I do play Mox Diamond in the white splash build of the deck. It's a strong card, and EE and Keg haven't really been major problems. It helps me justify playing 4 Crucibles, along with 2 Raven's Crime both of which have been really strong.
But I'm still not sure if it would be worth cutting other cards for in the mono black version.
In the white version, it atleast helps smooth out the mana base as well. I wanted to take apart my white version to try out mono black pox again with Mox Diamond to see if the card is worth it here, but I just can't get back to playing Mono B after having picked up white.
I just did some dicking around with Pox lately, and I came up with a really awesome but generic list. The list was consistent, though it had trouble against Goyf Sligh and Burn, I've beaten almost everything else like Thresh, Landstill, Vial Goblins, and TES. Personally, the only decks I hate playing against are Aggro Loam, Burn + Aggro Decks, and White Weenie esque swarm shit. Other than that, Pox has been treating me fine.
// Mana 28
4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
13 Swamp
// Creatures 4
4 Tombstalker
// Spells 28
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
3 Powder Keg
3 Chainer's Edict
2 Crucible of Worlds
// Sideboard 15
3 Perish
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Duress
Crucible of Worlds is awesome. I one time had this really bad ass opening against Thresh where I played Rit -> CoW. Let's just say it resolved and it was the easiest Game 1 ever. He even boarded terribly against me because I didnt do very much. He assumed I was playing an awful Black Stax build with Rits because I had Powder Keg in play as well. There was also this one time post-pox where I just cast CoW and started recovering Factories and created a soft lock using my Wastelands to keep the opponent from winning. And yes, now does the resolution of Pox actually win the game for you for all the time?
Powder Keg is imo, necessary. It's tons better than Damnation obviously because it's used to kill off small creatures and keep the board clean.
I have Extirpates in the board because Aggro Loam and Ichorid piss me the fuck off. Same reason why I run 4 Relics. Fuck both decks and graveyard randomness decks!
Perish is in the board for Thresh. I was thinking of running Damnation, but Perish is better. Serious, Perish is the shit.
I have extra Duress effects for Combo, Control, and other stupid decks like Ichorid where an extra Duress would be better.
Thoughtseize over Duress? What? Well, the only reason why your life total is ever lower than it should be because some stupid creature resolved and started depleting your life total. With Thoughtseize, you prevent that from happening for the price of two life. Running Duress would let stupid things like Tarmogoyf resolve. Don't let such a stupid card resolve, seriously. Also, Thoughtseize is the shit against Ichorid as well. I stole a game by stabbing Putrid Imp after the Ichorid player had mulled to 4. Bad ass, right?
Last edited by Citrus-God; 12-07-2008 at 08:30 AM.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
^ First list I've seen in this thread in 20 pages that I don't have any arguments against. :)
Well Chainer's Edict seems odd. You're never going to have the seven mana for the flashback cost, so Innocent Blood or Smother would work better imo.
And Crucible may need to be three of if you're playing 4 Wasteland and 4 Factories. You might also be better served if the Rituals were something else (say Mox Diamond maybe).
But overall, a very solid list all around. I like it a lot. Great job.
True, I wasn't going to get that picky though: I always like diabolic edict over the other options myself: 1 mana spells *always* get stopped by countertop (flip top back to your library), and instant speed means you can edict at eot.Well Chainer's Edict seems odd.
My brother plays counter-top in about three different decks though (or, I guess he prefers decks that use it, to put it another way), so I face it a lot in testing.
My favorite COW episode was game one against 4 color landstill. Turn 1s we both thoughtseize each other. I topdeck a hymn to play on turn two. He plays stand still. I take a risk and break it turn three with a COW. I start to wastelock him but he plays stifle on my wasteland attempts three times in a row. It was *hilarious.* He concedes after I force through a Tombstalker.I one time had this really bad ass opening against Thresh where I played Rit -> CoW.
How dark ritual is working for you guys? (like in your list Citrus-God); it's a slot i'm not really sure about it, here my list:
13 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Infest
3 Crucible of Worlds
I don't have Sinkholes, i know it's a big miss; i still use Infest, but i almost see no more in the lists you are posting, maybe it's outdated, and we play something else now? (like Damnation, or what else). I play against many weenie decks (like Merfolks, white weenie, green stompy and more) so i need something to fight against mass critters.
I wrote a post on the use of dark ritual a while back. My conclusion came down to how you use your sideboard: if you have a lot of three mana spells (trinisphere/e-plague/etc. on top of CoW main) playing dark ritual in the main deck makes a bit of sense.
It's not worth main decking dark ritual in order to "ritual>thoughtseize>hymn" though.
It comes down to the speed of your meta, imo: if there's a lot of combo, it can be worth wasting a card (ritual) to enable you to do things at a speed that you normally couldn't.
Being able to turn 1 "rit>trinisphere" or "rit>duress>powder keg" (game 1) against TEPS is really useful.
If your meta is slower, however, using three cards to take away three cards ("ritual>thoughtseize>hymn") isn't so hot.
It's perfectly acceptable for a more budget pox deck to focus on discard (even using The Rack); I think that's a far more reasonable path to take Pox than a lot of the shenanigans that get posted here.I don't have Sinkholes, i know it's a big miss;
OTOH, if you have waste-lock built into your deck already, it's kind of an uneasy middleground to be in, as you can't focus one way or another.
[quotw] i still use Infest, but i almost see no more in the lists you are posting, maybe it's outdated,[/quote]
Most people assume that the Thresh matchup is key and Goblins is Dead. If infest works for you, it's not outdated.
If you play against a lot of dredge and charbelcher, my favorite mass removal is echoing decay (instant speed).
Originally Posted by Samsunait
I personally think the best answer to Weenie strategies are Nether Spirit and Powder Keg. Also, I think Dark Ritual is a bad spell here. It's better to cast Sinkhole with Dark Ritual than Smallpox in it's place. However, I would keep Dark Ritual in so you can employ an old favorite spell of mine; Hypnotic Specter. First turn Rit, Pox is a killer move, indeed, but don't forget first Turn Hippies, Duress + Hymn, and other goodies.
Against Weenie decks and Tarmogoyfs, I personally find Powder Keg to be the bomb. Powder Keg is better than say, Damnation, because it comes down earlier, kills a swarm, then proceeds to keep the board clean as Pox and friends wreck havoc.
Here are the changes I would make;
-4 Infest
-4 Innocent Blood
-2 Nether Spirit
-1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
+3 Diabolic Edict/Chainer's Edict
+4 Hypnotic Specter
+3 Powder Keg
+1 Wasteland
Diabolic Edicts fill that slot because you're running Hyppie now. You should be clearing the path for Hyppie to make soft locks on things.
Chainer's Edict midgame, Tombstalkers. Post board, you can bring in Smokestacks, Braids, Trinisphere, Ensnaring Bridges, Wretched Mind, or Mind Shatter.
@Innocent Blood vs. Chainer's Edict: I'm running Chainer's Edict because I run maindeck CoW and Dark Rituals which allow me to power into the flashback cost. I also run Chainer's Edict because I want to be able to remove Goyfs while I have an active Tombstalker out so that I can race more effectively.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Also known as a free two for one special. Just about every deck being played out there will make you pay for even trying that. If you want to tell someone to play Eva Green or whatever, just be up front about it, but playing real creatures in Pox isn't exactly the best idea.first Turn Hippies
You also seem to be misunderstanding the use of powderkeg: it isn't in the maindeck of pox because it's a Cheap Damnation, it's there because it gives you a game-one chance against the widest variety of decks: zombie and goblin tokens, nantuko monastaries that you can't kill with soceries, jitte and its lifegain (keg is the only artifact destruction that black has access to), while being an *acceptable* creature kill if the other two reasons aren't required.
Powderkeg is worse than Terror vs. Tarmogoyf. If you ever manage to kill two goyfs with one powderkeg, your opponent shouldn't even be playing magic.
Powderkeg is supposed to give you options game-one and you're supposed to bring in things that are more appropriate in games two and three. You're misleading him by saying it's a sweeper as it doesn't ever really sweep the things you seem to be indicating it does: It's not damnation, not even close. In most cases, it's just a terror that takes two or three turns to come online -- it just so happens that can save you from being blown out by turn-1 combo decks and artifacts like ensnaring bridge.
Hyppie is disruption. You keep him around until you feel that you need to cast a Pox or a Smallpox. Chainer's Edict and Powder Keg should keep his spree going as well.
It's faster than Damnation, which is why I'm running it. The two cards serve the same purpose; to be used against cheap creatures cast in the early game. I realized the flaws of Damnation after a game against Zoo. Had a Powder Keg came into play earlier, I wouldnt be losing that much life that it would put me in Burn range.You also seem to be misunderstanding the use of powderkeg: it isn't in the maindeck of pox because it's a Cheap Damnation, it's there because it gives you a game-one chance against the widest variety of decks: zombie and goblin tokens, nantuko monastaries that you can't kill with soceries, jitte and its lifegain (keg is the only artifact destruction that black has access to), while being an *acceptable* creature kill if the other two reasons aren't required.
I have done that before because the threat of an implied discard spell or land destruction spell forces them into those positions.Powderkeg is worse than Terror vs. Tarmogoyf. If you ever manage to kill two goyfs with one powderkeg, your opponent shouldn't even be playing magic.
Have you not been testing against Zoo and Goyf Sligh? I refuse to believe that you will always lost those games. With Powder Keg, you should have a 30-45% chance of actually stealing game 1 if you cast it early. If I wanted a Terror, I would just play Terror or more Edict effects or Smother. But I don't. I want something that answers early game threats effectively and can potentially keep me safe from multiples of that threat as well. Seriously, why are we even having this absurd discussion that we're running some 2 cc artifact just to stop combo when half the cards you run cripples combo?Powderkeg is supposed to give you options game-one and you're supposed to bring in things that are more appropriate in games two and three. You're misleading him by saying it's a sweeper as it doesn't ever really sweep the things you seem to be indicating it does: It's not damnation, not even close. In most cases, it's just a terror that takes two or three turns to come online -- it just so happens that can save you from being blown out by turn-1 combo decks and artifacts like ensnaring bridge.
I do not believe I am misleading him that Powder Keg is more effective than Damnation because
1. I have 3 lands out at a time until I cast a Crucible of Worlds.
2. Powder Keg is much more effective at stopping swarms than Damnation because the more they decide to stock pile, the more you take advantage of the fact you can color screw him. If they stockpile against Damnation, that's awesome, but if they dont and play right into you, they'll drag your life total to Burn range. You want to be casting Pox when they have 1 or no threats in play generally. Powder Keg fullfills this much more effectively.
So by all means, defend your antithesis, because Damnation isn't nearly as effective in stopping White Weenie, Monogreen Stompy, and Zoo swarms compared to Powder Keg and the alternatives are severely sub-par, such as Infest. Another option is to make him run Mox Diamons, fetchlands, and Scrublands just to pull off running Engineered Explosives in that slot instead.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
After your suggestions, i think i'll change my list as follow:
13 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
3 Tombstalker
2 Nether Spirit
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood/Chainer's Edict/Diabolic Edict
2 Raven's Crime
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Powder Keg
Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Icequake/Rancid Earth (budget replacement to Sinkhole)
2 Raven's Crime
5 of something else
This way, i'm going for a more discard route, with raven's crime that i saw in the thread is working good for many, and 2 Kegs for taking care of critters.
The other option was to use Icequakes instead of Sinkholes, but i think that the 1 mana more makes all the difference in the world. They are in the side for now against decks with less or no creatures.
Thanks for all suggestions, i really appreciated; if you got more, keep'em coming!
Your list looks extremely solid. Every single card you run in the deck is an absolute bomb, so props to you on that.
My only concern would be that I expect your manabase often craps out on you when you need to play Pox.
Having to pay BBB when a third of your lands produce colorless mana can produce problems sometimes. But I suppose that Rituals helps with that a bit. And if it gets really bad, you could cut back on Mishra's Factory, up the Urborg count to 4, and cut 1-2 Poxes from the list.
I also wanted to comment on my testing with MOX DIAMOND for a moment. It's likely not worth the bother.
I know that I've been running it for the past month or two. But the results are very mixed. Some games it works beautiful, but other games, its absolutely worthless and you can't always discard it away to Pox or Smallpox. You need every card, esp. every top deck to be a powerful effect in this deck.
There's certainly nothing wrong with playing Mox Diamond. But at the end of the day, I'm of the belief that Mox Diamond isn't worth it overall as a whole, even if it works very well on occasion.
Alright i wasn't sure were to put this because its not like eva green. Its a poxless build with spash green for goyf and krosan grip. Like i was gonna run vaka pox but i like green more than white. And i know people say why would you wanna play smallpox with goyf, thats simple im not gonna drop a creature then play smallpox, i would play small pox to fuel the yard and then drop a 4/5 roughly sized goyf. And with the land and discard it will be hard for them to stop a goyf and then a stalker swinging down everyturn. So here is the rough list:
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Mishra's factory
4x Wasteland
6x swamp
2x urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4x Bayou
4x Tombstalker
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Thoughtseize
4x Sinkhole
4x Small Pox
4x Diabolic Edict
2x Raven's Crime
3x Crucible of Worlds
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Let me know your thoughts. Im still changing around what color splash i wanna play ha.
Top is good, but I don't know if it's the best possible card you could be playing.
Your list looks fairly similar to the below builds.
I hate that the below builds doesn't have room for Crucibles or Raven's Crime. But are you sure you can't splash both green and white. Swords and Vindicate are retardedly good.
And I've tried something similar to this before...
Yeah my problem is that i dont have the most money and i dont have the money to drop for scrublands and vindicate and such.
Honestly, no: I've never met them in a tourney so I've never bothered (I didn't even know the later was now on the DTB list, so thanks). I always play Chalice in my sideboard so I wouldn't exactly panic if confronted by either, though.Have you not been testing against Zoo and Goyf Sligh?
I'm not sure I'd play pox [deck] if I expected so much burn, though; at the least, I'd probably splash white.
What is your current Sideboard at the moment? I'm interested in hearing how Chalice works out. I might cut the Duresses and maybe 1-2 more cards and shove 4 Chalices in there.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Forget about land destruction. With all the aggro control decks running around play 8-12 creatures tops these days, I think a super budget version of this deck playing nothing but removal and threats could do quite well, and on the cheap.
Here's a sample list...
Ultra Budget Pox
14 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
2 Dakmor Salvage
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smother
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Phyrexian Totem
4 Chimeric Idol
4 Epochrasite/Nether Spirit
What do you think? Is this a bane to Aggro Control decks everywhere? Or should I try to squeeze in even more removal (Powder Keg, Edicts) into the deck?
If you don't keep aggro control decks off their land then they will just control you all day.
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