I don't play blue, never have, probally never will. I made the decision that choke is a back breaker not from the pretty picture, but from my opponents reaction to it. To me it is a dead turn, but that's fine cuz homeboy across the table just shat on himself. Effectively choke can shut down counterbalance cuz they can't spin top and ruin your day.
I am really happy with my MD list, I do feel that I have 3 open spots with the 2 grunt and lone skyshroud. I just don't know what will/can go there. I have thought about the susher route and I looked at crusher at my local card shop and pondered for a moment. Neither seems like "the" card to me.
Also, get off my back about my board yo! That sideboard is for decks that I have been seeing alot of in my local tournaments. How about you come over to where we play with that SB and that deck from '07 and see how you do? I ain't trying to bust your balls, but it sure seemed like you were busting mine. Just from the last tournament that I played in I saw 2 combo decks (one black and one blue), dreadnought, and a berserker deck. The only reason I beat the blue deck was cause of choke. The only reason I beat the nought deck was choke. I sensed a pattern so I stuck with it. My Sb will change from tournament to tournament too. Krosan grip hangs out right next to pyroclasm and is always ondeck. Everything we do is to beat opponents, so why play a card in SB that will not be threatening for your opponents?
I once thought as you did, more speed and damage, then I decided I like to win, so I started to round out the deck. I added bigger creatures(tarm, thoctar, and the new catl), utility in jitte (over the previous rancor), back breakers like choke and PoP, removal like StP. I love rancor and I think that it MAY still have a place in the deck, but like I said, I an uncertain about only 3 cards in the main.
I think that the deck has to play 4 plow (is dreadnought g1 an auto loss?) how about monastary and tombstalker, you always have 2 bolts in hand? 3/4 PoP should also be included as a "secret weapon". I really like the addition of the 5/4 thoctar and I feel that he is an auto 4. With Tarmogoyf and Thoctar we effectively have 8 threats that must be dealt with within 1-2 turns or be placed at a serious disadvantage with the 8 lightning effects we run.
As we all know the point of the deck is to play more creatures than the opponent, burn theirs out of the way, and swing in. Hopefully this happens quicker than the opponent can recover from. If you have a different game plan, to me, that is not zoo. If your plan is to chip away for 5 or so damage and then burn them out, that sounds an awful lot like sligh to me.
On an ending note can anyone tell me why mogg fanatic is included in this deck? Am I missing some vital knowledge about this card?
I threw together a Zoo list yesterday because I saw this thread and I really enjoy it. Super fast and has been doing well against most things. Thought I would share my list.
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
4 Plateau
2 Savannah
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Shyshroud Elite
2 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Watchwolf
4 Woolly Thoctor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Rancor
SB
4 Orim's Chant
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroclasm
(I forgot what I had as a 3 of)
I totally forgot Helix existed when I was making this but now that I look at it, I wouldn't know what to cut. The thing that I love most is that all my creatures survive clasm from the board which makes it so strong against Goblins and Elves. I played a couple quick games against Gobs and won both. One pre and one side. Burned and sworded everything and then dropped a Thoctor and Rancor. Game 2 was one sided. Clasm won the game when I had a Nactl and Wolf out.
I then tried to play against TES. Game one = no chance but I felt okay about game 2 since I had burn for ADN and Chant and teeg to slow down. I lost the game but it was close. I drew a hand of Chant, burn, 2 land, and the rest creatures (no teeg) but I couldnt draw any other disruption and died with him at around 5 or 6.
So I liked this deck and it was so much fun to play. I want to test a CB deck like ITF or Thresh soon. 4 Grips should help.
Also, since this is something different, I feel it deserves its own post.
I got this temptation to play Naya Charm. I don't think it is that horrible, but could be quite good. Clear a blocker, send 3 to the dome, get back a Goyf, or tap down those Goyfs/goblins/merfolk/slivers/elves/geese FTW. I just tried it as a 2 of and it won me the game. Well sort of... I had 4 Goyfs out and I tapped down 4 Goblin tokens to attack and win. It didn't pull me out of a losing position or anything, but you never know what goblins can do with one turn...
Yeah I was bustin your balls a little but seriously, nice come back. Honestly I'm glad to have discussion going again, regardless of how much of a rant I had to lay out. RGW zoo is fun and is competitive enough to be talked about. Keep your board any way you want bro, but Choke is ass...imo..sheesh.Originally Posted by Kird Ape
ouchHell no game one isn't an auto loss. I'm from Detroit where only the Lions are an auto loss. 2 bolts in hand? Look at my list again, there are 15 in the deck. By turn three I should have 2 or 3, and I really want to be aiming them at my opponents dome beacuse my early critters have outclassed theirs and by the time they land something big I'm ready to go have a victory smoke.
Yeah, you have to hope when you insist on using StP to remove their fat. You'd better have landed a tarm or a thoctar if you intend on keeping the heat up. The only fat I want StP for is Doran.
Sweet, now I have to start a thread called RGW Sligh 'cause I run 1 less critter than you do and I aim to end the game with some speed. No thanks. I'd rather argue in here until you convince me or I convince you...or someone starts putting up actual results a tourneys.
Mogg Fantastic really helps me not lose to Ichorid Combo by removing Bridges.
Not that I'm arguing FOR fanatic's place in zoo, (IMO grim is the better creature for the slot, despite the slight dys-synergy with goyf- he is often good for 4-6 damage for 3-4 mana throughout the game, and helps your bolts kill goyfs dead [controlling the size of goyfs can actually help here]) but fanatic also kills bobs and equip-on the stack pestermites/clouds, and two-for ones goblins or trades with chief while keeping lackies at bay. Definatly a meta call, but if ichorid and bob-packing decks are prevelant (or mother of runes in an under-developed meta) it may be warrented MB.
BTW, this thread has enlightened me that wolley thoctar is actually a 5/4, as opposed to the 5/3 he was originally spoiled as. Being in Iraq and not able to physicly handle/play with cards is weak. Hard weak. IMO both he and swords should be auto-ins in a zoo deck.
I just took this list to a top 4 split at my local tournament out of 23 people:
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactyl
4x Watchwolf
2x Figure of Destiny
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
Sideboard
3x Pithing Needle
3x Pyroclasm
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Ancient Grudge
3x Gaddock Teeg
Here is a very short summary of my matchups:
Round 1: Aggro Loam (2-1). I won the first game because he wasn't able to keep up. Second game was lost after a Chalice @ 1 and 2 backed up by Seismic Assault. Game 3 he mulls to 4 and he can't keep up with the pure speed of my draw.
Round 2: Affinity w/ Goyf (2-0). The first game was easy, he kept a hand with Thoughtseize in it and never drew his second land; I killed him on turn 4 with Nactyl, Wolf, and burn! Second game was sick, Ancient Grudge > Affinity. I bolted his Ravager and then Grudged his only threats and was able to stabilize at 6 life while double Goyy, Ape, and Nactyl win it in a decisive manner!
Round 3: Eva Green (2-1). First game I go all in and fetch duals because my hand is sick and he can't kill my lands fast enough to stop Kird Ape with Jitte. Game 2 I get rocked in the face by land destruction and lose fast to Tombstalkers and Goyfs. Game 3 was very close but I was able to position myself for the win carefully fighting through 3x Goyfs and 2x Tombstalkers plus some random dudes. I got my combo going late game and he can't keep up with Figure of Destiny + Jitte (creature + Jitte is a SICK combo)!
Round 4: Goyf Sligh (2-0). This matchup is amazingly easy. Zoo creatures are just better than Goyf Sligh and their only viable threat it Tarmogoyf who just goes farming. I win 2 games very quickly after continuously 2-1ing with his burn + creatures for one of my creatures. Fetching basics is key here and Lightning Helix is a pro!
Top 8
Roud 5: Goyf Sligh (2-0). More of the same except in game 2 I drew a ton of lands and was able to combo him out VIA Kird Ape + Jitte. I don't think Pyroclasm should be sideboarded in in this matchup as it usually just kills 1-2 creatures and has no relevance when Goyfs are in play (usually).
Figure of Destiny was phenomenal and sucked at the same time. I would have won game 2 against Aggro Loam had the Figure of Destiny I drew been Goblin Legionnairre, he had a Chalice @ 1 in play and was at 2 life! But against Eva Green he won a matchup because I was able to make him a 4/4 with counters already on Jitte and he was unable to gangbang Figure with his Goyf and Hippie to kill it (where as with the Legionnairre it would have traded with both) and this allowed me to build counters on Jitte and win in a few short swings. I think maybe a 1/1 split of the creatures would be a good call. I don't like 2x Figure of Destiny since it is to mana intensive in the early game but it is REALLY good in the late game. The same with Goblin Legionnairre, it is also semi-mana intensive but it is a creature AND burn or in very rare situations it may save a Goyf or something. So I like both and dislike both so I think I will just run 1x of each from now on and see how it works out. I can't think of any other creatures I would like better in those 2x slots.
Grim Lavamancer is justa pitiful 1/1 and dies to everything. Scroll fills this role a LOT better than Lavamancer does so I don't run it.
Mogg Fanatic should be played in a Dredge heavy meta, thats about it. Mogg Fanatic sucks when drawn later on since all of our creatures are 2/3 or greater. He is versatile but not right at all for Zoo, especially when u are going super aggro and need that third 3/3 beater for the win!
I like Jotun Grunt but he has been in my opening hand so much that I don't run it anymore. I only ran 2 but it seemed like everytime I had one it was in my opening hand and it generally hits once, if that and we already have good enough creatures for the late game so he is not really needed.
As far as Horizon Canopy, I LOVE running 1 but I would not play anymore since it creates serious negative synergy between Kird Ape and Nactyl and makes Wasteland even more potentially harmful to the deck.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Nice job Pulp. Looks like you had some nice pairings, i.e., no combo. In a meta like yours, I'd cut Fanatic too. I have 3 different players who regularly pilot Ichorid Combo, so Fanatic is in the main still.
What makes you say that? Scroll was in my list years ago due to the popularity of Angel Stompy at the time. The pro red creatures required the less efficient Scroll for removal (I didn't run StP then either). Now that no one plays pro red stuff anymore, I'd rather just use Grim Lavamancer because it's cheaper. Aside from that Scroll can't chump a goyf and send 2 to the face at the same time.
The underlaying topic of debate, it would seem, is it better to be rounded or one-sided? Do we sacrifice the thoctar, jitte, and removal (plow) for speed? Is grim/isamaru/fanatic, rancor, and more burn better? I know in my meta I see deed, plow, bolt in the majority of matchups. Using rancor is pimp and he used to be in my deck, but not as much utility as jitte. There is also the bolt/plow in response to casting rancor. Having a bunch of guys running around that CC 1 is bad cuz they can deed them all away and still keep their tarm. This can happen turn 4 in every deck that I come accross, that runs deed. I don't think that more burn is bad, just that's it's one sided. I have never liked to "cheese" people out, but it is effective to a point.
I have played magic for over ten years and my original group had 2 burn players. The first mixed goblins (piledriver, lackey, mogg maniac) with the burn spells (bolt, chain, incinerate, fireblast) very quick and deadly. Every tournament the deck never went better than 2-2. The other was R/G with all the burn and dryad. It too was quick and powerful, but never did well in tournament play. Around the same time I combined a white weenie deck that played scroll and bolt with a R/g burn deck (kird ape/skyshroud/river boa) to come up with what I was later told by people more versed in internet magic to be zoo. I had great success playing an aggressive, but rounded deck with plow/disenchant/balance in the main.
Old habits are hard to break, so I ask is it more effective to run smaller critters and more burn (for me 3 Pop, 8 bolts, 3/4 incinerate/helix) or be rounded enough to take out a second turn dreadnought/tombstalker? I think in either case the opponent would rather have his creature than the life. I suppose I could go hunt down some Legacy players and test relentlessly if there weren't just 3 of us in the area. That said anyone reading this thread from the Fredericksburg area feel free to PM and test.
The answer to this is all preference. I think that if you want to win with weenie creatures and burn play Goyf Sligh. I choose to play Zoo because of how resiliant it is and unreliant on burn to win games. Your creatures are better than burn and just as fast and effective (usually unless vs Shackles but thats what the SB is for). Jitte, Cursed Scroll, StP, and Lightning Helix provide the utility I love to merit playing Zoo. The fact that it really can deal with a 12/12 on turn 2 instead of hoping to just race it is a serious factor in choosing to play a deck like this. Also the interaction with the opponent, Goyf Sligh has almost no interaction its just burn to the face and attack with Goyf while Zoo actually feels like playing a "real" deck (cause burn does not count as a real deck) that does stuff and plays bad ass creatures. As far as speed of burn, I would say Zoo is every bit as fast as Goyf Sligh and other burn decks only its better cause you have StP and Lightning Helix which are phenomenal against them. Its a lot like the Rancor argument, I think Rancor is garbage in the deck because late game when you are trying to draw threats you don't want to be drawing Rancors and when I do cast them on a creature it is usually sent farming or burned out but some think it is crucial to the deck.
@umbowta: I prefer scroll cause it isn't a creature. I never have problems with opposing Goyfs (unless mana flooded) and never really felt the need to have Grim Lavamancer. Cursed Scroll is a serious threat that can not go farming and is a near auto-win vs Goblins assuming you have 3 mana as well as being fantastic in breaking Goyf stalls and sqeaking in that last damage against Thresh or something.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
What have you been sideboarding vs r/g Aggro Loam?
My current board:
4 Krosan Grip
2 Anchient Grudge
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Vexing Shusher
3 Engineered Explosives / Pyroclasm
2 Tormonds Crypt
I initially thought Teeg was the way to go to shut off chalice and e.e. but was unhappy with his vulnerability to basically all removal so I've been leaning towards the Grudges and grips. I have problems dealing with all their fat (vores/goyf/crushers) even though I play STP main. PoP seems like it could be a game breaker vs them but its not in my current list... suggestions?
With eight Boros cards already, have you tested Battlegate Mimic?
@ MattH: Its not necessary, and its to conditional. I am very happy with the list as is except I would play 1x Figure of Destiny and 1x Goblin Legionnaire instead of 2x Figures.
@mmmetaphor: Against Loam I SB like this -2 Cursed Scroll, -2 Figure of Destiny/Goblin, -1 Isamaru, -1 Thoctar and put in +3 Ancient Grudge, +3 Pithing Needle. Needle is so important in shutting off Seismic Assault, Wasteland, EE etc. Teeg sucks against them as he is just a bear and nullifies 2 cards in their deck. I have never really had a serious problem with CotV after SB. Ancient Grudge is just a fantastic card.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I borrowed Pulp Fiction's Zoo deck from him tonight, and split top 4 in a 25 man tourney.
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactyl
4x Watchwolf
2x Goblin Legionaire
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
Sideboard
3x Pithing Needle
3x Pyroclasm
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Ancient Grudge
3x Gaddock Teeg
Tourney Report:
Round one against Mr. Pulp Fiction himself with Eternal garden. He got Exploration with Crucible and proceeded to Ghost Quarter and Wasteland me out of lands... bother games. 0-2 loss
Round two against mono red Goblins. He gets two vials and 2 seige gangs and i still win through them both due to me drawing almost all my removal. Game two boarded in 3 pyroclasm and took out 2xGoblin Legionnaire, 1xWoolly Thoctar. Rape 2-0 win
Round three against RBG Goblins. Game 1 i turn 4 him with double Wild Nactyl, Kird Ape, and Goyf. Game 2 he Ports some of my lands until i stick a Jitte and go to town. I pyroclasm like 8 goblins. 2-0 win
Round four against Goyf Sligh. Too freaking easy. Jitte sticks and the kid i'm playing against thinks im an auto-win, so he plays with his hand revealed all cocky-like. I rape him hard 2-0 win.
Top 8:
Mono Blue Control:
Game one i just race him, and beat him through 4xStandstill. He draws nothing relevant and i send his Mishra's Factory farming 3 times. Game two i get him down to 1 and he finally takes control with Countertop, Patron Wizard, Sower of Temptation, and Back to Basicszzzz. Game three i curve like a champ with turn 1 Cursed Scroll, turn 2 Goyf, turn three Jitte, with all basics and him not playing a spell. 2-1 win.
Special thanx to Pulp for letting me borrow his deck.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
No problem, I'm glad you made top 4 with it! What did you think about the Goblin Legionnaire VS Figure of Destiny argument? Would you have preferred a 1/1 split or did it seem to not matter? Would Cursed Scroll be better as something else or did it work just fine? And the SB, did it ever seem lacking? Any suggestions?
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
I just never wanted to cast Goblin Legionnaire until i had 5 or more mana out. I wanted to spend it on like Watchwolfs and Goyfs and burn. I think FoD would have worked out great, but it's just WAY to mana intensive. You want to be burning, equipping jitte, or curse scrolling. So my suggestion for that spot is prolly just like another vanilla 3/3 or something like that.
And as far as the sideboard goes, it was great. Pyroclasm came in almost every round. I understand why your sideboard the way it is for our random meta. And Pithing Needle is just a house against some decks. Idk about Ancient Grudge though, it has the ability to 2for1, but in some blue matchups you just need the "uncounterable" aspect of Krosan Grip. It's iffy though bc i'm a fan of Ancient Grudge too.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
I was also thinking about some possibly zoo worthy creatures, and i came up with a list.
Knight of the Holy Nimbus-2 white mana makes it iffy, but other abilities are nuts.
Scab Clan Mauler-essentially a 3/3 trampler for 2, also conditional bc u have to do damage.
Mogg Fanatic-discussed earlier in this thread, ok in a Dredge Meta.
Hell's Thunder-you all will probably call me retarded for this, but i thinks it's good on it's own and it unearths late game when u are topdecking land. ok. belongs in burn decks if anything
Blade of the Sixth Pride-3/1 for 2cc. Has a shitty ass end.
This is all just theoretical of course.
Thoughts?
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Ethersworn Canonist is pretty a pretty good candidate for the SB vs. Combo.
Men yet not comprehending their stick in the scheme of the prey-on-prey ballet of ending day
My eBay Auctions (art alterations! I FIXED THE LINK) - http://shop.ebay.com/yawg07/m.html
Teeg is better, it cut's off Engineered Explosives shenanigans which everyone in my meta runs. And it hoses combo too.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
He really doesn't do much against fetchland tendrils, but I guess FT is not a power house in everyone's meta. Teeg also is not an artifact (can't be hit by Krosan Grip, Shattering Spree and the like) and stops Force of Will too (decks with EE usually run FoW too). The downside is that it's a Legend.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
What about ~2 Rancor in Zoo? And is Isamaru really better than Mogg Fanatic or Grim Lavamancer? Lavamancer also seems superior to Goblin Legionaire.
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