For the record, it actually makes a difference here if your moon is a Blood Moon or a Magus, because a Thoughtseize on a non-Chalice play is much more devastating to your hand if your only threat is the Rakdos Pit Dragon. On the flip side, if you have a Magus, you can drop it as your second play after the Chalice-1 and have it STP protected, which will make up for the fact that you may take awhile to drop your RPD.
That said, I agree with Phantom and would lead Mountain, Go. Your hand isn't strong enough to risk leading with the City.
I disagree with the second play, though. Leading Mountain, Go here gives you options based on what your first draw is and what your opponent plays. Your turn two play will most likely either be a Trinisphere timewalk or the Moon, and at some point you'll get your Chalice for 1 down before emptying your hand and getting your Dragon on the board.
It's also an option to make your turn two play Mountain, Chalice-1, if you don't draw a mana source and see no indication of a possible Daze on your Chalice. The plan at this point is to protect your manabase and try to get your Dragon down before your Moon, to make sure you hit a fourth source.
Originally Posted by majikal
It can be, but turn one Sloggers and Pit Dragons are rare. However, you do have a slightly higher chance of doing something turn one in Dragon Stompy.
Like Faerie Stompy, you have the option of being either aggro or prison, depending on the matchup. Dragon Stompy is much better at playing the prison role due to moons and Trinisphere. The eight moons are Dragon Stompy's biggest strength, and you can beat a large portion of the format by simply resolving a moon. Often, the correct play is to mull until you find a turn one moon, such as vs Landstill and ITF. Without mulling, your odds of a turn one moon are 33% on the play and 50% on the draw, so this shouldn't be too hard.
Not usually. Our creatures tend to be big enough to win ground wars, and Jitte and Slogger are great at removing chump blockers. Worst case scenario, one hit from a hellbent RPD does the job. Pyroclasm and Pyrokinesis in the board are a huge help too.
Dragon Stompy is more all-in than Faerie Stompy, as you will often find yourself dumping 4-5 cards out of your hand turn one vs an unknown opponent and praying they don't have a Fow/StP. Yes, we do rely on Chalice and moons to stop removal. Running a SoFI or SoLS over a Jitte is a metagame call or a personal preference.
And don't let anyone tell you you can't run SoFI because of hellbent. There are reasons not to run the card, but that's a small one.
It's more a matter of metagame, but Mauler is usually the best option. Akroma is only good in a high Landstill metagame, Sulfur is best in a meta with a lot of Decree of Justice tokens and Cephalid-whatever decks. It can also act as pseudo-removal with its surprise factor. But Mauler scares the piss out of people, and they often build their gameplan around killing it as soon as possible, leaving less removal for your Sloggers and RPDs. Mauler gets big fast if left unanswered. That he's a goblin also helps in the goblin match.
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
So, I'm just wondering what the hell happened with this deck.
A deck that shares some similarities with this has been doing well in the local metagame recently. I don't think it's the exact same build, but it runs Tombs, Cities, Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon, and a lot of other similar cards.
Which begs the question why no one is talking about the deck here. The metagame is filled with more nonbasics than ever before in the history of magic.
Is there some secret tech going around to finally make this deck more consistent or something?
Um, not that I know of. I am running Dragon Stompy now, and the only "secret tech" that I use that the majority of people on these forums disagrees with is using Sulfur Elemental instead of Taurean Mauler. To me, being able to land a cheap, not counterable jitte carrier in a meta full of counterspells is important.
Is there a mostly agreed-on optimized list for this deck? Or, is there a mostly agreed-on core of cards?
Proud member of team theVault.
Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards.
It makes them soggy and hard to light.
The standard 'core' would be;
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
2+ Arc-Slogger
2+ Umezawa's Jitte
4 Magus of the Moon
2+ Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
That leaves 10 cards to be used for a few more threats [Taurean Mauler, Sulpher Elemental], more Moon, more Jitte, or Trinispheres.
No, the standard core is 4 Arc Sloggers. Period.
Basically, Dragon Stompy should look like this:
The Core 54:
10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Blood Moon
2 Umezawa's Jitte
And the adjustable other six is some combination of:
Up to 4 Taurean Mauler/Sulfur Elemental/Whatever Threat They Might Print That's Better Than These
Up to 4 Trinisphere (I personally leave all four in the board.)
Up to 2 Blood Moon (And any you don't maindeck should be in the board.)
Up to 2 Umezawa's Jitte (See above.)
With all four trini in your board what do you put in place maindecked? I run 3 trini main, I feel the odds of them coming down on turn 1 game 1 and either slowing them down or making your turn 2 threat uncounterable gives them a spot maindecked. Although there always is a ton of blue control in my area
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
It's inconsistency could repel players and there are other decks that can use Blood Moon, like some versions of Thresh. It may be seeing less top 8's due to lack of players. As to discussion, what's there to discuss? Nothing worth playing has been printed since Mauler.I know that, but I also know many people who disagree. It's not quite a standard if not everyone agrees, but it really doesn't matter.
Has anyone looked at Deus of Calamity? Turn one coupled by a turn two Umezawa's Jitte could be devastating. He's fairly large too, allowing him to go at it with Tarmogoyf. I wouldn't replace Arc-Slogger with him, but I might tinker with other slots and see.
he costs RRRRR makes him only possible to cast with seething song.
Deus cost RRRRR. That's unbearable. I've done some experimenting with Demigod, it can almost never be cast. I've even tried it with more mana Rituals and it almost never landed.
24 Threats, 26 Mana, 4 Chalice, 3 Blood Moon, 3 Jitte.
It's a standard if most everyone agrees or everyone with a brain agrees. There are people who don't run Goblin Piledriver in Goblins (And a few credible arguments for doing so, so as not to call everyone who does this stupid), but Goblin Piledriver's still considered a staple. There hasn't been a reason not to run four Arc Sloggers since Gathan Raiders got printed.
Okay, rule #1 of Dragon Stompy? Nothing that doesn't costbesides Dragon and Slogger. And if you don't want to go that far, at least nothing with :R::R: in it besides Dragon and Slogger, and nothing that can't spend the mana off Ancient Tomb. Deus of Calamity followed by a turn two Jitte would be awesome, yes, but so's a turn one Slogger. And you aren't required to catch a Seething Song to play Slogger.
Greetings folks! A nice year to everyone. This is my 1st post on this great Legacy site.So I thank everyone who contributed to its creation and everyone who runs it -keep up the good work guys! And of course the same goes for Phantom, Tacosnape and all the others who wrote good information, tested, reported their matches and made good questions like Mayk0l's. Sharing your well-tested and therefore justified thoughts really makes it a ton easier to distinguish roster-building theories from the value of actual PLAYING XP. Especially for players like me who are quite new to Legacy and competitive rosters and generally do not play ALL that often MtG.
Many a card or trick will just "seem" great in the beginning, while it's not(e.g. Covetous) -and the opposite (like Slogger).
So I feel I can pilot the deck a lot better after finishing today all 87 pages..and also having taken part in my first,relatively small tournament :
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21622 . I think I can post now and say something that hasn't been said perhaps..
I have been saving my favorite pages of the thread, so if Phantom, Taco, or admins feel it's time to start it from the beginning, cut it short (like Solidarity's) or make some Contents Table, I can help by pointing the most important parts. But with incoming exams and the one-year compulsory military service here in Hellas awaiting me in about a month, I may be missing days or weeks from the thread.
Where should I start from? From the fact that Blood Moon costs $2,5 and it wrecks some of the most expensive cards to buy in MtG Legacy! Incredible.Always wanted to use it and was really happy when I told a friend that I wanted to make a deck with Blood Moon, Chalice (and counterspells perhaps), and he said it's already established.
This last page was very useful containing an up-to-date core list. When I play MtG, WH40000 or anything I try to make a roster that is equally good against all odds.Even if it is 50/50 favored. I prefer that to a 90/10 for most of the cases -while there is still an annoying few games which (possibly won't steal us 1st place in a tournament,but) will be more or less a semi auto-loss. I just can't "digest" the idea that we win some killer decks 90% with an early moon, but we can't do much about Enchantress (some complain also about FS, AggroLoam, Red Threshold or random decks). 50/50's are more challenging and -aside luck- it depends mostly on the player to win the game. I also understand that this is a forum for competitive plays and my ideas perhaps do not seem to connect fully with that. (It is just that I hate being powerful against the 7 out of 10 players, playing a retarded game, and being a total weakling in front of the other 3. I -like- challenge.) Anyway.
Bad match-ups should be:
And also:
A little bit exaggerated perhaps, because we have acceleration even if our locks don't work, but I understand you on the other 50% of the times.
POX was also mentioned somewhere as unfavored, by Clark Kant and Tacosnape. (That would include Dead-Guy Ale style too?)
Now may I suggest some -perhaps not good solutions- that will not ruin our deck and give our bad match-ups maybe a better chance of winning. Cards that have been brought here but not examined thoroughly.. Trying to fix my list I ended up like this:
-----------------------------------
MAIN
-----------------------------------
9 Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Mountain[CS] (dragon in the pic:))
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
-----------------------------18
3 Blood Moon
------------------------------3 [+1]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Sword of Light and Shadow / or +1 Blood Moon (or +1 Akroma, Angel of Fury?)
1 Sword of Fire and Ice / or
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-----------------------------11 [-1]
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury / Sulfur Elemental / 1 Arc-Slogger
3 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Taurean Mauler (I think it must be 4 of them or none guys..)
-----------------------------24
4 Seething Song
------------------------------4
-----------------------------------
SIDE
-----------------------------------
3 Pithing Needle (don't bite)
1 Shattering Spree or +1 Pithing Needle
3 Pyrokinesis
1 Fire Ants / Scalding Salamander (for Enchantress,Bobs,etc..Taco's idea) or +1 Pyrokinesis
3 Trinisphere
1 Boil (in response to their spell while they're tapped) or +1 Trinisphere (or +1 more Pithing Needle:))
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Anarchy (MOST important alternative card suggested in the forum, in my opinion)
1 An-Zerrin Ruins (for creature types and Loam -naming Lhurgoyf means 8 out!)
-----------------------------15
OUT
--------------------------------------X!
1 Mountain Yeti
1 Powder Keg
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Pyroblast ?
----------------------------------------
And let me give my 2 cents about each one:
Taurean Mauler: Many have argued/consented about him. It was said that he's better than Sulfur Elemental in 80% of the match-up's. I will add that he is a great answer to Elvish champion in Elf Aggro (none wants a +1/+1 Mauler Forestwalking you to death). The same goes for Lord of Atlantis in the new Merfolk aggro. That must be an interesting deck.
I also want to say that I saw many guys, especially in the past running only 2-3. Isn't that a huge mistake? If you want to run 2 of sth that would be Sulfur of Akroma.
It is a card that I imagine is useful against junk where the trend is probably the mindless hit with many creatures against us(?)
Akroma: I like her as a 1-of, so that she will come in lategame more possibly. Being a red one means Mox-imprinting if she is undesired early -and of course Raider-pitching. And the bluff part is always fun. Even if only 1 the bluff IS online. Ready to hit at the most random moment. Which, I don't know, could be a drawback for us at the same time. But I strongly believe that Akroma x1 maximizes her utility. Not as a 2-of and more. And against Landstill or junk I think she is good. The game extends in both cases, no?
Sulfur Elemental: Now this guy could be played as a 25th threat in my humble opinion.It's equally useful as an early one or as a topdecked one. For those that are running him, don't tell me that you are counting on two of them to hit play so that whiteys get the -2.
Sulfur has flash.Opponents may fear it a bit because of surprise blocking. In a build with 24-26 threats: if it was run as a 1-of (WITH 4 maulers) could he serve as a factor for the opponent to play more conservatively? (IF the one came suddenly probably another could follow?) I like puzzling the opponent. And if someone knows a little bit of DS builds maybe he'll say: Hmm, he probably plays 2-4 sulfurs..
I certainly hope I'm not talking mambo-jambo here. All the other creatures are 4-ofs I guess. I favored 3 Sloggers, but in the previous posts I see that that is kinda out of the question. Apparently for some good reason that I do not fully realise yet, and that would be the 1st or second turn gg. However I see him in many cases that I do not want. Against a friend of mine's Dead-Guy Ale I think he is so uncastable, removable, and against counterspells they get the 1 for two (S.Song & Slogger).
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but he also ruins Hellbent sometimes. And I know that 4 of them are more loved than hated, but I am trying to think of something that would reduce the decks negatives. Not create positives WITH lesser negatives.
Now some talk about Jitte. Yes it IS cool, and it does remove its twin. But multiples are a bad plenty of times. And since Faerie Stompy is a bad MU & since SoFI also helps in Loam, should't we run the 1 Sword for help in those two MUs? Again, it has been said that Jitte purges a lot of randomness, but the Sword gives +2/+2 at once, draws and damages which would be good against random decks as well, don't you think? And the one SoFI wouldn't be ruining hellbent that easily..
If I was about to propose a single Sword of Light and Shadow maidecked as well maybe someone would say: Why the heck doesn't that guy play Singleton?
I don't know if the SoLS would be so good after a lot of testing in DS, as it is in FS..But I could see it replacing the 3rd Sideboard Jitte for all those who don't like it.After all it could be replacing the other Sword if the enemy was B or W, or the Jitte if you wanted 2 equipments that both give you +2/+2 & abilities & protection. Or you could run SoFI in the SB. In a build with 4 Sulfur Elementals and possibly 1 Akroma, maybe the Swords rock, and maybe we neglect that because Mauler is the main choice now. Has anyone thoughts on this?
Sideboard suggestions:
I really like Anarchy. One of the thing I hated when I was running my old counter-burn-4ensnaringbridge-isochron-RANDOM Sparkler-like deck is that while blue and red are my favorite colors, they both can't deal with enchantments well. And White is just so annoying with his enchantments. Check out Phantom's Gargangel Stompy. (No offence mate:) It seems great!) Karmic Justice, Solitary Confinement, Worship, Pariah, blaaahhblaaah...okayy no one plays SOME of these. But others ARE played. Versus Enchantress the game stalls, and as Taco noted: Anarchy can let you get past that last damage. It also wrecks mono-white (mo-MO-MONSTER-KILL!). Many situations in which it is maybe your best alternative. I would gladly get 1 Tormod's Crypt out for Anarchy.
About Crypt.. Judging from all your posts at various pages, it seems that Crypt isn't as good as 4 Trinispheres against Ichorid, and generally TC is the weak link in the SB. So maybe it should be run as 2-max. I don't think we lose at all from that, do we? If it's good against Loam, try playing SoFI.
The chat about An-Zerrin Ruins..why did we leave it? Who has tested it before dropping it? And don't tell me it doesn't fit the curve..Yeti was fitting well all of a sudden when it was tested with 4 Sloggers and 4 RPD's in, right?:p There's not much space for Ruins in your 15, but if 1 copy hits game 2 then you can name Lhurgoyf in Loam,and tap all Terravores and Tarmogoyfs after the attack. I am not claiming to be an awesome player and I think that most players in the forum are more experienced than me. It's just that some cards never got discussed at all..or almost that.
My general point is that there are some cards that come as 4 of's and are terrific. However, those 4's are the same, so they do the same. So if we tried a better sideboard mix, I think that many things would be a little better, with no cost. Take for example the 4 Needles. First of all they are expensive, and it frustrates me that I have to give 40$+ for 4 nice paper cards.. But that's sth else
What do they do? They ruin activated abilities. Which is so f__ versatile. But I can't conceive yet of a deck that can run Shattering Spree, needs it and does not run it. Why not run 3 Needles and 1 Shattering spree against Vedalken shackles? Are they not pretty much the same? Why not 3 needles and Sh.spree against Vial? 3 Needles and 1 Anarchy against Enchantress? Still 4 answer cards as before for the main matchups.We may lose slightly a little strength,or not. And we pack a card against the unfavored that's helping. We can't do anything better anyway in mho. We don't have search cards.
Sorry if I got carried away (87 pages brought many questions to mind.) Tacosnape,did you test those fire ants and they were problematic? I'm so curious. I liked the Salamander first because it attacks + deals 1 dmg, but the other does it in response. Confidants, enchantresses and 1/1 tokens, killed for 2R could be good.
Some more questions if someone has the time to answer...
1) Does anyone know an MtG webpage with mathematical types to estimate possibilities of having a desired card in our first hand, 2nd, etc? I am asking because I read that 8 moons are good on the play against solidarity and its ~6 fetchlands. If we had 7 moons in our 75 would it be a big problem? On the draw would it be a LOT different?
2) Tacosnape: I saw the page1 thought about Boil and I have to ask this: Isn't it much better than other vs. Solidarity or MUC? And what would be the proper moment to hit it against Solidarity so that they wouldn't combo off?
3) Phantom, are you playing with 4 Arc-Sloggers? 1 Akroma MD or SB? Anyone else's opinions?
4) Wouldn't a single pyroblast, be the desperate special tech we need against a locking blue enchantment? Does someone know of any other color non-scrap enchantments that can disable us? Tacosnape said sth about Elephant grass being bad..you think the grass is bad, or you meant the deck running it?
5)If we fix the SB with 4 needles in, I think the "out of the question"4xPyrokinesis would be 3x inevitably:) If not, could Fire Ants be the 4th Pyrokinesis?
6)Finally, if we drop to 2-1 Crypt, we could easily have 4 3spheres MD or SB, but is this overkill or not? Sometimes vs. Ichorid or Combo if you have it by turn 1 you live, if by turn 3 you die..So we play 4 Trinis I guess?
Thank you in advance for reading my long post. I hope it didn't tire you.
Feel free to answer/not to answer as you like, when you like. But have in mind that I ike thinking against a BLIND metagame, where I should be equally prepared for quite everything. Even if that meant losing some favor in my best MU's.. Then again perhaps this isn't the proper deck to think this way??
Keep walkin'
Last edited by 0dysseus; 06-15-2010 at 10:05 PM. Reason: Corrections in order to make the post more readable.
That might have been the longest non-opening post in a deck discussion thread ever. I'll try to hit the points I can.
Point 1. MUC and Red Thresh and aren't as bad as people think. They aren't anywhere in the same league of bad as Faerie Stompy and Enchantress.
Point 2. Merfolk and Elves don't beat Dragon Stompy. Chalice-1 wrecks them both, Pyrokinesis wrecks them both, Arc-Slogger wrecks them both, Jitte wrecks them both.
Point 3. Sword of Light and Shadow doesn't belong in this deck. Nor does Akroma, Angel of Fury. You don't need more than 24 threats (4 each of SSG, Magus, Dragon, Slogger, Gathan, and Mauler). As such, Fire Ants is also a pretty weak choice. And you don't really need any threats of any sort anywhere else in your 75 unless it's a threat that doubles as artifact removal.
Point 4. An-Zerrin Ruins sucks. Seriously. Don't forget that it shuts off your own Taurean Maulers too.
Point 5. What's up with all your random 1-ofs in a deck with no draw and no search capacity? They aren't a big deal. Run Anarchy or don't. Run Shattering Spree or don't. Make sure you've got Pyrokinesis, Pithing Needle, and Trinisphere maxed out in your sideboard, as you'll want these in the most matchups.
I dunno, I had trouble thinking of terrible matchups after Enchantress, Faerie Stompy, and Aggro Loam. How would you round out the top five worst matchups? Quinn? Armageddon Stax? Pox?
"Casual sex, NO Touching/Licking/Sucking/Groping/Fondling/Riding/Tickling/Binding/Quitters/Italians. Play Fast, Be Polite, Have Fun."
Sure as hell sounds like fun.
Decks that run a significant amount of basics lands and do not rely on the 0-, 1-, or 2-converted mana cost slots.
What do you guys think about Spitebellows in the sideboard, mainly against Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker? It can also double as a bridge from below remover. However, I am also thinking about playing Relic of Progitnus instead, because it deals with both of these situations (besides Tombstalker), but doesnt require double red. Will either of these work (in the sideboard)?
Enchantress is the worst by far. Faerie Stompy isn't far behind. Pox isn't great either, but manageable depending on the build.
Armageddon Stax is actually not a bad matchup at all. I don't have an exact record but I know I've won more than I've lost against it, and I've won several games with a finishing reach from Arc-Slogger. Moreso than anything, though, this match will come down to who wins the opening die roll, because it's rare that either deck will steal games going second.
Quinn, no idea. I've never once played against it. I assume it's unfavored but not unwinnable, as there's a lot of Chalice targets and Blood Moon game one at least hurts the draw engine. A fast Scepter-Chant will slaughter you, though. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who knows this matchup better.
The rest of the worst matchups are either jank or fallen into obscurity. Mono Black Control, despite being archaic and rare, is a horrible match for Dragon Stompy, and Train Wreck's not much better. That white Chalice Aggro deck with the maindecked Moats that I think Phantom designed is bad.
The bright side to Dragon Stompy is that you don't really have a horribly unfavored matchup that you'll come across more than once in a tournament. There's a lot of them, but they're all uncommonly played.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here. Flaming is allowed.
I have only playtested one night, and i love the deck, how fast it can be.
BUT! Why wasn't hellbent good in Standard? Cuz why would you wanna _achieve_ having ZERO cards in your hand? (The tezzerator deck could do it in a Pro Tour because the engine of tezzeret and trinket and academy ruins is far better than any DS ever had)
I like the core of 8 lands that give 2 colorless mana.
7-8 Bloodmoon effects kicks any ass.
8 accelants like chrome mox and SSG is great.
the consistency of 8+8+8 is what makes it good.
Chalice and Trinisphere is also in the range of cc 2-4 that locks down the opponent.
Now.... why these subpar random beaters with hellbent that you get out by wasting even more cards as rituals(seething song)?
Isnt' there any other way to seal the deal???
I found myself praying that he had no Fow or StP. It's fine to face opponents with those cards, since then i can just play another creature or bait out counters and denial, but in DS u can't, it's all'in! wasting 2-4 cards on a creature.
Well. That was my 2 cents.
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