[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

[troopatroop]

I think you do a disservce to a lot of legacy players by posting terrible decklists. I find the problem quite a bit in some of these threads, where users would just post a decklist without any discussion.

If you truly believe this list is a lot better than the accepted list, please defend where it is better.

Okay. In any metagame where you're not playing against blue in the majority of your matchups, I would rather be playing that version of ANT. You will simply goldfish decks without Force of Will with confidence and consistency, the likes of which I do not always feel with TES. Mystical Tutor + LED is amazing against anything not blue. If you have any two lands untapped or anything that can produce mana at instant speed, you WILL win the game next turn. Being able to AdN for more cards on average makes your aggro game stronger and your points of life less precious. It goldfishes an almost effortless turn 3 win, and a very consistent turn 2 win. I'm not saying that TES doesn't also do these things, I just think that this build has given me the most consistent results. The trouble is, Blue is the best color in Legacy, and probably the most played. I'm not saying that this build completely packs it to control, because it still plays protection, but it's strategy is very often to put AdN on top and blow LED during your upkeep. That strategy gets stopped cold by Force, but against anything without it you will always win. They won't always have FOW, and Turn 1 Duress is really good. Pact of Negation is also strong in this.

I'm unsure why you chose to call it a terrible decklist. It won the Okayama side event. We've waited for years to get strong Legacy results from Japan, and now that they drop this combo list in our laps you call it terrible. I've been keeping game logs of some good examples of sample hands that feature things that TES can't do. It was a dozen or so hands in a row without any exclusions, mulligans taken and good notes. Would it be worth it to post them?

[FredMaster]

It simply looses to Meddling Mage for Burning Wish.

[Dark_Cynic87]

yeah, and that's extremely common...

That's pretty much like saying "it pitches to fow".

I've stopped tes by naming burning wish and tendrils with double mage while testing MM in my sideboard of FT. Does that make tes unplayable because I did that? Besides, the list runs a Pyroclasm. I think it needs more hate than just that (so you can board one in and leave the other so you have 10x tutors that can grab it from one area or the other), but most of the time you can tell what decks are packing MM, and sideboard appropriately.

I understand that you are saying that it's poor judgement (and I agree) to not run a kill-spell in your list, but he's arguing from a standpoint of a non-blue format, which eliminates MM as an argument because every list I'm aware of (besides FT that sometimes uses MM) also runs FoW.

Not to mention it's my opinion that if you were to take that list to a tournament, you would be a fool not to include 4x Pyroblast/REB somewhere in the 75 simply because you must acknowledge the fact that you MIGHT face blue.

Pce,

--DC

[kroelai]

Okay. In any metagame where you're not playing against blue in the majority of your matchups, I would rather be playing that version of ANT. You will simply goldfish decks without Force of Will with confidence and consistency, the likes of which I do not always feel with TES. Mystical Tutor + LED is amazing against anything not blue. If you have any two lands untapped or anything that can produce mana at instant speed, you WILL win the game next turn. Being able to AdN for more cards on average makes your aggro game stronger and your points of life less precious. It goldfishes an almost effortless turn 3 win, and a very consistent turn 2 win. I'm not saying that TES doesn't also do these things, I just think that this build has given me the most consistent results. The trouble is, Blue is the best color in Legacy, and probably the most played. I'm not saying that this build completely packs it to control, because it still plays protection, but it's strategy is very often to put AdN on top and blow LED during your upkeep. That strategy gets stopped cold by Force, but against anything without it you will always win. They won't always have FOW, and Turn 1 Duress is really good. Pact of Negation is also strong in this.

I'm unsure why you chose to call it a terrible decklist. It won the Okayama side event. We've waited for years to get strong Legacy results from Japan, and now that they drop this combo list in our laps you call it terrible. I've been keeping game logs of some good examples of sample hands that feature things that TES can't do. It was a dozen or so hands in a row without any exclusions, mulligans taken and good notes. Would it be worth it to post them?

Yeah, sure, post those notes!

I would recomend one Bouncespell main so you can tutor it.

[Shriekmaw]

It simply looses.

QFT

[troopatroop]

It simply looses to Meddling Mage for Burning Wish.

The build of the deck is not mainstream, and until your opponent knows that you're not playing win conditions mainboard, he will/should probably name Orim's Chant. The rogue factor is very real, especially when you're playing sac lands/dual lands because they'll have no idea what they're playing against. If this deck got more popular, you can always maindeck a bounce spell or slaughter pact. This all assumes that he was able to play Meddling Mage before I won in the first place. If I'm on the play, he'll be lucky to get that far. Meddling Mage is better against this build. Yes, but what relevant decks play MM anyways? Is a 2/2 for 2 even worth it anymore? And again, it's blue.

QFT

You lecture me to provide content in my posts, and then say this directly after. My post pointed out that it was the winning list, a fairly important contribution. This is spam. In the DTB.

[Nightmare]

If your strongest argument is "It's better against decks that don't run blue," then I'm not sold. Either deck should steamroll any deck not playing blue.

[troopatroop]

If your strongest argument is "It's better against decks that don't run blue," then I'm not sold. Either deck should steamroll any deck not playing blue.

Yes, they should both steamroll non-blue decks, but they don't always. TES can lose to aggro decks by getting unlucky in various ways, but this build is more consistent. LD is less devastating, Discard is worse against you, and Zoos clock becomes less scary (Since you have a much lower curve for AdN and are less likely to fizzle). You have to remember that this deck still has tools to fight the blue decks, and can change its playstyle in those matchups. so the results we need are...

How much better is TES against blue?

vs.

How much better is ANT against non-blue?

If TES is 50-50 against blue and 60-40 against otherstuff, while ANT is 45-55 against blue and 65-35 against otherstuff, I would say that TES is the better deck, because the blue matchups are more relevant. However, if the numbers were a point farther in ANT's favor against non-blue, I would give it the nod. You still have a fighting chance against blue.


Until we get that information, it's hard to quantify the difference. Those questions can't be answered without a couple dozen games against the entire field for both build decks, something that's beyond my means. So I reiterate, I think ANT is a stronger choice in metagames without much blue. If I had more time, or when finals end and I have Christmas Break, I'll try to get some real evidence. Until then I can't offer much more than opinion.

[Bryant Cook]

Yes, they should both steamroll non-blue decks, but they don't always. TES can lose to aggro decks by getting unlucky in various ways, but this build is more consistent. LD is less devastating, Discard is worse against you, and Zoos clock becomes less scary (Since you have a much lower curve for AdN and are less likely to fizzle). You have to remember that this deck still has tools to fight the blue decks, and can change its playstyle in those matchups. so the results we need are...

Bad draws happen in every deck, don't act like they don't happen in the other list. LD, Seriously? We play the same amount of artifact mana and rituals. That's what matters, you having 3 more lands barely makes a difference and decreases your chances of a turn 1/2 win. Where TES could've won because it didn't have lands clogging up it's hand. TES doesn't need to cast Ad Nauseum against Zoo, we play Ill-Gotten Gains, this is how we win our aggro match-ups.

How much better is TES against blue?

vs.

How much better is ANT against non-blue?

TES is much, much better against blue decks. Orim's Chant will always be better against blue than Duress, where the numbers are flopped in each list. Then, post sideboard, they don't play Pyroblast or Vexing Shusher. Making our blue match-ups better.

If TES is 50-50 against blue and 60-40 against otherstuff, while ANT is 45-55 against blue and 65-35 against otherstuff, I would say that TES is the better deck, because the blue matchups are more relevant. However, if the numbers were a point farther in ANT's favor against non-blue, I would give it the nod. You still have a fighting chance against blue.

I disagree. Where are you getting these numbers? I want to know what cards are giving you these increases against "Other stuff". Are you forgetting against "other stuff" TES has the Igg-loop and doesn't care about life totals? Where you're locked into that situation, where you have to care about your life.

[GoldenCid]

It simply looses to Meddling Mage for Burning Wish.

Is it really like that?? Don't you play ad nauseam to get, infernal tutor, tendrils or EtW??

[deviant]

Is it really like that?? Don't you play ad nauseam to get, infernal tutor, tendrils or EtW??

The list he was referring to did not.
Out of plain curiosity, didn't you even think of checking what post he was referring to?

At least I double-checked he wasn't wrong with that statement..

[GoldenCid]

The list he was referring to did not.
Out of plain curiosity, didn't you even think of checking what post he was referring to?

At least I double-checked he wasn't wrong with that statement..

Yeah my bad! It was because i had in mind my decklist which is similar to Larmer's one:

4 [AN] City of Brass ()
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine ()
1 [CHK] Forbidden Orchard ()
1 [MR] Glimmervoid ()

3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide ()
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains ()
4 [B] Dark Ritual ()
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony ()
4 [CS] Rite of Flame ()
4 [PS] Orim's Chant ()
4 [TE] Lotus Petal ()
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond ()
4 [MM] Brainstorm ()
4 [JU] Burning Wish ()
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor ()
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual ()
3 [MR] Chrome Mox ()
3 [ALA] Ad Nauseam ()
4 [LRW] Ponder (here i'm not really sure if run this or mystical tutor)

Sideboard (15)

1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens ()
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains ()
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony ()
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens ()
3 [GP] Shattering Spree ()
4 [R] Red Elemental Blast ()
1 [7E] Pyroclasm ()
4 [US] Duress ()

i'm a bit noob playing this deck and i'm that you will give useful suggestions to improve this list.
I like this but comments are needed and welcomed specially in SB. Vexing shusher is really needed against blue control?
And by the way...how do we deal with trinisphere???

[deviant]

We Shattering Spree it?

[matelml]

If your opponent cats a Trinisphere, you have about 85% chance of losing, unless you already Wished for SSpree, which isn't unreasonable in Stax/Dragonstompy matchups.

[GoldenCid]

If your opponent cats a Trinisphere, you have about 85% chance of losing, unless you already Wished for SSpree, which isn't unreasonable in Stax/Dragonstompy matchups.

With a trinisphere in play shattering spree cost (3), so...we are in a big problem...

And by the way....how is the matchup against other fast combo decks such as ichorid??

[myselves]

And by the way....how is the matchup against other fast combo decks such as ichorid??

Ichorid is no fastcombo.
Ichorid looks quite good, chant them in response to the trigger of his narcomoeba so you get rid of a fast kill by his side or a lot of therapy actions.
also wish->returns shines here.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that you're faster in the goldfish.

The ANT MU depends on their build, till now I would say it's a lil bit in TES favor, maybe 55-45 or anything like this.
Mindgaming around O.Chant can win, but this alos depends on their playskill.

[Jaiminho]

The ANT MU depends on their build, till now I would say it's a lil bit in TES favor, maybe 55-45 or anything like this.
Mindgaming around O.Chant can win, but this alos depends on their playskill.

Both decks will use Duresses to cry and clear the way off threats, Duresses and Chants. The thing is that ANT runs 4 Duresses and 4 Mystical Tutors. The longer the game goes, more advantage ANT gets over TES. Postboard, TES has Pyroblasts to screw ANT's setup (most importantly, Mystical Tutor), but that's about it. It will still have access to less protection.

[Nightmare]

Both decks will use Duresses to cry and clear the way off threats, Duresses and Chants. The thing is that ANT runs 4 Duresses and 4 Mystical Tutors. The longer the game goes, more advantage ANT gets over TES. Postboard, TES has Pyroblasts to screw ANT's setup (most importantly, Mystical Tutor), but that's about it. It will still have access to less protection.

Except for the fact that their protection serves double duty as reactive disruption...

[GoldenCid]

I still have answers about how we deal with enchantmant and creatures:

Enchantments:
Pyrostatic pillar
Rule of law
Arcane laboratory
Runed halo
Worship

Creatures:
Ethersworn Canonist
Gaddock teeg

What can i do?

I run a death mark in the SB to wish it, but for enchantments what do you recomend tranquility, hull breach, other???

[Hopo]

For troublesome enchantments:
Tranquility
Hull Breach
Cleanfall
Serenity
bounce

Serenity is my current favorite, as it is sweet also against chalice/thorn of amethyst/countertop and lets you combo with everything untapped.

For creatures:
Deathmark
Slaughter Pact
Pyroclasm
Grapeshot (usually not compatible with Canonist)