I have been running the following build on MWS and it has been smashing face. I either get a [system] player lost on turn 2 or it goes into the later rounds and I out race them. Even when i play against some type of white control (swords, wrath, O rings, etc) I can still pull out a win because they just run out of answers after a 3rd Tombstalker, or a late game Spiritmonger.
-Lands(18)-
Polluted Delta - 4
Flooded Strand - 4
Underground Sea - 4
Tropical Islands - 4
Swamp - 1
Forest - 1
-Creatures(10)-
Tombstalker - 4
Dreadnought - 4
Spiritmonger - 2
-Spells(28)-
Ponder - 4
Daze - 4
Vision Charm - 4
Stifle - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Thoughtseize - 4
Force of Will - 4
-Enchantments(4)-
Pernicious Deed - 4
-Sideboard(15)-
Pithing Needle - 3
Engineered Explosives - 4
Krosan Grips - 4
Tormods Crypt - 4
The Deeds, Spiritmongers, and Sideboard EEs are great for the games where you don't blow up on turn two. Sure this deck is great early game but if you do not finish them off around turn 4 or 5 it tends to "crap out" pretty consistently. Adding in a 3rd threat and some "do over" cards really help the deck to be more rounded. Granted this build is still Dread Stalker but with some Rock tossed in. I either go for the Naught turn two and ride it out or drop the stalker turn two with a third turn deed. Not once have I even thought about popping the deed with a dreadnaught in play.
As for putting Painter/grindstone in as a splash would be bad because one thing that really helps with that deck is when you name red with painter and Hydro/Blue blast everything. Without that backup and/or removal the Painter deck isn't so hot.
Back when I first starting playing this deck I had Counter Top in and I think it was just my play style but I was always making decisions on if I could drop the Counter Top or drop a fatty. It just seamed like you have two different themes that counteract each other in "smash face as fast as you can" and "sit back and control the board while picking away at their life total slowly".
Whywhywhywhywhwyhwywhwywhwywhywhwyhwywhwyhwhwhwyhwywhywhwyhwyhwhywhwyhwyhywhywhywhy would you run Spiritmonger over Tarmogoyf? In a deck that runs 18 lands? In a deck that runs Thoughtseize, Deed, Dreadnought and Vision goddamn Charm? In a format where Swords to Plowshares is the removal spell of choice? In what possible universe would the situations where Spiritmonger outperforms Tarmogoyf be more common than those where the reverse happens?
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
@illisius:
the thing that bother me a lot is that the deck is a bye for all deck running cotv.
trinket help to deal with this problem. For playing the deck since one week on mws (my current metagame:), that was one of my most important issue.
also: the deck doesn't need removals(i'm thinking about snuff out of course). unllike team america, all the beatters are quite unstoppable.the deck needs way to find its kill! I tried first predict, and top. but i'm more satisfy with trinket. also, mws is flooded with survival.deck that recurre stp so fast and so easily, that having an eas access to anti yard at the 1 is cool.
I think that the UBx build can't afford themselves to run 3cc spell (although that one of the main reason to splash...), whereas the UB build has no problem to do that.
tell me if I'm wrong :)
Needing Trinket Mage to deal with Chalice seems a pretty defensible position to me. I can accept that. (Not that you need me to.)
There are, of course, many other ways of dealing with it, but I can't immediately think of any which are obviously superior.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
I never have a problem with CotV because I usually drop EE for 0 and wipe them out when I had them main decked. If I didn't run deed I ran 2 main and 2 sided just for that reason. In a CotV type deck match up I put EE's in for deeds and put in K grips taking out Ponder or Thoughtseizes.
I run Spiritmonger over Goyf because it is good late game and will always bitch slap opposing goyfs. Your early turn plays are either Dreadnought or Stalker. I would much rather drop a late game spiritmonger then late game Goyf. And using swords as a reason not to run him is retarded because your always going to be running against swords regardless of what creature you play. The 18 lands don't matter either because you don't tend to drop monger until at least the 8th or 9th round because he is a "backup" plan in case the game drags out. All that plus I am so sick of Goyf I could puke.
I plan on running the deck from above (or some form of it) in the Chicago GP in march. My question is how different are meta game sideboards over a "vanilla sideboard" like one that would be needed against all kinds of decks. I am currently running this sideboard with a question mark for the EEs. Does much really change in the Vintage meta game or is it pretty universal?
-Sideboard(15)-
Pithing Needle - 4
Engineered Explosives - 3
Krosan Grips - 4
Tormods Crypt - 4
Is there any reason NOT to play 4 Force of Will in this deck.
FoW seems like a nobrainer to be honest, over something like Snuff Out. Yet, some lists don't play it. It slows down combo, the one archeatype faster than Dreadnought. It protects your Dreadnougt from countermagic, bounce and removal. So why not play it?
What? I just went over the last two pages and didn't find a single list without Force in it. If you ever see one of these mythical creations, permission to take extreme measures is hereby granted.
Also, you know what's better than playing Force of Will or Snuff Out? Playing Force of Will AND Snuff Out.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
Lol. The very first list in the very first post doesn't play FoW.
Request have the guy who posted the OP locked and banned, please.
It also has 56 cards in the maindeck. Coincidence?
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
There are no coincidences. I think the 56 cards is just secret tech to increase consistency.
I have been running two Smothers over Snuff Outs because all I see are Goyfs and Bobs. I feel the life loss is too much with running 8 fetch lands and 4 thoughtseizes.
(Hangs his head)
I finally broke down and added 4 goyfs and yes it makes it much better. By the time you drop one the GY removal from Tombstalker doesnt effect it much and it is nice when they kill your first Naught because it usually adds +2/+2 to your gofy and on average I drop them for around 4/5 or 5/6.
Add in the fact that I play Deeds and those bad boys swing for 6 alot of the time. I also took out the vision charms cause they werent as "tech" as I thought.
Granted I don't get out as many turn two Stalkers or naughts anymore but it has a much more solid play style and can go the distance much better.
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [R] Tropical Island
1 [UNH] Forest
1 [UNH] Island
// Creatures
3 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [ON] Smother
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [ON] Smother
Thanks buddy.Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
Lol. The very first list in the very first post doesn't play FoW.
Request have the guy who posted the OP locked and banned, please.
Anyway, I played a tiny tournament today 31 people and I didn't do so well...
I forgot most of the opponents I played and forgot to take my notes with me.
Match 1: Slide
G1: turn 2 Wasteland a Savannah, turn 3 Stifle Nought, wich just wins.
G2: after hurting his manabase for a while he tried to cast Loam( didn't see it game 1) I brainstorm and see I have double FoW backup for Dreadnought. I daze the Loam. Stifle Nought and he tried to plow it 2 times.
Boarding: -3 Thoughtseize, +3 Winter Orb
1-0-0(2-0)
Match 2: Stax Sebas
G1: I start with Island, he goes firt turn Chalice into my Spell Snare. I waste his land and he can't find a double land. A Tombstalker finishes the Job.
G2: I keep a 1-land hand with Ponder. Doesn't find a second land and loose.
G3: He keeps a 7-land hand. I start with Island, He goes Plain. I Brainstorm and play a Swamp. The plain was his only land for 4/5 turns, so he looses horribly to Stalker beats.
-3 Thoughtseize, +1 Rushing River, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Echoing Truth
2-0-0(4-1)
Match 3: Death and Taxes.
G1: Didn't know what to expect from this matchup. Turns out to be nasty. I resolve a Nought with Daze/FoW backup, but looses it after one beat to double Plow and Oblivion Ring. He get Mangara stuff online and I loose.
G2: Don't remember, something like the first matchup.
-3 Thoughtseize, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Rushing River,+1 Wipe Away( Didn't know how to board)
2-1-0(4-3)
Match 4: Goyf Sligh Hidde
G1: When I walk to the table, he has his deck spread over the table and I see Goyf Sligh. I keep a disruption light, but fast hand and I win fast.
G2: I see him boarding in only 2 Tin Street Hooligans( he just puts them faced up on the table) So I keep a hand wich can beat that and does.
-3 Thoughtseize, +3 Red Elemental BLAst
3-1-0(6-3)
Match 5: Goblins Rogier???
G1: He starts with a turn to Piledriver wich I Snare. That is enough information for me to win.
G2: I lock him out of mana but he resolves a Vial. He slowly builds up to 4 counters and wins with 3 Ringleaders and a Wort, while I draw only counters.
G3: This was a pity. He starts slow and it looks I got the winning hand, when he puts down some beats. I Don't think I can make it but we get eachother to five. Than this happens: Opp hand 4 cards including Siege Gang Commander. 2 Vials( 4 and 1), 1 Ringleaders, 1 Piledriver, 1 Matron a Mountain and a Badlands in play. I have 3 cards in hand, 2 mana open an tapped and a untapped Tombstalker. During his upkeep( before counters are added on Vials) I play Vision Charm changing the Mountains to Islands... He draws attacks, I block Piledriver going to 1 and he scoops and I say thanks...
-3 Thoughtseize, +3 Red Elemental Blast
4-1-0(8-4)
Match 5 MUC( with Sowers)
G1: I'm tired and have to play this though matchup. Turn 3 goes like I Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle, He Counterspell, I Force of Will, he Force of Will, I Stifle on Dreadnought, He Force of Will. We draw for a while and I resolve a Tombstalker wich he Sowers and kill me.
G2: I didn't feel like playing the second match, but I still did, I resolve a second turn Winter Orb, and Stifle Nought turn 3, but forgot his Sowers. He plays his fourth Land and beat me silly.
Boarding: Don't know, something like -1 Ponder, -1 Phyrexian Dreadnought, -1 Vision Charm, -3 Predict, + 3 Dark Confidant, +3 Winter Orb
4-2-0(8-6)
I miss top 4( we played a round more swiss than normal) and end 7th.
Anyway this was the list I used( new in MWS format and Fresh Lemon Taste!!!):
Choices: Spell Snares over Snuff Outs. Didn't expect much aggro-control( there was no Thresh at all!!!) so I went for Snares. 19 lands because I didn't want to get manascrewed and liked to disrupt players some more.Code:// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com) // Lands 3 [R] Underground Sea 2 [GUR] Island 4 [ON] Polluted Delta 3 [ON] Flooded Strand 1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire 4 [TE] Wasteland 2 [GUR] Swamp // Creatures 4 [FUT] Tombstalker 4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought // Spells 3 [OD] Predict 4 [AL] Force of Will 4 [NE] Daze 4 [VI] Vision Charm 4 [SC] Stifle 4 [IA] Brainstorm 4 [LRW] Ponder 3 [DIS] Spell Snare 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize // Sideboard SB: 3 [R] Winter Orb SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant SB: 1 [PS] Rushing River SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB was just thrown together... Confidants, because I didn't have Needles and 3 different bounce spells for testing purposes.
Any ideas for the MUC and D&T matchups. As soon as the opponents play rocksolid manabases I just tend to loose. I'm going to try a splash, but don't know wich one yet.
@ Frank the Tank: The power of this deck is that it can slap down turn 2/3 Noughts and Stalkers. What you do is to take a step beack and try to go for a slower aproach. This doesn't need to be bad, but Deed with 8 >2CC spells and 18 lands is troublesome. On top of that the tricks I pull with Charm are so divers it makes me sick. The most powerfull tool is, that it protects Dreadnought against everything( Except Grip). Also Daze looses his power faster if you don't run Wasteland. If you are destine to go in that direction Try adding more lands at least.
BB
Last edited by Benie Bederios; 12-08-2008 at 04:22 AM. Reason: Spellcheck
It just usually seams that if I slap down naught or stalker turn 2 I have to have at least 2/3 counter back ups to keep him out against Swords, smother, snuff, etc.
Now if I go though an attrition war and loose my naught on turn two Im not that upset because I have the goyfs and stalkers for backup and they have already used up all their removal.
Plus I can't count the number of times my naught has been K gripped lol. If they are running green expect to see those coming out in full force.
Before I added in the smothers I had a lot of problems with Bobs and no way to remove them. Either I had to drop a deed and blow it just for him (giant waste of mana) or he would just sit there and they would out draw me and win. Having the pinpoint removal is nice for problematic creatures and against those random.decs.
On MWS I was playing against a sliver deck of all things and smother was an all star against his Sedge Sliver.
Both Misdirection and Lightning Greaves seem like solid options if you're worried about removal.
Lightning Greaves also adds haste and speeds up your clock by a full turn. I would atleast sideboard in this beast against Grips.
Lightning greeves wouldn't speed you up because you have to use the 2 mana on turn to to get it out instead of playing the naught/stifle turn two. Also it only takes two turns to kill with naught and in response to you equipping it they can just K grip it. Misdirection would also be a bad choice due to split second and getting even more cards out of your hand along side force.
If you're worried about seeing multiples of FoW alongside Misdirection...
you can always pitch Misdirection to Force or viceversa (there's boatloads of situations where Misdirection would be far superior to Force). So that's not a very good reason.
Ahwahwahwa I can't follow this dicussion.
What's your point exaclty? You say what we have been saying the time. That we try to protect one thread, normally the Dreadnought. If he dies we finish it of with Tombstalker. Because of most of the people found 8 critters to few alot of players start playing Goyf. Nothing new here right?
I rarely see my Dreadnought Gripped. At least not after beating for 12. Keep them of mana or try to Seize it out of there hand is the trick. Running into a Grip is very bad.
True Snuff Out is one of the weaker slots... I found it nice to stop a Goyf or even Lackey with it. But if you see alot of black I can understand it.
Both doesn't deal with Grip as he said. Greaves doesn't even stop instant removal( allthough you can play around both with Vision Charm, but requires alot of setup). More counters doesn't work that good either. You only have 4/6 cards in hand when you have played Dreadnought. Playing 11 or 13/14 counters isn't a signifcant difference.
True.. I think he was talking about removal in general. Playing around Grip with Greaves in play si possible as I said, with Vision Charm. I don't think the card is that great though. Playing Goyf is just better.
Allthough it's true, the deck playes enough counters as it is. No need to play another pitchcounter. You burning away your hand fast enough already. After Nought I have 15 counters and 3 discard spells. Good luck hitting my Dreadnought.
My next Tournament is 4 Januari. This is the list I'm going to test for now.
Reasons:Code:// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com) // Lands 2 [R] Underground Sea 1 [GUR] Island 4 [ON] Polluted Delta 3 [ON] Flooded Strand 1 [ON] Bloodstained Mire 4 [TE] Wasteland 2 [GUR] Swamp 1 [R] Tropical Island 1 [R] Bayou // Creatures 4 [FUT] Tombstalker 4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought 3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf // Spells 3 [OD] Predict 4 [AL] Force of Will 4 [NE] Daze 4 [VI] Vision Charm 4 [SC] Stifle 4 [IA] Brainstorm 4 [LRW] Ponder 3 [DIS] Spell Snare // Sideboard SB: 3 [R] Winter Orb SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle SB: 6 [GUR] Island
Green splash stricktly for Goyf... Need another beater and will be either this or Sea Drake... Thoughtseize was my worst slot and got boarded out the most.
The sideboard is undecided... I probably keep Winter Orb over Dark Confidant. The rest could be Krosan Grip, Trygon Predator or even Pernicious Deed.
I keep you posted
BB
Last edited by Benie Bederios; 12-08-2008 at 09:33 AM.
Why do you feel that thoughtseize is the worst card? Although I do tend to side these out once and a while, I side out ponder more often though.
In regard to your side board, I guess the blue blasts are for goblins. When do you find yourself sliding in the Winter Orbs?
Are the islands for Price of Progress, wastelands, and/or Back to Basics?
I don't know, it is between Thoughtseize and Spell Snare. In testing Spell Snare was the better card. I didnt find anything usefull with Seize. I'm going to test the day after tomorrow and will use a split card and see which one turns out to be better.
Blue Blasts are against Goyf Sligh, Burn and Goblins and to a lesser extend Dragon Stompy. It hits quite some matchups wich is nice and it makes up for the fact opponents will play Tin Street Hooligans and that sort of things.
Winter Orbs come in against control with solid manabases( MUC and Uw(b)Landstill) there not that great, but I have no idea what to do else. What is worse for those matchups, Confidant or Winter Orb? Or do you got another idea?
The Islands( now only 1) are for Back to Basics and Wasteland normally. I like to fetch out my basics first. With this manabase I can cast all spells except Goyf of basic lands.
BB
EDIT: Why isn't this deck in Established, since it has a Primer? Who do we need to contact?
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