I picked up this deck a day or two ago, and it;'s pretty interesting. I'm sure what I'm going to say might appear obvious to some, but keep in mind I just picked up the deck. Anyhow, here's what I found out after playing a number of games:
- I really don't like Wasteland in the deck. It's definitely NOT useless, as the ability to kill annoying lands like Glacial Chasm is pretty cool, however, what's more annoying is not being able to get UU for damn Lord of Atlantis. I just think the deck is better off with just Islands and Mutavaults. I run 17 Island, 24 Mutavault. On that note, I've been comfortable running 21 land at this point.
- Some of you are talking about running Stifle. I like Stifle, but I think it's a hit-or-miss card, thus I think running it depends on how well you know your meta. May I suggest running Spell Snare instead? So far, I MD 3 Spell Snare. Very good on the draw, obv. If you do use Spell Snare, you should side them out only if you know you're going to be on the draw for either g2 or g3 (and side out Daze for on the play g2/g3, mind you).
- Looks like most of you who posted lists agree on this, but I guess I'll be one of the first to emphasize this: 4 Standstill is a MUST. An absolute must. Most of my wins off of Merfolk have been off of drawing from Standstill. 4 AEther Vial, 4 Mutavault, cheap creatures and countermagic, always run Standstill. ALWAYS. You're crazy not to.
- Someone here mentioned that 2 Wake Thrasher is enough. I highly disagree with that notion. Wake Thrasher is one of your strongest creatures. In my playing with Merfolk, I'm almost never disappointed in seeing Wake Thrasher. It's the deck's trump card. Play 4.
- Have any of you tried Waterfront Bouncer? It's a really neat card. It seems particularly useful in this meta, as screwing over Dreadnoughts or Tombstalkers seems awesome. I'm not suggesting running this over Seasinger, by the way.
Here's my creature suite so far:
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
3 [SH] Tidal Warrior
2 [MM] Waterfront Bouncer
3 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
I took out 1 LoA because I really wanted to fit in Waterfront Bouncer.
Oh, one last observation:
Tidal Warrior is actually pretty USEFUL. I'd say it's strictly better than Cursecatcher (then again, Cursecatcher is too narrow). Not only does it allow for you to alpha strike unblocked (think Warrior + LoA), but it can act as a hoser as well. You can use it on your opp's land to shut him off a color, or 2 colorless. I used Warrior against Team America by trying to shut off my opp's Bayou, trying to to stop him from having B/G to cast Stalker or Goyf.
Like I said, I"m sure some of you noticed that, but I was pretty surprised to learn this detail about Tidal Warrior's ability. BUt yeah, it's still pretty weak so I just use 3.
That's all I have to say for Merfolk. I'm going back to campus so I won't be able to play MWS, but I thought I'd share what I learned from playing Merfolk. It really is an interesting deck and I hope it gets better.
P.S. I recommended Rushing River on the page before. Perhaps Wipe Away is way better, especially against Dreadstill.
I really think you're missing a key concept of this deck. It doesn't have a strong matchup late game to control decks, as it usually runs out of steam when running into mass removal (only running so many stifle/FoW will eventually lead to you running out). Keeping tempo is key here, and if you can slow down an opponent by wastelands and rishadan ports, you had better try. Plus 12 islands is almost always enough to play the LoA, but honestly, you shouldn't play him unless you know he won't be instantly sworded or burned. Also, aether vial doesn't care about colors, and you should get this ~44% of your opening hands.Originally Posted by Shawon
Spell snare doesn't stop many threats to this deck, only sometimes stopping EE, and never stopping deeds/wrath/nev's disk. Stifle is an all in one card, helping you with screwing over colors of an opponent's base, while keeping a huge threat to the opponent leaving a deeds or EE on the board (keeping in mind that there's a huge threat of keeping it in their hand because you are more likely to draw a FoW).- Some of you are talking about running Stifle. I like Stifle, but I think it's a hit-or-miss card, thus I think running it depends on how well you know your meta. May I suggest running Spell Snare instead? So far, I MD 3 Spell Snare. Very good on the draw, obv. If you do use Spell Snare, you should side them out only if you know you're going to be on the draw for either g2 or g3 (and side out Daze for on the play g2/g3, mind you).
I'm very skeptical of this statement, and it's probably just due to you not having playtested this deck very much. Let's look at the bad matchups first. Goyf sligh wrecks this deck, and 80% of the nonland cards in that deck can ping a 1/1 thrasher right off the bat. Mogg Fanatic laughs in the face of your 3cc 1/1 merfolk, along with grim lavamancer and every burn in their deck. I've also gotten this guy sworded so many times as a 2 of, that I've actually considered dropping him. I never would because I've won some games where I drop him in and next turn swing for lethal, but you really need to take into account how easy he is to kill, and how much of an investment you're paying for it. He isn't necessary to beat your good matchups, and he just sucks in the bad ones. 2-3 is my playtested range of goodness for him.- Someone here mentioned that 2 Wake Thrasher is enough. I highly disagree with that notion. Wake Thrasher is one of your strongest creatures. In my playing with Merfolk, I'm almost never disappointed in seeing Wake Thrasher. It's the deck's trump card. Play 4.
First off I can't believe you would ever drop a LoA for this card. But as a creature, he is very slow, has a large cost (although with your extra islands in here, I can see how you have pointless cards to pitch for his ability), and quite frankly doesn't belong in a deck that tries to gain tempo and win before the opponent catches up. If you really like the bounce that he provides (if he lives through his summoning sickness) then why not just run the echoing truths?- Have any of you tried Waterfront Bouncer? It's a really neat card. It seems particularly useful in this meta, as screwing over Dreadnoughts or Tombstalkers seems awesome. I'm not suggesting running this over Seasinger, by the way.
Haha this is great. I won't go into the obviousness of saying how everyone who played this deck knew about the LoA+ Tidal Warrior synergy. I'm just laughing at how amazing you think it is to shut people out of their colors with tidal warrior... if only they could print some lands that would also keep people off of their colors... like wasteland or rishadan port... and if only these cards could be used in a mono-colored deck that can support having the colorless by not really needing more than 2 islands to cast any spell.Tidal Warrior is actually pretty USEFUL. I'd say it's strictly better than Cursecatcher (then again, Cursecatcher is too narrow). Not only does it allow for you to alpha strike unblocked (think Warrior + LoA), but it can act as a hoser as well. You can use it on your opp's land to shut him off a color, or 2 colorless. I used Warrior against Team America by trying to shut off my opp's Bayou, trying to to stop him from having B/G to cast Stalker or Goyf.
Like I said, I"m sure some of you noticed that, but I was pretty surprised to learn this detail about Tidal Warrior's ability. BUt yeah, it's still pretty weak so I just use 3.
On the other hand, Cursecatcher single handedly makes your life vs. TES, ANT, and Ichorid far easier. Also, used in conjunction with stifling and wastelanding the opponent's lands, you can effectively stop their removal spells on your 8 lords, or slow them down 2-3 turns. The deck likes having about 6 merfolk that cost 1 in there to make sure you get a merfolk or vial out turn 1 before your turn 2 standstill. Not to mention the always fun sneak attack vial him in to counter a spell.
Yeah. I am amazed at how many people are playing Tidal Warriors. Even more amazing are the decks with Tideshaper Mystics. The alpha strike scenario is never going to happen against any deck that is decent piloted by any player who is decent. In fact, one of the weaknesses of the deck is the fact that it usually needs more than one creature in play to be effective - and this is hard to do against aggro-control and control opponents. That is the biggest reason why Wake Thrasher should be a 4-of in every single build. He kicks ass and takes numbers all by himself.
Phoenix Ignition has jusy explained to all in a very explicative ( and therefore, very right) way the reason why thrasher should be in 2-3x in Merfolks, and i fully support and give reason to his considerations. Thrasher is , most of the times, as strong in certain matchups as a card you would never like to draw in others. Do you think it's strong to draw a 3cc 1/1 against the rock or sligh- or even decks packing fire/ice ? it will be automatically killed, wasting 3 manas or, if you got lucky, a vial-hit.
Do you think it's strong to draw a 3cc 1/1 against decks which tend to gain enormous advantage as the turns pass over ? Absolutely yes. Just play against white stax, understand how wake thrasher is a bomb agaisnt this archetype and you'll sonely realize that he can win alone this matchup as long as you'll overextend your permanents to save from smokestack , counter the worst threats he'll play , and try to save also 2 mana for ghostly prisons, if any. It'll be at least 6/6 that will crush the opponent in 2-3 hits ( assuming that he uses ancient tomb and gets hurt by them).
Let's adfirm that it's a card which can be as strong as the most weak in the deck, depending on the situations, so 2-3 x is the right quantity for it.
And the fact that you say that you sometimes side out a Lord of Atlantis means that you haven't got the aim of the deck properly, since lord of atlantis is the core of the deck. A 2/2 for 2 that gives islandwalk ( read: the possibility not to be blocked by the 65-70 % of the decks-thestrongest ones-too- in legacy) and +1/+1 ( read: a faster, faster race for you) is always 4-ofs, and should never be questioned among the cards to side out. The only time when you could side him out is against the mirror, if you fear that Lord of Atlantis could give your opponent an excessive advantage if he gets more lucky than you and he has more merfolks on the board ( but he'll probably think the same thing).
Even fearing to not hit the UU for him is not really a think to worry about, since in the first turn of the game you must focus on destroying opponent's mana, by wasteland , port and stifle, but also to drop vial and begn to drop the "structural" guys - cursecatcher above all, which is 2000 times stronger than warrior because legacy is a format based on creature but most of all on istants and sorceries (think to landstill, combos, and even thresh)- and silvergill adept. Then, get your lords and drop them beginning to hit like a maniac, caring that they don't get destroyed ( and here, again, cursecatcher is amazing in saving its kings' asses).
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Sorry for the double post,
but
other 2 merfolks lists made top 8 in two big tourneys in spain: 1st and 2nd positions. OMFG this deck is going to become a tier1. Now i fully believe in this. SERIOUSLY.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I think that's like the 10th time in this thread that you've said you believe in this deck. Too bad magic, unlike Yu-Gi-Oh doesn't have a "believe in the heart of the cards" mantra.
On another note, no one has responded to my comments on maindecking the Relics. I would like to see more discussion on this, for the reasons I stated previously.
I said that i believe in this deck because all thnk that is a standard shit imported in legacy and consider it to be a crappy abherration just because it doesn't run 4 tarmogoyfs, so I'm very pleased to see that they weren't true about this and that merfolk is really a good deck. Now results are effectively proving this. So don't try to flame me, dude.
I am trying 2 relics maindeck ( i cut the 2 echoing for them) and testing on mws, and i feel they' re quite good, even if many times i wished they were echoings instead. However, since I'm gonna play in a meta full of threshes, I will keep them maindeck. After all, there's also a nice sinergy with thrasher, and the cantrip doesn't sound so bad even if the opponent plays a non-graveyard based deck.
Let's say that
Relic > ETruth against: Threshold, Aggro loam (not always), Team America, Ichorid (well, this depends on how fast the opponent can pull off the combo), IGG loop, Survival, The Rock (partially), and in general: decks abusing goyf, stalker and lftl.
ETruth > Relic against: Enchantress, Stax, Stompies- both Dragon and Faerie, DREADSTILL ( if a dreadnought resolves, it gets really hard, while before i had the little possibility to bounce him back), Belcher.
Of course I'm missing some decks, these came to my mind immediately.
I'll carry on testing them and I'll tell you which seem to be more useful.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
That's my point exactly. For decks it's better against you just named 7 specific decks, 4 decks coming from the DTB section. For decks it's worse against, you name 5 decks, only 1 coming from the DTB section. You can see how this card is better against every deck that isn't dreadstill, and at least with dreadstill we both run manlands, so the only thing to watch out for is a dreadnought, so you just have to make sure you have a counterspell ready, or just hope to slow them up enough to get a decent amount of folk to race it.
Also, against dragon stompy/faerie stompy, relying on a 2 of echoing truth to just slow them down a single turn isn't going to do very much. It might win the game since merfolk runs so much off of tempo and the one turn could be the game deciding turn, but in general I'd rather run a card in here that deals with 90% of decks than a card that just marginally helps against some decks.
Relic turns the 4 goyfs into a laughing stock, and cantrips when unnecessary (a huge bonus that echoing truth doesn't have except for it's ability to pitch to FoW). I run 3 just because it hoses so many decks right now. 3 echoing truth in the sideboard handle the rest of the matchups, but really the relic is just far better for the Merfolk than ET.
And think about it, when merfolk becomes something that isn't laughed at by people like the American national team, people are going to see the maindeck relics and start changing the metagame to not heavily rely on goyf/tombstalker/loam/crucible/ichorid/IGG/academy ruins/volrath's/threshold/squee.
And that's a metagame that I would love to see, since I love coming up with new deck ideas, but right now the current archetypes are too strong.
This seems good to me , could you show me your list ? because i think too that relic in 3-ofs are a good inclusion, but i can't really find room for another one.
I'm staring at how the deck is beginning to be played also here in italy, even if only 1 week ago it was badly despised by all the players with the "cool " decks; in spite of this, i believe that, even if merfolks will reach the DTB status, no one will really care about if we pack relic MD to the point that they'll change the configuration or their decks ( this can mean a smaller quantity of threats relying on the graveyard, or even pithing needle MD), and it's even more difficult that the'll change decks. It seems that , in magic ( or, at least, in legacy), certain decks belong to a "conservative " point of view of many players who'll never give up certain archetypes ( such as Thresh): it may become a tier2 (which very difficultly will happen), it may be pwned by merfolks, but they'll never renounce to play it.However, I'm still happy if this happens , since now i think that Merfolks is quite advantaged playing against those decks you named above, and usually the chances to win against them are very good ( of course, it depends on the players' choices and luck in drawing, but we can adfirm that relic gives a great boost in this matchups).
Well, we'll see what happens... For now, let's improve this deck.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
Tournament Report:
40 some man tournament I just played in with merfolks, and I won it. I'll post my results and deck for discussion, but the only card maindeck that I'm still not completely happy with is Sygg, River Cutthroat. The deck needs to have this many merfolk though, so I won't accept a change for Sygg that isn't one. Also, Sygg is much better than Tidal Warrior, so that also will not be a substitute. 3 Stifles and 3 Dazes were the perfect number. I don't really like having 4 dazes because top decking them late game is the worst thing ever, and as this deck has a lot of those terrible cards late game (daze, aether vial, islands, sometimes standstills). Also, the relics are what pushed this deck over the top, making some almost unbeatable matchups (aggro loam) into coin flips. Rishadan ports are horrible in this deck, and I am very glad that I didn't run them. This deck needs as many islands as possible, after accommodating the 4 wastelands and 3 mutas. I have been thinking of running 1 Riptide Laboratory but haven't tried it out at all yet. Also, playing no echoing truths leaves us wide open to the Moat -> commence scoop phase, but FoW hopefully is enough.
List:
12 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
2 Wakethrasher
2 Sygg, River Cutthroat
4 Aether Vial
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Standstill
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
SB:
2 Propaganda (I call it ichoscoop)
3 Chill (not nearly enough to make burn/sligh favorable, but I couldn't in my right mind play with no SB for them)
1 Umezawa's Jitte (see chill, also good against random aggro deck)
2 Pithing Needle (vs random stuff or mishra's factory)
3 Echoing Truth (good against lots of things)
2 Back to Basics (Aggro loam and the rock)
2 Sower of Temptation (Aggro Loam and random big creature decks)
Report: Overall 6-0-3
Game 1 Match 1: Belcher deck. Game 1 I play island, daze and force his hand-emptying attempt to belcher me. Swiftly pounded him with random merfolk soon after.
SB: +3 Echoing Truth +2 Pithing Needle, -2 Sygg -3 Relic
Game 2 M1:He plays land says go, I play island, cursecatcher, say go. He then proceeds to go off, I sac cursecatcher, he RFGs a spirit guide, accumulating enough mana (7) to counter my FoW on his Burning Wish with a pyroblast and Empty the warrens for 14. I don't rip an echoing truth and die.
G3 M1:Start with a sick hand after my first mulligan, stifle, FoW, Echoing Truth, Cursecatcher, silvergill, island. He eventually empties the warrens after pyroblasting both my FoW and my Stifle on it, but scoops soon after the echoing truth hits.
1-0
G1M2:Homebrew with Cursed Scrolls. Game 1 I got out 3 lords and a mutavault while he only got a dark confidant and managed to swords to plowshares one of them. Bashed for 7, 6 (after chump block), and game respectively.
SB: didn't see the cursed scrolls, -3 stifle +2 Sower +1 Jitte
G2M2:Start out with a cursecatcher, he drops a cursed scroll. I play 2 consecutive silvergills while he puts another cursed scroll and a dark confidant out. Soon he chump blocks his bob killing one of my guys and plays Serra Avenger. Out of a hand, he proceeds to ping my guys. I take 3 flying a turn, while waiting for my vial to charge, but decide to drop a standstill so his hand will fill up. Sure enough, I pick the wrong card for 1 out of 2 cards, 1 out of 3 cards, and 1 out of 4 cards in his hand, and he is pretty mad (I would be too, but I'm a lucksack). Eventually I die to lack of outracing a 3/3 (couldn't get a lord into play since vial didn't ramp enough).
SB: -2 Sygg +2 pithing needle
G3M2:Starts out much better for me as I have a sick hand with vial, jitte, FoW, 2 lands and some folk. Looks like he got out another dark confidant and swung with it 2 times before I overwhelmed him with lorded folk and a wakethrasher.
2-0
G1M3:LED version ichorid. went first, got out a vial, he drops an LED and a land (no force in my hand). I ramp vial to 1, play a relic (and LOL at his face for that maindecked). Next turn he goes off with LED, putting 3 bridges in GY and 2 or 3 narcs into play. He therapys my hand, I Cursecatcher it, which RFGs his bridges before he gets guys. He sacs sacs 3 creatures to put a Simic Sky Swallower into play and we commence the race. I RFT his yard for good measure, but eventually get out a lord and mutavaults so I race him to 8, he can't kill me in 1 swing since I'm also at 8, so he waits and I eventually out-creature him. Who thought we could outrace a SSS?
SB: -2 Sygg, -2 Wakethrasher, -1 Reejery, +3 Echoing truth +2 Propaganda.
G2M3:Equally disgusting hand against him. First turn vial. I force his LED. 2nd turn cursecatcher, relic. He can't do much since I leave mana open for the relic, and eventually he scoops to the propaganda. Merfolk were made to beat GY based combo...
3-0
G1M4:Cephalid Breakfast variant. I play island turn 1, leave it up for stifle. He plays flooded strand, passes turn. Turn 2 I play top-decked vial + mutavault, stifle the fetch. Turn 3 i play standstill, proceed beatdown.
SB: -2 Sygg -1 daze, -1 reejery +2 Back to Basics +2 Pithing needle.
G2M4: Turn 1 relic, Turn 2 Silvergill, turn 3 Silvergill, turn 4 standstill. Game over.
4-0
Took 2 draws into top 8, against The Mighty Quinn (Woo!, I like seeing that deck place well) and an Aggro Loam.
Top 8:
Play against the Cephalid Breakfast again. Game one I get a cursecatcher out. Second turn I get a mutavault and a silvergill. I sac the cursecatcher to stop something I don't remember and play a silvergill. On his turn he therapys, at which point I have 3 force of will, 1 daze, and 1 sygg in my hand with 2 lands. I let it go since he already played a narcomoeba to sac it for anyway. He names FoW and is very happy. Next turn I swing for 4 with mutavault, and vial in a Sygg. Drawing another card. He plays a nomads en-kor with enough to get around the daze, and passes his turn. I pull a silvergill and vial it in, pulling a land, I swing for 5 and draw my last FoW. He worldly tutors for the cephalid, and get's a nasty surprise by my last FoW. I proceed to win.
SB same as before.
Game 2: I get an early relic out and we have a slow control game until eventually he gets out both creatures. He also apparently sideboarded in abeyance, which a cursecatcher and daze weren't enough to stop. Popping my relic in response since it was game over if I didn't hit anything I grab... well nothing. He proceeds to go off, running some strange variant of cephalid with Karmic Guide, Kiki-Jiki, and some Sky Hussar to make infinite tokens to swing for the win.
Well I never saw his win condition so SB: -1 Reejery -1 Thrasher +2 propaganda.
Game 3: Another good match, but I started out with a really good hand. Vial + standstill. I draw into a relic and wonder if I should have waited on the standstill, but swing away with an angry cursecatcher. Eventually he pops the standstill and drops a creature, which I sadly don't draw a FoW on. I play a relic on my turn, as well as a lord and a silvergill. I still don't draw into the force. He plays both of the creatures he needs, but doesn't get to combo off since I have a relic sitting there. After some neat combat tricks, he mills half of his deck, hoping for enough of the combo to keep alive. Goes down to the last turn, he brainstorms, fetches, brainstorms or something ridiculous like that and doesn't hit the abeyance, so merfolk proceed to bash face.
5-0-2 Into top 4.
Aggro Loam. Game one I open with a relic, which crushes him along with my other merfolk. Funny moment when he plays a terravore and we both laugh because of it's impending doom (nice player to play against)
SB -2 sygg +2 Back to basics, -1 daze, -1 reejery +2 pithing needle (for assault), -1 stifle, -1 wakethrasher +2 Sower of Temptation.
Game 2 I get a relic but keep a hand with just 1 mutavault and no vial. I struggle with 1 land for a while, eventually hit a vial, but can't stop 1 dark confidant with 2 CCrushers.
SB -2 stifle +2 echoing truth (probably a better idea from the beginning, especially against crushers)
Game 3 was a better one, I get some relics going, and then a vial. I charge with cursecatcher, and silvergill. Turn 3 I vial in a reejery, play a reejery, untap vial, play wakethrasher. Left with a vial and LoA in hand. I was dumb to do this, overextending since I could have won with less than this number out. He just so happens to have the burning wish, and do it for 3, leaving me with nothing but a vial and himself at 10 life, 1 land and 1 mox. I rip a wakethrasher (Thank God!!! since vial was at 3, leaving LoA behind) and bash for 2, then 2, then 2, then I draw a land and play the vial. BTW, everyone should make sure they know to tap vial regardless of playing things. First of all it draws out stifles sometimes, 2nd it charges wakethrasher. I win the game with him holding a pyroclasm (but not enough mana from cycling lands to grab it to be able to cast it).
Now I'm in top 2, and we agree that I will take the playset of Goyfs and he'll have the 2 trops + 2 savannahs.
So, overall this deck is ridiculously good against anything running islands, as well as combo decks. I was lucky enough to avoid the burn and goyf sligh since those are almost auto loss, and I would say aggro loam and rock are just very slightly favorable with relic of progenitus.
Relic is the VIP of this deck, and I was never unhappy to see it.
Just for whoever's interested, the top 8 were:
1&2 Merfolk & a different Aggro Loam
3&4 Aggro Loam and an odd Faerie fish deck with goyfs
5-8 Aggro Loam, white thresh, Mighty Quinn, Cephalid Breakfast
Sound like you did pretty well, thanks for the report and sharing deck list.
Where was the tournament?, when was it conducted?
I'm assuming as you said you just played in it so it was recent. it was a 40 some man tournament and you won two other tournaments at 25 - 35 man tourney's also with Merfolk deck recently. trying to matchup the data and find other lists from these events.
Think i found it.
Thank you very much for your report and congrats to your finish.
You insist on using Sygg, but I noticed that you sided him out every single match. How many cards does one realistically draw of him? Isn't there really not a single other card that would fit the MD better?
Conan, what is best in life? - To crush your enemies, see them driven before you... and to hear the lamentation of their women!
The other 2 smaller tournaments were just local tournaments and are not going to be online. The one I just won (drew into the win I guess) was from the Monster Den, and I have no idea if it will have my list or not, but I posted it so I don't understand what you're saying. It was today though.
What I said was he's the weakest point, but I won't replace him with anything other than a merfolk (since we need to keep the merfolk count at least at 20). Just because you always sideboard a card doesn't mean it's bad either, it just means it's marginally okay against everything, and later you want your sideboard deck-hosing cards.
I also mentioned that I hate tidal warrior and don't think it is worth playing, but really, neither of them are. I just like how Sygg sometimes draws the extra cards. I have almost thought of using Sygg, River Guide and splashing white since it would help against sligh matchups, but mono-blue has served me very well so far.
Congrats Phoenix Ignition for the result, I'll test your list and see how it performs. Are you sure that daze in 3x is good? I found it to be incredible in a deck packing huge mana denial AND cursecather, so I'm not convinced about that quantity. Also, i noticed that several$ times you named wake thrasher as the card which managed to make great damages to oppo. DOn't you think that he could deserve a third slot , eventually cutting 1 sygg and place it as a 1-of?
You also say that burn and goyf slighs are almost auto-losses. Well, goyf sligh is surely bad, but burn isn't that difficult, to me. Why don't run Divert in sideboard then, to try arginating those matchups (along with theRock and Boros, which aren't that favorable)? I don't see Sower of Temptations as that useful, if you'd like to deal with big creatures (aggro loam's ones) you already have relic and echoing truths in side, sower is't that needed. Well, at least i think so, you're free to say no, but try divert, really, it could be useful.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I'm sure that I like 3xDaze but I feel like that is more of a personal choice. I figure running 3 relics is enough cantripping to make up for the lack of 1 daze and 1 land (although I think 19 is pretty good since I only mulliganed once or twice, and landscrew only happened when I consciously decided that keeping a colorless land + vial/relic was worth it). I don't think it's in our best interest to run 4 though, since we really can't waste draws on dazes late game. The saying "if people play around the daze, it has done its job" is only valid if stalling them is going to put us in a better position, but a lot of times when I'm running out of steam hoping for a top deck I wish for anything other than a daze/vial, but hit them. Cutting 1 hasn't really affected me yet.
As for removing a Sygg for a thrasher, maybe moving up to 3 would be good, but I'll have to test it. It just seems like in too many cases people can fire/ice or mogg fanatic him, but I know you know the reasons, so I guess I'll playtest him more.
Divert looks good, I actually only traded for them yesterday and didn't have them before. I probably will put them in, but it only stops 1 spell against goyf sligh, and I've already playtested throwing in a bunch of hydroblast effects which didn't at all swing the outcome of the game, especially since they sideboard in just as many pyroblast effects. The only luck I've had is with Counterbalance/Top, which takes up at least 6 sideboard slots. I'm also thinking of throwing 2 Sensei's Divining tops in the main deck, even though we have no shuffle effects, to both take out sygg and accommodate an easier sideboard for sligh, but without the shuffle it isn't going to be worth it.
If you want a 1-1 Merfolk swap for Sygg, add the 4th Mutavault. It's way better than Sygg. On that note, why do you have 3 Mutas and 4 Wasteland? Mutavault wins games, Wasteland doesn't. Muta + Standstill can spell game over, Wasteland + Standstill can't.
I think Sygg sucks, too, as it does nothing by itself, it needs other dudes in play to be good. It's also a horrible topdeck like Daze. I'd go as far as to say Tidal Warrior is better than Sygg.
"Wake Thrasher can be burned/StP'd" isn't a strong enough argument not to optimize Wake Thrasher. When removed, it's always going to be just 1-for-1. If you're worried about Mogg Fanatic, that's why you have 7-8 Lords to prevent Mogg Fanatic from pinging Wake Thrasher.
On the contrary, wasteland wins me many games. I would say 15% of the games I win are due to the mana denial strategy that merfolk can take, stifling and wastelanding to keep enough tempo to win. While wastelands don't end the game, their mana denial has. Mutavaults are no good if the opponent has plenty of life and a creature out. If a muta gets chump blocked you lose both a creature and a land, so tempo goes very much in favor of the opponent. Under standstill, you can win with a mutavault, yes, but that's only if the opponent has a 1/1 or no creatures. These cases are where I drop a standstill anyway, since you can take 1 or 0 damage a turn and wait to top deck into 1 of 3 mutavaults. I use this play all of the time, and it always ends in the opponent cracking the standstill.
While I agree he is not the most optimal card for this spot, swinging with a cursecatcher and a mutavault to draw an extra card is huge. I have done this many times as well, and as I would run 6 Silvergill Adepts if I could, this guy is the closest thing to extra card advantage I could find.
I have however now replaced him with Whirlpool Rider, and I think WR is probably one of the best choices out there. I never play all my islands or vials if I already have plenty out, both to fool the opponent into thinking I have a force, and because the vials could all get EE'd or deeded. Now, later on in the game when I have all of these saved up, I drop in a whirlpool rider and draw into good cards. Also, it's amazing after they crack your standstill and you're looking for a Force, to vial him in and draw however many cards that was.
A 1 mana Mogg Fanatic for a 3 mana Wake Thrasher is not acceptable. Sure, you can say 1 for 1, but you can say that about thoughtseize as well, and we all know thoughtseize is a bomb. Test the deck out vs. goyf sligh a few times and you'll find that 8 lords aren't enough to turn a wakethrasher into a 2/2. I've never had a lord stick for more than a turn. This is another case where mutavault sucks, as losing tempo to any burn deck is usually going to end in a loss.
This deck is that good and I am glad that people are starting to see it. While I have not played against templar goblins I am convinced it is better than old goblins!
I feel that Wakethrasher is excellent but I can't decide if you need 4 or not. I played against a list which was very much analogous to old goblins with 4 port and 4 wasteland and in that list Wakethrasher was insane.
Have you never had problems with Standstill taking tempo out of the game, hurting your tempo cards (Stifle, Daze, Cursecatcher, Vial) and overall mana denial strategy ? Playing against that deck and against Dreadstill, I've noticed that waiting a few turns and then cracking Standstill DOES give you cards, but the overall advantage isn't much because some of them will most likely be useless or not very good. I'm not sure +2 CA for two mana, as nice as that is, is worth letting your opponent catch up on tempo. And the deck IS based on tempo very much, you won't win a game where you trade your cards 1-for-1 against your opponents' cards over a longer time, because all of your threats except Thrasher look stupid on their own.
Also, Whirlpool Rider looks at least interesting, like a worse Adept (and that sounds like a good thing).
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
I have never had problems with standstill taking away tempo from me, since you really get to choose when you play it. The thing is, usually you drop a vial or your threats before the standstill, and by the time you get the standstill down, all you have in your hand is counterspells or stifles. By that time you already ran out of tempo and are just surfing on the wave of your creatures in play. If I am using the mana-denial strategy, I will only play the standstill after I have at least 2 threats on board. In this case, it's almost always a good idea, because even with mana denial, all the opponent needs is 1 land to swords to plowshares your guys, and stall until they drop a threat.
I've never had a problem with standstills, except for sometimes, as you said, it doesn't draw what you want. Usually the turns of stalling that it provides where the opponent does nothing are enough to draw into things you want, as well as do enough damage to bring them very close to death.
Whirlpool riders are winning me games that I otherwise wouldn't. The accumulation of islands and vials in my hand is now just fuel for when I do hit one. I'm almost thinking of taking out 1 of something else to have 3 of them in the deck. It also lets you free mulligan into sideboard cards if that is the case.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote