[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

[nitewolf9]

We tested these sideboards in an effort to shore up the zoo/sligh matchups:

4 krosan grip
4 tormod's crypt
4 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top

and:

4 tormod's crypt
4 krosan grip
4 blue elemental blast
3 phyrexian dreadnought

Both seemed pretty interesting, but both configurations were too narrow. Sure, dreadnought is going to be very good out of the board against aggro, but edict is good as well while also being good against aggro control decks like threshold. Also, against zoo at least (Gbwr zoo), the win/loss numbers were the same pre and post board, with and without counter/top. It didn't really swing it at all (and that was game 2 testing, ie. no grips from opponent).

Vision charm is not a very strong card to be occupying board space, and I feel the blue blasts might be a necessity.

[Bourgeoise]

I think the current sideboard looks good, but I would never go without at least 3 engineered plague in the board since there is a lot of tribal decks floating around recently.

The big ones have been goblins and elves, but I've also seen faeries and merfolk in large events recently. These matchups are very bad for the deck without plague which is why I think its very necessary.

Have you tested it? I'll admit I haven't tested Elves myself but they seem like such a small part of the metagame that it isn't worth sideboarding for them.

Often in the goblins matchup I don't feel like even boarding in anything until I remember I have blue blasts, it really is not a hard matchup as you are making it sound and as Dan said neither of us has had any problem with it in tournament play.

I have not yet seen a faeries deck in tournament, though I just might not have been matched up against it and either but as with elves it seems like a small portion of a metagame if it is even present.

As far as Merfolk goes, I did play against it a couple of times in the last tournament I attended and only lost to the second due to topdecked merfolk with a reejerey in play, I agree that engineered plague would completely overwhelm these deck strategies but I have never felt behind against a tribal deck.


@ Omega

??????????

As far as decks running nonbasic land hate go just drop your threats as soon as you get them if you don't have an answer to the hate. Thoughtseize, FoW, and Daze should all be online when your opponent tries to cast a moon effect or B2B (Unless it is Dragon Stompy with it on turn one).

Dropping your threats when you do not have an adequate answer for these cards is the best thing to do because with a goyf of tombstalker on the board your opponent can no longer focus on disrupting your mana. If they go ahead with that plan anyways it just gives you extra turns to beat face. I've won in tournament play recently through both back to basics and crucible-wasteland lock by just running my dudes out there instead of using my mana to brainstorm or ponder for answers and keeping my counters back to protect my creatures instead.

Taking this approach was so effective that I didn't even bother boarding in grips for subsequent games.

[Shriekmaw]

I do appreciate your insights on the deck and sideboard. I was just explaining my experiences in the past when it came to certain matchups with regards to threshold.

I do like how this deck plays out because it has more mana denial by adding sinkhole to the deck and another great threat in tombstalker. I'll be interested in the results still to come, especially since the GP is getting closer and closer.

I'm going to work on the sideboard and will report back when I have some results and get your thoughts on it.

[Illissius]

We tested these sideboards in an effort to shore up the zoo/sligh matchups:

4 krosan grip
4 tormod's crypt
4 counterbalance
3 sensei's divining top

and:

4 tormod's crypt
4 krosan grip
4 blue elemental blast
3 phyrexian dreadnought

Both seemed pretty interesting, but both configurations were too narrow. Sure, dreadnought is going to be very good out of the board against aggro, but edict is good as well while also being good against aggro control decks like threshold. Also, against zoo at least (Gbwr zoo), the win/loss numbers were the same pre and post board, with and without counter/top. It didn't really swing it at all (and that was game 2 testing, ie. no grips from opponent).

It's pretty cool that you guys have already tested every suggestion I think of making. :)

Vision charm is not a very strong card to be occupying board space

Vision Charm

Instant
You can has Phyrexian Dreadnought.

I think that's a pretty strong effect against many decks. Sure, Vision Charm looks janky, but you have to keep the goal in mind. Dreadnought isn't a very reliable plan if you only have 4 Stifle and 3 Dreadnoughts and 8 cantrips to find them. If you want to get early 12/12 tramplers against the decks which lose to them with some degree of consistency, I think you need more than just Stifle. (Vision Charm incidentally has other uses, like turboing a Tombstalker.)

and I feel the blue blasts might be a necessity.

Could you elaborate on this? Against Moon effects? That I can understand. But otherwise, it either kills a dork or counters a burn spell, neither of which seem indispensable. Though I admit it sounds pretty good against Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs if you manage to keep Goblins off Lackey and Vial -- is that it?

[nitewolf9]

It's pretty cool that you guys have already tested every suggestion I think of making. :)

Like I said, we have put a LOT of time in testing this deck. Back when it was "Europe" with dreadnoughts, it looked almost identical to your dread stalker list, so there might be a reason for this similarity of thought process. We all had the same ideas at about the same time, when dreadnought was errata'd, but reached different conclusions. Nought could still be ok in the board, but you will be giving up a either a powerful tool against threshold, or against moon effects/goblins/sligh/aggro decks that give this deck problems (that all seem to run red).

Vision Charm

Instant
You can has Phyrexian Dreadnought.

I think that's a pretty strong effect against many decks. Sure, Vision Charm looks janky, but you have to keep the goal in mind. Dreadnought isn't a very reliable plan if you only have 4 Stifle and 3 Dreadnoughts and 8 cantrips to find them. If you want to get early 12/12 tramplers against the decks which lose to them with some degree of consistency, I think you need more than just Stifle. (Vision Charm incidentally has other uses, like turboing a Tombstalker.)

"Turboing out tombstalker" is not a relevant ability in this deck. You will never have a problem casting tombstalker. Charm will pretty much be a dead draw without a nought. I think I'd rather run 1 or 2 trickbinds if I were to supplement the stifles. It seems to just be a better card than vision charm.

Could you elaborate on this? Against Moon effects? That I can understand. But otherwise, it either kills a dork or counters a burn spell, neither of which seem indispensable. Though I admit it sounds pretty good against Ringleaders and Siege-Gangs if you manage to keep Goblins off Lackey and Vial -- is that it?

Blast is the most versatile answer to the aggro decks that can give you problems, while also being able to answer moon effects. It has really pulled its weight, so it has stayed in. Sometimes things just seem to work in practice. But versatility is the main thing.

Here's another idea about dreadnought: what about replacing tormod's crypt with dreadnoughts (maybe 3 dreadnoughts and a trickbind, I duno)? I rarely see ichorid anymore and nought might actually help with that matchup as well. That's the only reason crypt is in the board really, I can't think of any other matchup where you need it. Sure, it helps vs aggro loam, but you have so much other stuff to board in there and I haven't found that matchup to be very difficult.

He might even still be too much of a liability, but it may be worth testing against aggro like sligh or zoo. If it skews those numbers it could be worth it.

[Brizentine Empire]

I have been playing Goblins for over a year now, and I believe that their time is running short, at least until they are made prevalent again. The thing is, with GP Chicago in a couple of months, I think that Team America is going to be a good portion of the meta. So, I was wondering: how is the mirror match? And how does this deck perform against land-intensive decks such as Landstill, AggroLoam, 43land.dec, and even Dreadstill? I've been knocking around the idea of either playing this or Swan Thresh at the GP, so it would be nice to know your guys' opinions.

[nitewolf9]

So, I was wondering: how is the mirror match?

I'd say it's roughly even.

And how does this deck perform against land-intensive decks such as Landstill, AggroLoam, 43land.dec, and even Dreadstill? I've been knocking around the idea of either playing this or Swan Thresh at the GP, so it would be nice to know your guys' opinions.

Landstill seems to be a good matchup, at least most builds of it. It really depends on what kind of removal they are running and their manabase. AggroLoam is favorable, and post board you bring in a LOT of removal and yard hate.

Dreadstill will depend largely on their build, but it is very close. Against the Ur lists, pre board you are behind, but post board you are slightly ahead.

If 43land.dec is even a concern, I will say it's not bad actually. I've played against it a few times with TA and didn't find the deck to be very good. You have a lot of LD which is very relevant, and generally they will try to play maze of ith to stop tombstalker which you can just blow up turn after turn and keep swinging. Try to stop manabond, but even if they resolve that it's still not that bad. Post board crypts wreck them. I don't think the deck is very good, unless landstill is absolutely everywhere.

[MTL10]

If 43land.dec is even a concern, I will say it's not bad actually. I've played against it a few times with TA and didn't find the deck to be very good. You have a lot of LD which is very relevant, and generally they will try to play maze of ith to stop tombstalker which you can just blow up turn after turn and keep swinging.

honestly, i don't see how you beat a Maze of Ith... you only have 8 LD cards (wasteland and sinkhole) and they have 4 maze of ith Plus loam to recur them plus recurring factories to block goyfs over and over. Tabernacle seems rough too, especially when paired with a maze :/

also, is the list on the first post the most currently updated decklist? i'm trying to put together multiple decks to test for the GP and considering this is as close to Tier 1 as the legacy format can get, i'll put this one together as well. :)

[nitewolf9]

The list hasn't really changed. And seriously, test against 43land.dec if you insist on worrying about it. It's not that bad at all. You can just race them. Also, stifle works on maze of ith activations. They can't stop tombstalker unless they get a nut draw and dump a bunch of manlands on the table on the first turn to race you. You can also counter life from the loam to buy a turn. It's all about tempo. LD is good against that deck, lftl or not.

[Brizentine Empire]

I never considered 43land.dec to be a concern, but it is played every week at my local card shop to very good results. It seems that TA, however, could have problems with Zoo, which might be a little bigger than expected at the GP in March.

[rsaunder]

I'd say it's roughly even.

Ouch. That one hurt.

If the meta is going to involve a lot of bad creature decks in Chicago, MD edicts/removal may be the correct choice. Just like a janky metagame.

For some reason though, I bet Ichorid will be one hell of a meta concern. It's easily ported and easy to play if you have experience with vintage.

[Whit3 Ghost]

Ouch. That one hurt.

If the meta is going to involve a lot of bad creature decks in Chicago, MD edicts/removal may be the correct choice. Just like a janky metagame.

For some reason though, I bet Ichorid will be one hell of a meta concern. It's easily ported and easy to play if you have experience with vintage.

Yeah, Ichorid may very well be the new Affinity at Chicago.

As for the Zoo/Sligh matchup, what about boarding in additional removal like Smother or Ghastly Demise? It allows you to save your counters for Price of Progress and other bad things instead of having to counter Goyf and friends?

Also, would Chill merit any consideration?

[rsaunder]

Also, would Chill merit any consideration?

I think goblins would have to all but disappear as a meta concern to justify red hate that doesn't shaft the little green men.

[Shriekmaw]

Also, would Chill merit any consideration?

The goal is to improve all the decks matchups with a particular sideboard slot, which is why I think the blue blasts are really good. I don't like not having engineered plague in the board because it makes a lot of matchups very tough if not impossible to win, mainly the tribal decks.

I think Ichorid might be another concern, but I think its only a concern at the GP level. The best approach to fighting that matchup would be to play crypt or leyline in the board, I would lend toward crypt though.

At the GP, you will run into a lot of threshold decks which can be tough if you have to fight through them all day long.

Great deck, and hopefully more people will pick it up.

[Omega]

In "underdevelopped" metagame, i think chill are cards you need to play because of monored burn. However, i dont think you will have to play them at the GP. Ichorid should be more of a concern than Burn.

I would say that most decks are going to be aggro/control, control and combo. You won't see alot of the goblins. Some zoo probably

Its suicidal to play legacy without any disruption

Robert

[Shriekmaw]

You won't see alot of the goblins.

Are you serious? If you don't think you'll see goblins at the GP then you are living in fantasy land. Get with the program.



The GP field will consist of goblins, aggro control (threshold variants), and combo (storm/dredge).

Plus, the last to Legacy GP's we saw goblins in the finals with one winning it. It was really impressive when flash was around that Goblins got to the finals and almost won it.

[quicksilver]

I don't think goblins will be as prevelant as it once was. Now don't be surprised if you get paired against it, but also don't be surprised if you don't get paired against it.

[Frid]

The metagame has changed a lot. We dont have a legacy GP since colombus and flash wasnt banned yet so figure... I dont think goblins is as good it once was

[Obfuscate Freely]

Have you guys read the text on Chill? It's incredible against Goblins.

[rsaunder]

Well, it would be if goblins didn't play vial or lackey.