Goblins (And while I'm aware Crib Swap exists, it's just awful.) Black and Green both offer you a Goblin card each, both a fantastic one. Warren Weirding isn't as good as Swords to Plowshares in a vacuum, but in Goblins it shines, as it gets picked up by Matron/Ringleader. Tin-Street not only nets you a permanent while often picking off a troubling Chalice/Needle/Painter/Equipment/Mox/Whatever, it gets picked up by Matron/Ringleader. These are two fantastic cards that synergize with the deck and blow away every other splash card in comparison.

As such, White doesn't offer you anything that another color can't in some way. Removal can be handled by Black or just straight Red (The Goblins work a lot better when Relic of Progenitus is backing them up). Artifact/Enchantment removal can be handled by Green or even Black if you rely on Discard/Needle. Combo hate can be handled by artifacts or Black. White might be able to do all of these in one splash, but it isn't doing any of them amazingly well.

[Mantis]

What do you bring in Needle for? I have never run it and never found the need to sideboard it in actually.

[Tacosnape]

What do you bring in Needle for? I have never run it and never found the need to sideboard it in actually.

That's because you don't run it. Therefore you aren't looking for the uses. Pithing Needle's also a very high skill level card to be able to predict its uses and when to board it in.

1. Needle stopsSword of Fire and Ice (And less important, Light and Shadow), which will help some against Faerie Stompy, though far less than Tin-Street Hooligan would. It will replace Mogg Fanatic, who does little in this match.

2. Needle stops Pernicious Deed or Factory or Monestary or a cycling Decree of Justice against Landstill. It will replace some of your Weirdings/Gempalms. Oh, and, if your entire life goal is to keep your opponent off Humility, Needle also hits fetchlands pre-emptively.

3. Needle stops Arc-Slogger and Umezawa's Jitte against Dragon Stompy. It also stops Jitte in any other deck that runs it.

4. Needle stops Survival of the Fittest. Like, seriously? No other card does this better. Survival's most common method of removing Needles cost 5 (Wickerbough/Activate) or 4 (Burning Wish/Gleeful Sabotage), and that's tempo they're not going to have against you very often.

5. Pithing Needle stops random combo pieces, like Goblin Charbelcher or Grindstone (Yes, okay, some of them will annoyingly drop a Painter and Pyroblast your Needle, but it's still something.)

6. It stops Vedalken Shackles against MUC, meaning they can't get the absurdly annoying Shackles/Propaganda combo going against you as easily.

7. It stops either Seismic Assault or the cycling lands against Aggro Loam.

8. It's decent against Affinity, too.

All this said, I don't run Needle if I splash Green unless I'm operating under the "Abandon my storm combo matchup entirely" theory (Which I still think is Goblins' best plan), and for some reason I want Grip, Needle, and Tin-Street all at my disposal. RB Goblins, however, can definitely exploit Needle.

In short, Needle is fantastic against Landstill and Survival, will give you fighting chances against Stompy decks packing equipment if you have a way to deal with Chalice for 1, and often shines in unexpected matchups or against random combo matchups.

[BKclassic]

Sensei's Divining Top seems like a good Needle target, too.