[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

[Resist_Temptation]

On the topic of burn. I had one cop red in my board just in case. I did have an enightened tutor in the main and also one in the side via 2 wishes. it works alright.

[Nydaeli]

If you have a serious problem with burn decks, you're probably better off playing Counterbalance in the board. You'd need 2-3 Tops in the main to support it, but it's far less narrow. (To the point where you'd be boarding it in for 75% of your matches, I'd suspect.)

[konsultant]

The lack of Wastelands was not a mistake. I wanted plenty of basics, and for Brainstorm to be optimal there has to be enough fetches. Add in the need for Mishra's to make Standstill good and you don't really have room for Wastes. I could probably put in 2, but that doesn't seem worth it.

Unless you are also playing Stifle and or Vindicate you really aren't going to disrupt much with just 4 Wastes, and it also sets you back a land. Crucible obviously changes this, but I didn't want to waste a slot on that too. If you are going to play the control game, then why would you want Wasteland? Sure it slows them down and possibly cuts them off of a color, but if that is your goal then just play Canadian Thresh/ Team America.

I used to play 4 Wastes in every Landstill build I tested, but cut it a while ago and haven't looked back since. It really doesn't fit the strategy well enough to add 4 colorless sources to a deck that wants to hit W and U on turn 1, UU on turn 2, and WW on turn 4. That gives you turn 3 to waste without actually messing up your plan too much, and at that point it's not as effective.

Upping the basic count also lessens your opponents ability to stop your development through waste lock and/or back to basics. Less non-basics is also important in the burn matchup, something I actually need to look into more because I think I want some life gain MD.

I don't think you can effectively win tournaments without either Wasteland or Dustbowl. Running Vindicate's may make it easier to get away without Watelands some of the time but not in every situation.

Primary reason you have to run Wasteland: You must be able to win the game under Standstill reliably based not just on what is in play at the time you cast Standstill but you need to expect to be able to not lose board advantage to your opponent while Standstill is in play. Meaning if you play against Dreadstill that runs Waste and Factory you are more or less cutting off your own draw engine because it will almost never be safe to play Standstill. In my experience this is not a good way to win games.

Secondary reason: Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins are both cards that must be dealt with at times and running Waste can make playing against decks that run them alot easier. Vindicate would work in this situation but burning removal spells on land isn't always an option.

If you want Life Gain run Ajani, i'd take him over Pulse any day in the MD or SB.

@BIGBEAR Looking at your list I noted a couple things, Only one source of Green Mana and you can't even get it with Dragon? I know there were only 2 Grips in the SB but EE requires 3 colors of Mana fairly often. You also seem to have a serious shortage of Disenchant effects, IMHO I would atleast recomend going to 3x EE in the MD and 3x Grip in the SB. Personally when I was running UWG I had 3x EE MD, 2x Grip MD and 2x Grip in the SB and I was quite happy with it.

[mossivo1986]

I don't think you can effectively win tournaments without either Wasteland or Dustbowl. Running Vindicate's may make it easier to get away without Watelands some of the time but not in every situation.

Primary reason you have to run Wasteland: You must be able to win the game under Standstill reliably based not just on what is in play at the time you cast Standstill but you need to expect to be able to not lose board advantage to your opponent while Standstill is in play. Meaning if you play against Dreadstill that runs Waste and Factory you are more or less cutting off your own draw engine because it will almost never be safe to play Standstill. In my experience this is not a good way to win games.

Secondary reason: Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins are both cards that must be dealt with at times and running Waste can make playing against decks that run them alot easier. Vindicate would work in this situation but burning removal spells on land isn't always an option.

If you want Life Gain run Ajani, i'd take him over Pulse any day in the MD or SB.

@BIGBEAR Looking at your list I noted a couple things, Only one source of Green Mana and you can't even get it with Dragon? I know there were only 2 Grips in the SB but EE requires 3 colors of Mana fairly often. You also seem to have a serious shortage of Disenchant effects, IMHO I would atleast recomend going to 3x EE in the MD and 3x Grip in the SB. Personally when I was running UWG I had 3x EE MD, 2x Grip MD and 2x Grip in the SB and I was quite happy with it.

ajani above pulse? Interesting, but is it because pulse contaminates your mana in the burn matchup or is the life gain just that much better? I havent laid an ajani in the burn matchup yet, so id like to know. Let me know!!!

[rockout]

The way I see Ajani being better than Pulse of the Fields is just the initial investment of 4 mana and never having to do anything but gain life until you lose or win. Also, Ajani has a magnet for burn spells. The turn he comes down he has 4 counters and gains a 5th, in response to the 5th counter, your opponent can either: a. Fireblast (sacrificing two mountains and leaving you +2 life -1 card and your opponent down 2 mana sources and a card). b. Multiple burn spells. Either way, you force your opponent to waste burn on something other than your life total. Seems pretty win to me.

Also, once the opponent sees the Pulse of the Field, he'll just play around it by making you cast Pulse of the Field and burning himself/herself (woman play magic right?) so it doesn't return to your hand. Something to that effect.

Either way, I can see Konsultant's point. Hope that helps.

[Illissius]

The turn he comes down he has 4 counters and gains a 5th, in response to the 5th counter, your opponent can either: a. Fireblast (sacrificing two mountains and leaving you +2 life -1 card and your opponent down 2 mana sources and a card). b. Multiple burn spells.

My impression was that the loyalty is a cost while the life is an effect, so if they burn in response the +1 counter will already be there, and you won't have gained the life yet but that's not what they care about. (They can, of course, burn you in response if your life is low enough, and because you can't activate planeswalkers at instant speed this scenario is more than just hypothetical.)

[rockout]

My impression was that the loyalty is a cost while the life is an effect, so if they burn in response the +1 counter will already be there, and you won't have gained the life yet but that's not what they care about. (They can, of course, burn you in response if your life is low enough, and because you can't activate planeswalkers at instant speed this scenario is more than just hypothetical.)

Also, a good point. Sorcery speed makes it not as good. Even if they burn in response to the counter, it's a burn spell not hitting you in the face. Like I said earlier the only burn spell that burn/goyf sligh runs that can take it down in one shot is fireblast. I'll glady trade Ajani for Fireblast + 2 mountains.

[Roman Candle]

Also, a good point. Sorcery speed makes it not as good. Even if they burn in response to the counter, it's a burn spell not hitting you in the face. Like I said earlier the only burn spell that burn/goyf sligh runs that can take it down in one shot is fireblast. I'll glady trade Ajani for Fireblast + 2 mountains.

But don't you have priority when you drop Ajani, so you can add a counter before the opponent can Fireblast it?

[ChiiMagic]

Adding a counter is the cost of the ability. It cannot be responded to. The cost is paid, adding a counter. Then the effect of gaining 2 life will go on the stack and they can respond to it, but not until after your Ajani is safely out of fireblast range.

[mossivo1986]

But that doesn't mean he/she cant price of progress and redirect the damage to your plainswalker, which would be awesome for you anyways! Im just being a wise ass :)

[rockout]

But that doesn't mean he/she cant price of progress and redirect the damage to your plainswalker, which would be awesome for you anyways! Im just being a wise ass :)

That would definitely be awesome.

Yeah, loyalty is a cost and I don't know how to play magic. :-)

[mossivo1986]

So anyways has anyone tested cunning wish versions against ITF?

[rockout]

I tested UWg Landstill with main deck Krosan Grip and was able to go 8-1 against ITF. The ITF Player's ability to play EE @ 4 made games kind of annoying but Decree won me the game almost every time in conjunction with a well timed Krosan Grip on their Deed/EE. If you can stop Intuition sheninigans, then the match stays within acceptable late game brokeness until you can win.

[DuKeLiO]

Cunning Landstill >> ITF (at least on direct confrontation)

With the Cunning-> Extirpate play you can stop the recursion Engine easily. Also Landstill is very able of play with the counterbalance+sensei combo on the table, until you can destroy it or win with a great decree.
My build is 4C, but it the same with UWb cunning builds, really don't matter the Pernicious Deed.

[konsultant]

The way I see Ajani being better than Pulse of the Fields is just the initial investment of 4 mana and never having to do anything but gain life until you lose or win. Also, Ajani has a magnet for burn spells. The turn he comes down he has 4 counters and gains a 5th, in response to the 5th counter, your opponent can either: a. Fireblast (sacrificing two mountains and leaving you +2 life -1 card and your opponent down 2 mana sources and a card). b. Multiple burn spells. Either way, you force your opponent to waste burn on something other than your life total. Seems pretty win to me.

Also, once the opponent sees the Pulse of the Field, he'll just play around it by making you cast Pulse of the Field and burning himself/herself (woman play magic right?) so it doesn't return to your hand. Something to that effect.

Either way, I can see Konsultant's point. Hope that helps.

Nicely put. I have only lost one game ever against burn with Ajani in play and it was because he resolved Sulfuric Vortex and I went 7 turns with out being able to find the third color of Mana in my deck for EE, other than that Ajani is mvp against burn.

Regarding ITF i've found the only way they can beat you is to lock out your removal with Countertop and stick a Goyf early in the game. Once you hit 8 or 9 lands Decree is brutal for thier deck. Extirpate on Tarmogoyf can practically deny that deck of win conditions giving you a ridiculous amount of time to take over the game. They also don't really have any way to deal with Ajani, the Ajani win is probably the easiest way to go. As of yet I haven't lost a round against it and i've played deep6er twice without even knowing the name the deck let alone what it played. This should be a very favorable match for Landstill.

[mossivo1986]

Nicely put. I have only lost one game ever against burn with Ajani in play and it was because he resolved Sulfuric Vortex and I went 7 turns with out being able to find the third color of Mana in my deck for EE, other than that Ajani is mvp against burn.

Regarding ITF i've found the only way they can beat you is to lock out your removal with Countertop and stick a Goyf early in the game. Once you hit 8 or 9 lands Decree is brutal for thier deck. Extirpate on Tarmogoyf can practically deny that deck of win conditions giving you a ridiculous amount of time to take over the game. They also don't really have any way to deal with Ajani, the Ajani win is probably the easiest way to go. As of yet I haven't lost a round against it and i've played deep6er twice without even knowing the name the deck let alone what it played. This should be a very favorable match for Landstill.

The ITF versions ive seen dont run countertop.

Does it not annoy some of you that every single archtype is playing countertop? I mean for some matchups drawing counterbalance second has to mean gg right? I mean theres no real way to get through that for a deck that selectively plays those cards.

[mossivo1986]

I'm wondering if someone can repost the lists for

uwg landstill with maindeck grips instead of wish
and uwb with maindeck vindicates instead of wish
and a countertop model.

I need to do some testing with these models and I can't seem to find them on here.

[TeKo]

http://www.deckcheck.net/visual.php?id=21667
For a Grip list:
- 2 Usea - Scrubland
-2 Vindicate
+ 1-2 Tropical +Savannah
+2Grip

[rsaunder]

Just went 3-2-1 today with a UW humility/wrath build with no countertop. I beat Quinn, Doran Rock, and Elves Combo, losing to Moon Thresh (!) and Team America. I drew with slivers, of all things.

I honestly never wanted countertop and given the weird curve the deck plays with so many 4ccs and EE, I was never afraid of counterbalance. I think running counterbalance effectively requires that you also be vulnerable to opposing counterbalance.

[rockout]

Just went 3-2-1 today with a UW humility/wrath build with no countertop. I beat Quinn, Doran Rock, and Elves Combo, losing to Moon Thresh (!) and Team America. I drew with slivers, of all things.

I honestly never wanted countertop and given the weird curve the deck plays with so many 4ccs and EE, I was never afraid of counterbalance. I think running counterbalance effectively requires that you also be vulnerable to opposing counterbalance.

I agree completely. The main reason I don't run it in my build. However, Sensei's Top is amazing even without CB. If I had room, then I'd definitely be running at least a pair of tops.