@URABAHNQuote:
I suppose we should all follow this advice and play 3 copies of every good card you want to see as early as possible. The usual suspects IMO would be Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, Tropical Island, Brainstorm, and Wasteland. That would certainly make deckbuilding interesting.Originally Posted by darkalucard
Why run 3 Tombstalkers over 4 Tombstalkers?
Because running 4 of a card makes you draw multiples and it is hard to have that many cards in your graveyard to be able to cast one after another. Also maybe he doesn't want to lose to double extirpate?
Why 3 Thoughtseize over 4 Thoughtseize?
Because as playing a card to the 4 copy max increases you drawing them early at the same time it increases you drawing them late when they are completely dead cards.
WTF Are you talking about!
So your saying Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, Swords to Plowshares, and Brainstorm are dead cards late game? WOW
When your losing to a Creature and you top deck a Thoughtseize it doesn't help you at all. Force of Will isn't bad late game because you can counter your opponents top-decks. Of course Goyf, STP, and Brainstorm are good top decks... and as for the land... That's a completely different story. They are not even spells that has to do with developing a mana-base which I was not talking about. Also I don't understand why you would need 4 Tropical Islands....
All I'm saying is Thoughtseize is a bad top-deck late game.
He was kidding.
The thing about thoughtseize and tombstalker (since apperantly an explanation is in order) are that they are so game-changingly good against every deck in the format that they should be 4-ofs, even if they're sub-par in certain circumstances.
If you pull 2 tombstalker in a game, chances are you won't be casting both of them for BB. By the time the second one gets into play you ought to have plenty of either mana or more cards in the graveyard. I have never once had a problem dropping two or even 3 tombstalkers in a game whilst strategically leaving some cards in the yard to feed goyf.
As for thoughtseize, they are a bad topdeck when you need removal/a creature. Yes. But so is daze, and arguably in many circumstances force of will. Thoughtseize is amazing early game, and this is undeniable. It's so good that it's worth the late game tradeoff because it so effectively helps you MAKE IT to the late game and strengthens your position therin.
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
Out of allot of decks that run Tombstalker this one seems to have allot of cards that can get into the grave early.
At least in this deck I agree that your right.
But in other decks I can totally see Daze, Tombstalker and other cards being played as a 3-of.
Finally got through reading this thread.
As everything I was going to respond to has already been responded to (and probably more eloquently than I would have), I'm just going to say 'grats on the finish and thanks for sharing this list with the community.
I knew there was a reason I've been wanting to pick up a playset of Tombstalkers.
Very nice deck guys!
Considering that you are running sinkhole instead of hymn, I'm really missing Extirpate in the deck. It radically boosts your manadisruption gameplan, particularly in conjunction with wasteland.
I would suggest cutting one daze for a mainboard extirpate, and finding room for 2-3 more in the SB. (-1KrGr -1ToCr)
Furthermore, a singleton dreadnought can't be too bad a strategy, although the 4 stifles are quite essential in their own right, given the lack of basics.
Not much room for improvement I'd say, I'm looking forward to see more results. Good job!
David is going to rape you. No joke, angry rape. Extirpate is bad for various reasons that have been discussed and regurgitated all over this forum. I suggest you go take a look.Originally Posted by alcaeus
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=11349
EDIT: SIGH. HOPELESS.
WRONG extirpate is bad in 95% of decks.
IT does fit in some decks and David G isnt alway right.
Maybe he's right like 95% of the time or something idk. 5% Wrong.
Why does it fit into black tempo threshold but not team america?
Did you not check out the results of the poll you linked to? In no way does the poll PROVE that Extirpate is good in some decks, but it does prove that most people believe that it's good in some decks (it should not come as a surprise when someone likes Extirpate).
From what I could tell, no definitive conclusion was reached in that thread. You can read it to hear out other peoples' arguments, but there's no answer located in that thread.
Just because David G. doesn't like Extirpate does not mean that it's bad. Saying David doesn't like the card is evidence of nothing, you can listen to the reasons why he thinks that it's bad, but "because I[/David] said so" is not compelling. It is up to you to decide whether Extirpate is good in this deck or not.
I'm someone who thinks Extirpate is worthwhile in some decks. Team America is not one of those decks. This is not a deck that wins the game through attrition and long term resource advantage. This deck wins the game on tempo, ASAP, with overwhelming force. Tormod's Crypt has a hell of a lot more short term impact than does Extirpate, and for less mana.
EDIT -- On the subject of "free spells are pretty good"... it's been a while since I've seen Submerge used anywhere.
SummenSaugen: well, I use Chaos Orb, Animate Artifact, and Dance of Many to make the table we're playing on my chaos orb token
SummenSaugen: then I flip it over and crush my opponent
What already consistent card in the shell of this deck do you suppose we replace with Extirpate? This is directed to everyone.
Do people honestly believe removing another players lands from their deck to be an efficient path to victory?
I wish I could get my opponents to spend mana on thinning my deck out for me.
Yeah Extirpate coupled with land destruction could be a brutal tactic! Congratulations you just spent mana and a card to remove 0-3 other cards from an opponents deck that:
1. He/she shouldn't be able to resolve to begin with versus this deck.
and/or
2. He/she most likely wouldn't have even seen during the match.
I swear that if this is some kind of joke account used solely for the purpose of pissing me the hell off, you've succeeded. Congratulations. You win. Please take the retardation elsewhere.
If you're actually serious, then you have problems outside of just thinking that Extirpate belongs in this deck. For reasons that are wrong, you believe Extirpate to be a good card. That is a fallacy. Extirpate is fucking terrible. Every time somebody says something along the lines of, "Extirpate is almost good, or better", I legitimately think they are worse at Magic than I used to. For some, that's impressive, for others I'm stunned that they could go even lower on the scale.
If you read that thread, you can see me detailing exactly why I think Extirpate is poor. If you read that thread, you see that most people defending the card (for whatever incorrect reasoning they have) argue that the card is justifiable for long term resource denial. Now, even though that's an awful way to look at it, assuming you use that theory for the card, it's position in the deck is utterly beyond anything that the deck is hoping to accomplish.
To suggest something like that implies two things.
1) It implies that you're playing the deck incorrectly. I'd recommend looking into how you've been playing the deck. If you're playing for the slow grind, where you go for the late game after attempting to destroy all of their lands/creatures, then you're playing the deck wrong.
2) It also implies that, for whatever reason, you believe Extirpate to be good. That's also wrong. The card is excellent at deceiving people into thinking that the card is good. No matter how many times people lose with that card (and truly, because of that card), they refuse to analyze it's weaknesses. Dan and I found that the only logical analogy is an abusive spouse*. I'd recommend looking into dropping that like a bad habit.
Seriously, beyond the fact that Extirpate is fucking terrible (which it is), I'm curious as to why you think that throwing a card away for the (theoretical) possibility of screwing them out of a color is worth it. If they have a second Tropical Island in play, then your plan to screw them out of a color is fucked. You have to wait for yet another Wasteland/Sinkhole to deal with it. Your magical, two card combo that might beat them (as long as they don't draw another Tropical Island), is awful. You have to be able to play and draw good cards to make your bad card not awful. Why not just play more good cards?
This isn't a personal attack, this is me trying to convince you why you're wrong. Sure, scathing personal commentary is probably one of the worst ways to convince a particular person, but hey, other people will read this too. Maybe I can convince them if you decide to continue playing with terrible cards.
For example, read the following:
@Illissius: I think you're a pretty cool guy, but for liking Extirpate, I legitimately think you're worse at Magic then I originally gave you credit for. This is in no way a personal attack, more a declaration of my thoughts and ideas as they pertain to you.
See? Doesn't matter that he's an Adept. Hell, I'll say the exact same thing to Nihil Credo or any of the Administrators (if they happen to hold that flawed belief).
@Dark Alucard: Funny story, Extirpate is bad in 100% of decks. True story too.
@Dude 666: Two things here:
1) Team America is a better version of Tempo Threshold.
2) Extirpate sucks in that deck too.
@Tosh: Sure, all I'm stating are my opinions on the card. However, it turns out that I've had opinions that have turned out pretty well in the past. Solidarity was an opinion once. It's the Fear too. Team America was an opinion that Dan shared. Seems to me that my track record for things that I'm extremely vocal about is pretty solid. It may be that my fondness for testing, and my months and months of playing the card may have given me an insight into how terrible the card is. On the other hand, you seem convinced that I'm talking out my ass. I'll tell you that you're wrong, but hey, since there's no way to forcibly sit you in a chair and go back in time with me so that I can prove it to you, I guess we're going to have to leave that be.
Even though everyone down here can attest to the fact that I played the card for quite a while (in the main deck at times!), I'm still like eighty per cent certain that you would refuse to believe that I know what I'm talking about.
What's better is that "talking" with you over the internet has given me an idea about you. When I see you post, I get the mental image of the guy who proves how "awesome" a card is because he totally just won this one game because of that card. Completely neglecting how many times he lost because of it, he blinds himself to the negatives, and only examines the card in the best possible light.
Again, not a personal attack, but a glimpse of my ideas as they pertain to you. Perhaps this will help further communications between us knowing how we stand to each other. It's not like anything can hurt at this point.
@Illissius: We tested Submerge in the sideboard, and it just wasn't good enough. Edict was better because of the fact that it didn't target. In testing, Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker were beatings, with Nimble Mongoose proving irritating once out of every three or four games.
Submerge was abandoned because of it's limited scope (and honestly, the question really is Diabolic Edict versus Submerge), and Diabolic Edict's more "permanent" answer was deemed more effective. Sure the tempo was pretty insane (when it happened), but this was one case where the benefits of the small tempo boost in very specific match ups wasn't warranted.
@Ertai's Familiar: You need to go to a tournament that I'm going to. That way I can give you a high five.
*LOLZ, I made a funny about domestic abuse, I guess I'm a terrible person.
Last edited by Deep6er; 10-29-2008 at 02:25 AM. Reason: Oh yeah, the asterisk was there for a reason.
For the foreseeable future, expect to see less of me. I've lost my internet connection, and so I'll only be able to get on by siphoning free Wi-Fi from the surrounding areas. Which isn't always consistent.
Plus, the guy that I used to leech off of has now instituted password protection. This means that I effectively do not have internet at home. :(
Your arguments for the terribleness of Extirpate are equally compelling for the uselessness of prayer and the absence of a god. Are you, David Gearhart, in fact an atheist?
But in all honesty, would anyone here ever play this card:
Because I know I wouldn't.Awesome!
B
Instant
Split Second
Especially not in a tempo deck like this.
Reading that post reminded me of reading The Brothers Karamazov all over again. Maybe he's the reincarnation of Dostoevsky.
Playing Extirpate in this deck is like making a delicious smoothie of tempo-y goodness and then taking a shit in it. End of story.
Well then. I guess my "I don't really think extirpate is a good idea" comment that I was about to make just got overshadowed a bit.
That card used to be ok in standard control mirrors. It's not good in legacy. It sucks as yard hate and for every time you "OMG RAPE" someone with it, there will be 9 or 10 other times that you draw it and wish it was anything else.
they haunt minds...
You will be happy to know that this deck took first in a 41 person event in Spain.
Liga Valenciana de Legacy, Spain
2008/10/26, 41 players
1 Team America
2 ANT
3 Belcher
4 Burn
5 Mono-R Goblins
6 Ugr Dreadstill
7 Ichorid
8 Ichorid
Sort of ...
Better Than Threshold by Hugo López
Mainboard:
1 Sea Drake
3 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spell Snare
3 Smother
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mind Harness
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun." --Ash
This ain't Team and this ain't America. So forget aboudid!
Ouch. Then again it is Spain. They still play Vintage Turbo-Land.
This isn't answering the question. Did I ask you which deck is better? No. [Verbal warning for flaming. - Bardo]
So again, why is exirpate justifiable in tempo black threshold and not in team america. And when you say it's bad there, I think I'll take Adan's word over yours.
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