[OLD] UGw Threshold

[aTn]

Thanks Xeen, the quote answers most of my concerns.

I'm still a bit scared of the fact that 50% of the lands are fetchlands; Stifle might have good chances of screwing you (e.g. when playing vs Dreadstill).

I'll do some testing with Der's list and see where it goes.

[Omega]

I think, being old school, I would never play below 17 lands and 4 basics :
2 island, 1 forest, 1 plain. Mana denial is too intense

[Omega]

finished top2 split today.

AFter reading the forums this morning, just before the tournament, I gave another chance to the pithing needle (they were removed from the MD for some reasons). I really think they fit in my metagame. Against ITF, being able to shut down their pernicious deed is huge. Against landstill, no need to say that needle can shut down some of their removal or lands.

The single Mystic Enforcer was of no use today. I think he costs too much to be played. Especially for a 17lands decks when facing mana denial


I tested also a single Trinket MAge. The mage was surprisingly good (i have a toolbox of 1 ee, 2 needle and 3 sensei). It can dodge CB and get the perfect cb destroyer : EE! Plus, you have 1 creature on the table.


I had a lot of problem against elf survival. Any strategy against this deck? I felt that a lot of cards of his deck were bomb. First, do you counter the elf ringleader (reveal top 4 cards of library, put all elves into hand)? How about the death touch elves that destroy tarmogoyfs? Are pithing needle useful in this match (imperous perfect?, survival?) Are EE too slow?



Robert

[Elf_Ascetic]

Ok, give me some thoughts about Path to Exile.

CC: W
Instant Conflux Uncommon
Remove target creature from the game. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put it into play tapped, then shuffle his or her library.

[Jaiminho]

Ok, give me some thoughts about Path to Exile.

CC: W
Instant Conflux Uncommon
Remove target creature from the game. Its controller may search his or her library for a basic land card, put it into play tapped, then shuffle his or her library.

There's 3 pages worth of thoughts here.

[Omega]

but to sum up : it will probably be crap in legacy. Some people are talking about dedicated control deck... Landstill runs 4 STP, 4+ Deed/EE/wrath/Humility ; it doesn't need 4 more bad STP that has a huge drawback of giving an opponent a land... The only time where STE can be better than STP is in the late game, where lands don't matter anymore.
Perhaps a split 4STP 2STE would be viable, but i dont see STE as a 4of in any deck. Drawback, i will repeat, is just too huge in the early game.

Of course, actual testing will determine the viability of this card..

Robert

oh. I first said STE will rock T2 and Extended. I am not too sure now. The land can give some deck quite a boost.

[mackaber]

I had a lot of problem against elf survival. Any strategy against this deck? I felt that a lot of cards of his deck were bomb. First, do you counter the elf ringleader (reveal top 4 cards of library, put all elves into hand)? How about the death touch elves that destroy tarmogoyfs? Are pithing needle useful in this match (imperous perfect?, survival?) Are EE too slow?

Dunno. Needle always seemed really good against survival decs. Once you have that handled try getting CB down and counter/remove the card advantage spells/dudes. Alternatively get an early goyf apply pressure and counter his key spells. I haven't played this MU too often but me thinks it's sort of like Goblins. If he get's his engine going you lose, otherwise you should be fine. When trying to determine which creatures to kill with your removal you have to ask yourself the age old question: Who's the beatdown!

[Bongo]

General question: What are your boarding plans against the mirror and other blue-based decks?

I'm especially interested in the cards you take OUT.

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

General question: What are your boarding plans against the mirror and other blue-based decks?

I'm especially interested in the cards you take OUT.

It really depends what the other deck is.

Landstill is just a tough Matchup for Threshold, but I would reccommend Tormad's Crypts and Back to Basic.

If it's Team America, Definately Back to Basics and Submerge (I have Suberge in my sideboard. I think it is an amazing card in my meta).

UGR Thresh, I would throw in Crypts and Explosives, and keep as many creatures as possible.

UGB Thresh I would probably go th same route as against red. They get confidant, which you need to stop. asap.

What to take out depends on what you're running. I seem to side out 3 Counterspells a lot, and some other random's.

[Brushwagg]

General question: What are your boarding plans against the mirror and other blue-based decks?

I'm especially interested in the cards you take OUT.

I'm looking forward to Path to Exile. Not really for the Mirror, that comes down to Counterbalance wars. This card should give us a good bump in the aggro match where white lacks big time. Up to eight STPs and E.E. should be good.

As far as the cards you take out, that depends on the MD. Like I play Krsan Grip main, because of my meta, so if I come up aganist a deck where it would become useful I would bring them for the Grips (ie weakest card in a given match).

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

I am possibly going to the big Legacy event in Chicago and i was thinking about running this deck. I used to run it like a year ago religiously, but i kinda haven't since then.

What do you think a good list incorporating Countertop would be for this event of just tier one decks?

Thanks.

[Omega]

Me and aTn took 1st and second place at last local tournament with a list close to the one used by Adan

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22376

For me, i played 17 lands instead of 16.
-1 portent
-1 back to basic
+1 tropical island
+1 oblivion ring

The list is solid, although the single Mystic enforcer is questionable sometime.
I also played 61 cards. The 61 was an Engineered explosives.

Robert

[b4r0n]

General question: What are your boarding plans against the mirror and other blue-based decks?

I'm especially interested in the cards you take OUT.

It really depends on your list and their list. Generally speaking though, you want bring in Grips for enemy Counterbalances (dur). Besides that, additional hate is up to you. I run Trygon Predators (for the mirror and Dreadstill) and Back to Basics (for Landstill), so those come in. Dazes tend to be the first cards I board out for those matchups.

So:

Mirror: -2 Daze (4 total), -1 Ponder, -2 Pithing Needle, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Trygon Predator
Dreadstill: -2 Daze, -1 Ponder, -2 Mystic Enforcer, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Trygon Predator
Landstill: -4 Daze, -2 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Krosan Grip, +3 Back to Basics (number of Grips/Swords can fluctuate depending on whether they run Humilities versus Goyfs, etc.)

I haven't played enough Thresh versus Team America to know how best to sideboard. Back to Basics seems like it'd be pretty good, so maybe those would come in over Predicts.

[Omega]

Against TA, i dont really SB anything... your MD is already designed against him. Back to basic can be useful, but usually, hitting 3 mana is extremely hard

The only possibly dead cards are Oblivion ring and EE from the MD. Mystic can be intense to play too, but I think that its ability to end the game (and being immune to all of TA threat) is worth the risk of running a dead card

Robert

[Adan]

Against TA, i dont really SB anything... your MD is already designed against him. Back to basic can be useful, but usually, hitting 3 mana is extremely hard

Jotun Grunt is HUGE against TA. Just by the way. With Jotun Grunt, you can re-fetch destroyed Basiclands for example, keep their Goyfs low and he also makes it hard to cast Tombstalker. But protect him from Snuff Outs!

[_erbs_]

Hello all...
This is my first attempt in running a semi-threshold deck, i want to hear out your comments and suggestions on the build im planning.

Thanks in advance.

LANDS
3 tropical island
3 tundra
3 savannah
3 windswept heath
3 flooded strand
1 forest
1 island
1 plains
1 accademy ruins
19

CREATURES
4 tarmogyf
1 phyrexian dreadnought
2 trinket mage
4 nimble mongoose
11

SPELLS
4 force of will
3 daze
2 spell snare
4 swords to plowshares
3 brainstorm
3 ponder
19

UTILITIES
1 pithing needle
1 engineered explosives
3 counterbalance
2 sensei's divinning top
4 stifle
11

[Eldamion]

@Adan:

Here in Berlin we have a different metagame then you in western germany.
What would you change when a meta have more blue fish/fairie decks and landstill instead of Loam.

Is UGr better in that kind meta as Ugw, if so, with or without swans und cb?

I tested Venilion Clique a lot in the last time, and I think it is amazing, specilly when you run counterbalance and be short on 3cc. 3/1 flash flying in blue can't be bad.

[Maveric78f]

Hi all,

First, I want to precise that my text is not referring to erbs's list which is more than strange.

I've never played extensively threshold decks, but as every legacy player, I've played a lot (and won a lot) against. Actually, I always had some difficulties to understand the use of some cards, and when I wanted to build U based fish, I've always come to some equivalent, that won the threshold MU. As I don't pretend to invent a better deck than threshold, I'd like to understand the use of some cards.

1/ 8+ cantrips (usually something like 4 BS, 4 ponder and 3 tops). Aren't you tired at some point to need to spend U at each turn to find a business card ? I mean that you probably make card quality, but you lose a lot on tempo, and as aggro-control is a tempo deck, I'm really not fond of it. Personnally, I play 4 BS, because this card is sometimes equivalent to a draw3. When I play countertop, I also play 3 tops. When I play an aggro-control deck with no graveyard requirement (in merfolk for instance), I play 3/4*relic, which can be viewed as a cantrip with no library manipulation. But I never exceed the count of 8.
2/ Counterbalance + spellsnare : isn't it redundant ? Divert/disrupt/annul/counterspell or whatever depending on your metagame, but once counterbalance is in play, spellsnare is almost a deadcard.
3/ Daze : it depends on the threshold variant, but often threshold does not play any mana denial (no stifle, no wasteland), and in this case it is far too easy to play around daze. At best, you should take advantage of the fact that everybody will think that you are playing daze and will always keep 1 mana open, but not play daze.
4/ Mongoose : don't you feel that this card is awful now ? It's smaller than any other creature and gets wrecked by too many things (chalice/counterbalance/EE/jotun/relic/...).
5/ Removals : the burn spells of Ugr, Stp in Ugw, smother in Ubg. Aren't you supposed to play the biggest creature ever printed, in the name of tarmogoyf ? Aren't there better answer answer to a creature than 1for1 ?

Reducing the cantrips count frees 4 slots, reducing the counterspell part frees 4/6 slots, removing the mongeese frees 4 slots and removing the removals frees 4 slots at least once more. Finally you've got plenty of free space for what you want.

In our metagame with a lot of combo, and a lot of combo hate (read counterbalance and chalice), I believe that aether vial is great. In the same idea, I propose to play utility creatures : Dark Confidant, Jotun Grunt, Trygon Predator, Meddling mage.

My current build of goodstuff blue aggrocontrol deck is the following:

Mana base : 22
4*polluted
4*flooded
1*island
3*tropical
3*tundra
3*underground sea
4*vial

Creatures :18
4*Tarmogoyf
4*Meddling Mage
4*Dark Confidant
3*Trygon Predator
3*Jotun Grunt

Cantrips :
4*Brainstorm 7
3*Sensei's Divining Top

Permission : 7
4*Force of Will
3*Counterbalance

Open slots : 6 (at least 2 blue cards among them, could be 2 jitte, 2 Shadowmage Infiltrator, +1 top, +1 counterbalance)

The good thing about accumulating creatures is that your opponent will probably run out or creature removal at some point. It's even better when you notice that vial enables you to dodge counterspells.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

In Threshold its all about find the right cards against your opponent disrupt him, then lay down a big undercosted fatty and try to win with it. And you do all that stuff in the first 3 turns.

Cantrips are needed to build up the right hand. (And to find all of your 4 Goyfs^^)
Counterbalance is to gain control of the game.
Daze and Fow are here to disrupt the game of your oponent and to fill up the graveyard (daze a jitte and tarmogoyf gets huge)
Mongoose is simply a cheap beater, some builds run other undercosted things like Tombstalker, if we could run 8 tarmos we would!
Removals: Straight and cheap awnsers to threats to stay alive in this format!

As you said there are some basic numbers:
Cantrips 8-12
Counters 8-10
Beaters 8-12
lands 18-20
Removals 4-6
Utility 2-6 (krosan grip, needle and stuff)

Counterbalance could count as counter or utility, same thing for top witch is utility or cantrip

Those numbers have proven well but yes you could adjust them for personal preference and the metagame you play. And dont do thinks like free up 4 removal slots, because you need at least 4 cheap removal!

[aTn]

Eh... ok, moving back to the discussion about UGW-Threshold... I've been playing Der and Adan's list (with -1 Portent, +1 Tropical Island) for about a month now but I haven't had the chance to test a lot against Team America (TA) or Team Europe (TE http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22402), which is more present than TA in my meta.

For those who aren't aware (and don't like clicking on links), the basic TE maindeck is obtained from TA by the following modifications:-4 Sinkhole, -1 Snuff Out, -2 non-basic lands, + 3 Spell Snare, + 2 EE, + 1 Island, +1 Swamp.

@Adan and anyone else with relevant match-up experience against (preferably) TE or TA: What are your general strategies pre and post board ?

I've found that Back to Basics is a bit too slow to set up against TE (which can recover from it or just disregard it and still win); I therefore side B2B out. It's obviously good against TA (they don't play basic lands), but is it even that efficient considering their clock is rather fast (i.e. they might set up their plan before you can resolve B2B) ?