How bad is white?

[Mayk0l]

Ancestral is abviously better because the white one is easily countered by Spell Snare. Also, drawing 5 cards is likely to make you discard and deck yourself more often.

Lol
Yes, and Necropotence sucks too, because it makes you discard down to seven. And that sucks.. having to discard down to seven. At the end of turn if you've got nine in your grip, you're handing out free Esper Charms!
That sucks. Couldn't agree more.


On the Ancestral discussion. I don't get it. You're thinking of one of blue's most powerful, most befittingly blue abilities, on a potential white card. Of course it's worse in white than in blue. White creatures are better than blue creatures. Blue doesn't get Serra Avengers

[Tosh]

Blue doesn't get Serra Avengers

You're right... Blue just gets Morphling.

[Nydaeli]

WW for draw 5 wouldn't put white back on the radar as a playable color, it would just cause a few decks to splash a little into white (or splash more into white, if it already had some)

No, it would cause basically every deck to splash white for four copies. The proposed card is stupid broken and a terrible example for a general discussion of white's merits.

There are basically three classes of decks that use White:
1) Control decks that run a heavy white component. (UWx Landstill, Armageddon Stax, Quinn)
2) Control and aggro-control decks that run a small white splash for STP. (Threshold, The Rock, It's the Fear)
3) Combo decks that run a small white splash for Chant. (TES, FT, ANT)

2) and 3) are pretty much anomalous - they're solely due to the handful of broken cards that White has received over the years. 1) pretty much proves that white is a viable color outside of these few cards, however.

[Shugyosha]

While I agree to a sense the same can be said for A) because B) doesn't even exist. Clearly hypothetical statements are far above you.

Its called subtle criticism. Clearly...

its a flawed statement. Both cards are/would be banned in Legacy so they would have no impact and white is not the color to draw cards. The white card also costs one colored mana more and has a worse cards to mana ratio.

[cloudstrife7]

This is what I think also. White weenie plus control will be a very strong deck when it becomes feasible. It's not there just yet but with the creatures they are printing in white lately it's chances are gettng better and better.

I want so badly to agree with this. There are so many white fish-weenie creatures that I love: True believer, Samurai of the pale curtain, Knight of the white orchid, Ethersworn Canonist, Glowrider, Jotun Grunt, Serra avenger, spectral lynx, knight of meadowgrain, knight of the holy nimbus... it goes on forever.
The problem is that all of these creatures are at this magical power level where they are good enough to be support cards in a solid deck, but not good enough to carry one. You stick them all together and you get something that can hang around for a while in loads of given matchups, but its like playing affinity when you don't draw ravager, or any aggro deck when you don't draw Goyf, you need something just one tiny notch higher in power level, and it never quite materializes. I feel that wizards has a power level sweet spot for a signature white weenie to define a standard archetype, and they aren't planning on exceeding it.

[brattin]

No, it would cause basically every deck to splash white for four copies.

I'm not sure I agree. It is clearly broken, but I think there would still be good decks that didn't run it. I think a lot more decks would like to be able to run A.R.. Also, the question isn't "would you play this card"--it's "which card would you rather play".

The proposed card is stupid broken and a terrible example for a general discussion of white's merits.

Yeah, I guess I named the thread inappropriately. White isn't bad just because my broken card isn't as broken as A.R. It's pretty good as a splash in a bunch of decks, and as a major color in a few. I just think it's weird that the color of the card has SUCH an impact on making it not good.

I think an instant that cost UU and drew 5 would be better than A.R., but because WW makes you splash white so heavily, it isn't worth it.

There are basically three classes of decks that use White:
1) Control decks that run a heavy white component. (UWx Landstill, Armageddon Stax, Quinn)
2) Control and aggro-control decks that run a small white splash for STP. (Threshold, The Rock, It's the Fear)
3) Combo decks that run a small white splash for Chant. (TES, FT, ANT)

2) and 3) are pretty much anomalous - they're solely due to the handful of broken cards that White has received over the years. 1) pretty much proves that white is a viable color outside of these few cards, however.

Of these decks, the heavy-white ones would play the white card. I think Thresh (and the plethora of thresh-like decks) and ITF would rather play A.R.. Combo decks would probably rather play the white card.

On a different topic, I don't understand why so many people are asking if I'm high. Are you saying that the white card is obviously better, or that my question is stupid?

Thanks for all the responses!

[frogboy]

It is clearly broken, but I think there would still be good decks that didn't run it.

This is pretty much incorrect. This card is Tidings +1 for two. Have you ever actually resolved a Tidings? Do you know how hard it is to lose at that point?

Are you saying that the white card is obviously better

It's not even close.

I mean, yeah, it'll make random white decks better, but since pretty much every single deck would be playing four, those white decks aren't going to get better relative to the decks that people are playing now.

[Artowis]

I think an instant that cost UU and drew 5 would be better than A.R., but because WW makes you splash white so heavily, it isn't worth it.

You play in a format with Fetchlands and Duals. Do you realize how ridiculous a mana cost would have to be for it to be legitimately hard to splash? Well obviously you don't, so let's say you'd have to put on the drawback of 'Can only be cast off Basic Plains' for it to be a heavy splash.

But I mean WW - draw 5. The game is pretty much over if that resolves I've won a number of games against resolved Ancestral Recall before. Twice in the same game... much less so.

[Clark Kant]

I was under the impression that red is now the worst color in magic.

Yes, red has goblins, burn and REBs.

But both goblins and burn fell by the wayside thanks to stuff like Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnought.

And REBs aren't really maindeckable.

Atleast white has StP, Oblivion Ring and a crapload of silver bullets like Moat, Humility, Armageddon and Wrath of God.

There's a reason why most landstill, thresh and dreadstill builds splash white before they would even consider splashing red.

[Forbiddian]

I like how Red has always been known as "That color with the Red Elemental Blasts." There's enough blue in Magic that Red is actually decent largely on the back of REB. You guys remember Keeper back in like the '90s splashed Red for REBs and like Fire/Ice?

Clark, you missed Blood Moon, though, which is very strong.


I think that Red and White are both pretty bad, just everyone is used to Red being shitty and it's only fairly recently that white's power eroded. Back just a few years, UW Landstill was the face of Legacy. Tarmogoyf and Thoughtseize especially since then have made white look bad, but it's nowhere near bad enough that WW Draw 5 would be worse than Ancestral Recall.

As broken as Recall is, there's no way it's even a contest. Drawing 5 just puts the game away in a way that Ancestral Recall couldn't fathom. Recall is overpowered, but it doesn't let you literally piss cards away at a 1:2 ratio for the rest of the game just because you resolved it.

Two Ancestral Recalls = +4 Card Advantage.
1 WW Draw 5 = +4 Card Advantage.

The bottom line is that Misdirection would be a 4-of if they unbanned Recall or printed that ridiculous White card.

[frogboy]

UW Landstill was only really good because the blue cards decided to roll up with the white removal. The only really uniquely powerful white card that is played for it's own sake rather than as a removal or other general utility spell (i.e. random bears) is Decree of Justice.

[Clark Kant]

Yes pretty much every list would have to go...

4 FoW
4 Divert
4 Misdirection
4 Ancestral Recall
4 White Card

Half the deck space would go towards either resolving your Recall or preventing your opponent from resolving it.

[Forbiddian]

UW Landstill was only really good because the blue cards decided to roll up with the white removal. The only really uniquely powerful white card that is played for it's own sake rather than as a removal or other general utility spell (i.e. random bears) is Decree of Justice.

Interesting outlook. Maybe it's just cause I remember back to the days when Swords to Plowshares owned Fat Motis, but I think that Landstill would not have been effective without Swords.

Goblins was really prevalent back then (and Suicide Black saw some play). Cards like Terror, Snuff Out, Innocent Blood, or Pernicious Deed would not have kept the landstill archetype afloat after the banning of Mana Drain. Even after Naturalize got printed, which did a lot to balance the color wheel, I still didn't see any splash other than white to be a serious option.

I totally agree that Landstill was BLUE/white (and that's being generous toward the white), but Swords was definitely at the heart of the deck, and I don't think anything printed at the time would have been able to fit the role of getting back to board parity in time to resolve a Standstill.


But anyway, now White is probably the weakest card in Magic. Ironically the superior creatures have made control less reliant on great creature removal and more reliant on playing fatasses themselves.

[freakish777]

If both were legal, I'm fairly positive the decks with 4 ARs would win consistently over the decks with the 4 white cards (assuming you somehow had to actually choose, which you very well might with how fast the format would become). It doesn't really have to do with colors, it has to do with coming down on turn 1 vs turn 2.

The format would become

Combo:

4 AR
3 AdN
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Brainstorm
4 Duress
etc


Aggro:

4 FoW
4 AR
4 Misdirection
4 Daze
4 Goyf
4 Duress (to avoid Seizing yourself in the mirror)
4 Brainstorm
etc


Control:

4 FoW
4 Misdirection
4 Counterspell
4 Duress
4 AR
4 draw 5
4 StP
3 DoJ
etc

You may not have time to cast a card that cost in this hypothetical format as combo would be insane, and aggro/aggro control would be very difficult for the true control decks to beat.

The question to pose to your roommate is:

Which is better, Force Spike or Mana Tithe? Which is better, Disenchant or Naturalize? Which is better, Funeral Charm or Piracy Charm? Which is better, Stone Rain or Ice Storm? Which is better, Ancestral Recall or a white instant for :W: that says target player draws 3 cards (here it's clear you'd play both, but if you were restricted to "You may play the blue or the white but not both" then you'd likely answer "I'll play the blue one")? Etc, etc.

[frogboy]

f both were legal, I'm fairly positive the decks with 4 ARs would win consistently over the decks with the 4 white cards

This is irrelevant because decks would just play all eight.

[freakish777]

This is irrelevant because decks would just play all eight.

I disagree. The combo decks and aggro decks would want to actually play business spells at 2 mana (Goyf and Tutors for Tendrils) instead of more card drawing. I could see 4 AR and 2 or 3 of the white card in aggro and combo decks but not all 8. At some point you actually want to just kill the opponent instead of drawing more cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Drawing five cards isn't business to you?

You guys are terrible. Either card is broken in half. Manabases would bend over to play either. It's well worth putting yourself in Wasteland sight hairs to draw five fucking cards for two mana. Hell, that's an Impulse with double cheating measures attached, sans the game loss! Good times.

It doesn't matter since neither has a snowball's chance in Hell of being printed.

Also, regarding the color red, funnily enough the most played color in Legacy until the rise of Tarmogoyf and the printing of Thoughtseize/Ponder. Not just for Goblins, either; CRET Belcher, Loam, Survival, Zoo, Sligh and Dragon Stompy all had some amount of popularity. The format seems to have taken a sharp blue turn again, though.

[chokin]

If there was a card that was UU, Draw 5, that'd be nuts. WW not so much, since as others have said, white's a great splash, but as a main color, it just feels so bleh. I'm not saying it doesn't have the possibility of being great though. Hell, even a UU Draw 4 or 1UU Draw 4 would be awesome with no drawbacks.

How good would the card be as: RR? BB? GG?

I think burn decks would cream themselves if it was RR: Draw5. Black based combo would be everywhere. I could see some green players using the GG version especially if they ran like a Elf Staff combo.

[FoolofaTook]

I want so badly to agree with this. There are so many white fish-weenie creatures that I love: True believer, Samurai of the pale curtain, Knight of the white orchid, Ethersworn Canonist, Glowrider, Jotun Grunt, Serra avenger, spectral lynx, knight of meadowgrain, knight of the holy nimbus... it goes on forever.
The problem is that all of these creatures are at this magical power level where they are good enough to be support cards in a solid deck, but not good enough to carry one. You stick them all together and you get something that can hang around for a while in loads of given matchups, but its like playing affinity when you don't draw ravager, or any aggro deck when you don't draw Goyf, you need something just one tiny notch higher in power level, and it never quite materializes. I feel that wizards has a power level sweet spot for a signature white weenie to define a standard archetype, and they aren't planning on exceeding it.

It's going to be something simple, like a WW1 creature that's a 1/1 that lets you go get any white creature in your deck with a casting cost of two or less and put it in your hand, as a comes into play effect.

Tarmogoyf helped green become respectable, but mainly as a splash color. Survival of the Fittest, on the other hand, makes a deck with a fair amount of green in it pretty scary.

What white is missing is reasonable card advantage and selection. Sooner or later there's going to be a rough equivalent of Goblin Matron to fix that some.

[Hummingbird TG]

You need Engineered Explosives for tokens and Counterbalance. Sensei's Divining Top is an interesting question, especially playing 8-10 fetches and just 3 Scrublands and a basic swamp as the black mana, there could be a lot of opportunity to search there. This, BTW, with the addition of Dark Confidant is starting to lean over the dangerous edge of being a full two color instead of splashing black into a white weenie shell. 15 black spells starts looking like a weaker version of Sui Black, even though the white count is a lot higher.

Maybe this:

4x Figure of Destiny
4x Savannah Lions
4x Dark Confidant
3x Jotun Grunt
2x Serra Avenger

2x Ajani Goldmane/Elspeth Knight-Errant
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Sensei's Divining Top

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
2x Engineered Explosives

4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal therapy

4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
3x Polluted Delta

3x Scrubland
1x Swamp
5x Plains

Is missing Exalted Angel. Seriously. If you're going to run 4ccs (which are already bad since they force you to run more mana, why not run the best?) Besides, you'll never cast a 4cc with 18 lands and no cantrips. 4 Tops are also too much.