@Piceli : ciao bello tutto bene? Ora che ricordo ti avevo chiesto il metagame. Pesci mi affascina, ma a volte non mi convince. Cmq mi trovo meglio con la lista Ug.
I tested U list and I losed a lot of games, but with Ug list I losed not mutch.
Tarmo and trygon are very important for me!!!
I would be happy to, but as it is right now, even with people winning with the list no one thinks it is worth playing. So I would be happy to write up a new primer with all of the new updates and such, but right now the demand for it seems pretty low. Also, I would need your imputs on a sideboard and matchup %s. I have my own data, but it would be much better to throw yours in as well. PM me your sideboard, matchup %s, and how many maindecked relics, thrasher, daze, and open slots you think there should be.Originally Posted by Piceli89
Also on that new list at the 70 person tournament, I'm happy to see people are trusting my advice on using Relic of Progenitus Maindeck.
I really think this has to do with how you're playing the deck. We have had plenty of results, including my own, that testify to how well this deck works as mono blue. Can you tell us what matchups you had troubles against and which ones you were wishing for tarmogoyf and trygon (you play trygon maindeck?). This deck isn't as simple as it seems, and it sure as hell doesn't use the goblins strategy of playing everything while keeping an eye on overextending. If you were using the mana denial deck I posted, it plays much much differently than the mutavault deck.
Also, you can "lose a lot of games" with any deck, which doesn't necessarily say anything about the deck itself. The only decks in my opinion that can win even with a bad player are ones that pack goyf because it doesn't take a genius to know that low-cost big creature turns sideways 4 times and wins game.
Therefore, logically speaking, we can conclude that 80% of the decks are piloted by bad players.
Just joking, but you're right when you say that losing doesn't mean " bad deck ", It may be also because of the player, who doesn't know to fit in every situation on the board on simply hasn't understood what the deck he handles aims for. i'm not saying it's your situation, but often happens this. I am the first to admit that I'm not able to pilot decks which appear to be "simple" as Ichorid, but with merfolks, it's just another story.
And i fully quote the fact that this deck DOESN'T need tarmogoyf to win, too. Splashing green means : tropical island--> wasteland; fetchlands--> stifle; more nonbasics than basics--> Moon effects and B2B hurt you; 4 slots for goyf--> 4 slots lost for something else which , surely, perfectly fitted with the merfolks philosophy.
At this point, if you feel the necessity to put something extern than merfolks, put Dreadnought, at least it's synergic with stifle and doesnt require a 2nd colour. But, surely, it would weaken something else.
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I went 3:4 on the renown Iserlohn tourney in Germany with Merfolks. After a good start 3:1 I went a little bit unlucky loosing at least 2 Matches on the edge of a knife.
Wins were against DragonStompy (easy), NGQ/r (good and hard fight against his red direct damage especially), UB Faeries (one game I lost to an online Jitte which was needled Game 3).
Losses against: GoyfSligh (this is an autoloss, boy I was whacked badly seeing a Game 2 Shusher in action and Counters moldering in my hand), Team Amerika (which I lost to bad draw at least one game. Game 1 although 2 Standstill in a row => just found 5 lands and a Vial, Game 2 went on for a while until I couldn't hold back his Tarmogoyf anymore, my folks got decimated by his spot removal slowly but surely and Merfolks are only strong in multiples against Goyf and Stalker for racing), NGQ/w with Counterbalance/Top (Game 1 went on for a while where I could beat him down quite well but got stuck on 2 Mana and couldnt keep up the pressure, Game 2 he got a Counterbalance online after a Counterwar over it and that was Game), Evagreen (which was really really close. I had him down to 2 Game 3, but a Spotremoval and a Tarmogoyf saved the day for him).
Lessons learned in general: Big guys are a problem if they stall the ground or come in the air. Usually you could win by racing them and pumping your guys... but Spotremoval really is bad for your merfolks because it usually is played on Lord or Rejeerey which in turn makes your guys smaller and allows to block favourably for your opponent. In addition it takes away the chances to race which is your only path to victory against lone, bigger creatures. Merfolks are only strong in multiples and you have to have means it stays this way. Therefore I will definitely play Divert/Misdirection SB next time (maybe even Main 1 or 2 Slots). Against Team America or EvaGreen this could turn the matchup either by bending their discard or their spotremoval against them. And against 5 of the Decks running 4 Goyfs main it is needed to keep the capability to race your opponent.
Lessons learned sideboard choices: BtB helped in just one Game (NQG/r) because the guy was running almost no basics. All other list I played against were prepared for BtB or Moon action and played 3-4 basics land of each colour. Propanganda was not worth the slot. Goblins do not see much play in Europe and the only matchup it could shine is Combo with Empty the Warrens or Bridge from below but is probably to slow as compared to Echoing truth. Needles were good against Jitte in Evagreen and Faeries and Jitte is a must counter otherwise. I probably will rather play a third needle then the lonely Jitte myself next time. Hydroblasts were OK but the Goyfsligh matchup is just so very bad that it didnt matter. Maybe Chill would be slightly better (other choices I didn't really find. Next best would be Hibernation, High Seas, Flashfreeze, Douse or Gilded Drake which is all not that great and maybe requires at least 8 SB slots to be effective). On the other hand I am not sure if this matchup is even worth a slot because it is still bad after sideboarding. Divert is a must have for me for sideboard next time especially against decks running B or R Spotremoval for creatures.
Decklist was:
//Lands
12 [MR] Island
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MOR] Mutavault
//Creatures
4 [U] Lord of Atlantis
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
3 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
//Spells
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [DS] Echoing Truth
4 [DS] Aether Vial
4 [NE] Daze
3 [SC] Stifle
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [5E] Hydroblast
Thanks for all the helpful input from this merfolk thread here. It made me play this deck and it was a lot of fun to play (and it actually made me register and post a comment ;) )
3 Mainboard relics are plenty to stop goyf and tombstalker. It also looks like you could have used the advice on using 2 Whirlpool Riders for the mana flood you drew with the Standstills. Sideboarded echoing truth for stifles should take care of the Tombstalker. I really think this matchup is an autowin. None of their disruption should work on you, and you have vials. Relic is autowin. They have 4 snuff out for spot removal, which shouldn't be enough to kill you unless you play aggressively, but they can't play Tombstalker and Goyf is a 0/1 vs. you for Relic.
Don't play stupidly. That is to say, expect the mana they saved to be used during your attack on your lord. You can always wait to attack with a Thrasher, or have 2 LoA out.
What big creatures are there after you turn their Goyf into a 0/1, and make their Tombstalker unplayable? I've only run into Doran, and Loxodon Hierarch, and both of these are easy enough to race.
Yes, don't copy the sideboard list of this deck if you don't play where the people who made it do. It is always a meta choice.
You underestimated the effect Relic has for this deck. It improves goyf sligh, wins against Team America, completely beats Threshold, and does various things against other decks. Also, as I've been arguing for a long time, you need at least 20 creatures in the deck. Any less and you are going too much into the control aspect, but as you found out, this deck can't stall forever. There are few situations where I'd want echoing truth maindeck over relic, since turning a goyf into a 0/1 is better than bouncing it. Killing a terravore is better than bouncing it. Preventing a Tombstalker is slightly better than bouncing it.
Well thx for your quick response. Ah well Whirl Pool Rider to compensate bad luck naaah ;) Most of the times Standstill had good draws. Although, if you propose creature No. 20 there would be one free job for a merfolk in that list. Or it could be 1-3 Dreadnaughts instead?
About the Relics you are quite right. I actually played them after reading here how good they are but decided to go with Echoing Truth thinking it more versatile. Actually they weren't. So as an effect I sided 1-2 Echoing Truth out almost every game. Relique on the opposite was very good. Of course I played with all 3 in Game 2 against Team America but you miss 2 things: you have to draw it (or mulligan for it depending on starting hand) and you have to foresee Stifle: In my Game 2 against TA I could hold off the Goyf quite well being a 2/3 at max for a time ... well but unfortunately as I had to blow it (because Goofy was about to grow), it got stifled :/ something I should have expected from Team America.
Yeah, I played very aggressively knowing that my advantages wouldnt last forever, but maybe I could have sat back a few more times ... hard to say ... thats for the next time then, I surely learned a few things during the tourney again ;) Actually I only had time to breath with a Standstill out but as you could read before that is NO autowin. I definitely think that Team America and EvaGreen could have turned out differently, so a 5:2 should have been possible maybe if I had invested more time in playtesting and SB options (especially Divert/Misdirection). NQG running Counterbalance seems harder but manageable. So with luck and playskill this deck could be ... :D GoyfSligh well maybe running more Mind Harness will do and not seeing a Shusher.
The deck still does not get much attention from my pov. Maybe this changes ... in the tournament half of the opponents went like "uh ah merfolk, i heard of it, oh what? you play stifle?, shit, I didn't know that". Although if this happens everybody is better prepared. I think I like my opponents being unprepared for some more time ;)
Now you understood how Divert is important in SB. I think that, against team america, you should side out all the stifles (the only purpose is to stifle their fetches, but i assume that you don't play against 2 yrs old children..), and go with all your relics (which, i have to admit, is a house) and the divert, since divert can... misdirect lots, LOTS of thing ( counters, thoughtseizes, SINKHOLES, SNUFF OUTS..).
And, of course, be prepared to side in the diverts too against goyf sligh: just drop a folk, be careful to keep U open, wait for their burn spell and divert it on their lavamancer. It's fucking nuts.
Imo, don't hesitate to play even 4 copies of Divert in side if you're meta is so aggressive: what Phoenix has said is perfectly true, you can't simply copy /paste the Sb lists you find here and get the cards, the sideboard is purely a metagame issue.
And don't play so aggressively against such kind of decks, because they can easily sweep your army away and beat with their fatties. Just pay attention to the "control " role your deck has in the first phases of the game ( denying their mana is great, as well as trying to drop a standstill with a mutavault , if possible), then drop the 'folks and start beating. Of course the way you play differs from every situation you find yourself in, but usually merfolks is not the "drop, beat, drop, beat" goblin approach.
I'm very pleased , however, that you found yourself having a good time with this deck, and I hope that you can find interesting "tips " in this thread.
Keep the Merfolks on !
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Jeez, it seems there is a lot of action with this deck recently.
In my extensive testing I found spot removal of my important guys to be the single biggest problem, hence the horrendous Goyfsligh matchups you people are reporting. I think Divert is about the best suggestion I have seen in a long time.
I think hitting the mana supply of TA early is of paramount importance, however. So, while I have not tested it, I can't see taking out the Stifles. Early on, they own TA. And later on, you can always pitch them to FoW or perhaps use them on Wastelands targeting Vaults.
Personally, I have dumped Port in favor of Mutavault. And along with it, Standstill is a clear choice. The list posted by Nekrataal looks pretty clean and streamlined. Even still, I have also been unhappy with Echoing Truth. I have tried Psioinic Blast, Rushing River, and Repeal in that spot as well. I think I like Repeal the best. But it is still lacking somewhat. Certainly we are all interested in exactly how much Relics should be making their way into the main. And using just one with no way to search for it seems a bit weak. But it is the right direction. Tight mana and deep dependence on graveyards are the Achilles Heel of most of our opponents. This should be the direction we are taking imo.
I am a bit concerned about the timing of a Relic. I mean, if you resolve it early, you can expect to get a lot of mileage out of it as long as they don't have a needle for it. But if you don't land it early enough, you are going to have to remove the graveyards before the opponent plays Tombstalker or it sux. That isn't always easy.
I will be updating the OP very soon. Please pm me your primer info if you have any detailed analyses to include.
Last edited by Finn; 01-06-2009 at 12:16 PM.
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How is the timing on Relic hard? Just throw it out there asap and keep on removing cards in the yard in your mainphase. If they are running out of cards to dump in their yard pop or you draw an additional one, pop the Relic. Remember that you play the control role in the TA vs. Merfolk matchup, so every turn you gain gives you the oppurtunity to flood the boards with threats and even make your own guys stronger. Also, if you can keep their threats small with Relic, you can wiggle out of the soft lock they aim to create with their LD. That is the way I use Relic in Goblins against TA and it works pretty well.
OOooOOooh Hi Finn, didn't know you still read Merfolks.
Yep, this card does seem to be the most helpful. It isn't as autoscoop as I said before, I've won a good number of times due to Sligh not hitting enough burns. This is rare though, so I would still put the match at 30%
I would disagree, I think stifles can be sideboarded out for Echoing Truth. It's much better to bounce the Tombstalker than try to keep them fully mana denied since they only need 2 lands ever to run well, and at 1 island they can cantrip all they want.
Mantis is 100% correct on what should happen during this MU, even though he just plays relic in gobbos.
Relic is easily the reason I won the tournament with this deck. Check out my tournament report a page or two back for more details. Echoing truth is a great card, but I have found it unnecessary in the maindeck.
3 of them lets you resolve it early. You do need to pop it early so they don't get Tombstalker out, but almost no one plays thinking that you have a Relic, so a lot of times they will be tapped out turns 2-4, as is their strategy with that deck.
Checking the last few pages of the thread would be the best bet. We've gone over many different cards to fill the open slots. Right now I still like the list to be:
4 LoA
4 Reejery
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
2-3 Wakethrasher
1-2 Whirlpool Rider
3 Relic
4 FoW
3 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Stifle
4 Vial
12 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
SB:
3 Echoing Truth
2 Propaganda
3 Divert
2 Pithing Needle
2 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast effects
Why dont you play waterfront bouncer? He seems really good in a meta with stalkers and noughts to me. For the rest i like the build.
team HASTE!
Careful, some people find that reason laughable.
I don't because of the huge card disadvantage. He doesn't swing, he doesn't even do anything the turn he comes in. He's a huge tempo loss and "in a meta with stalkers and noughts" also means "in a meta with stifle." He might draw out a kill, but that's the most you could expect. We run Relics maindeck so tombstalker shouldn't be a problem, and we can usually race one quite efficiently (even a silvergill + mutavault does the job after they use fetchlands). Dreadnought would be the only reason, but then why shouldn't we run someone like Shapesharer instead?
Because they both suck.
Far too slow, far too inefficient, and if it gets stifled you are already wasting 2 cards on it. The only benefit is that you can drop a standstill if you have him out and then bounce their threats in the meantime. The only problem with that is that popping a standstill is by no means game over for them, even if you do get +2 cards total.
Nice to see Finn returning to this deck. As you can see, we have walked very far with it
However, I still can't renounce to completely cutting the ports in this deck, so I returned to playing them in 2x along with wastelands and mutavaults. the results has proven that i were right about the fact that , sometimes, ports make you win the game, really. I think that they're a bit underextimated for the enourmous service they provide, since stealing 1 mana from the opponent per turn really does the difference, and they also increase the effectiveness of tempo cards such as standstill.
Playing 11 islands seemed to me to be risky, but with tests i got that it's a supportable quantity to find a blue source from the first turn.
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Waterfront Bouncer has been already mentioned as a possible candidate for that vacating slot which everyone fills with his "personal" merfolks some time ago, but I agree on the fact that it's too slow and such too card- disadvantaging for being included and add decent consistency to the army.
I'd rather play Grimoire thief, at that point (ironic, ofc, even if I did it).
However, it seems that Conflux will bring us a lot fishes, so let's stare at what will exit from that expansion. We hope another Lord, so the deck will be able to be called " Fishes on Roids" :-D
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Where have you gotten this information that Conflux will be bringing us fishes? I would love to see that happen but I sadly don't belive so. Perhaps the "blue shard" Esper will give us an artifact merfolk however :)
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Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
Boh i read somewhere in this forum that a lots of merfolks would have joined Conflux, but perhaps i read wrong or it was just a joke. I hope it's not ofc, but i think that wizards has already decided to stop printing powerful merfolks, since the good success they have had in standard- of course, they don't care at all about legacy, that's for sure.
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Against targeted removal (which seems to be an issue), Waterfront bouncer is still a bit slow, but is CA neutral.
There's a leaked Conflux card list with obvious greenskins (Wandering Goblins, Goblin Outlander & Goblin Razerunners), the blue cards look more artifact and sphinx oriented.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=131996
Exactly my observation. Lighning Bolt, Fire/Ice in NQG/r, Smother, Snuff Out in EvaGreen and TA, StoP in NQG/w have more effect than just removing a creature, they weaken your whole team (first target is the LoA then Rejeerey). Thats why a single Divert would have saved the day for me at times. With the Mana denial package Merfolks bring this seems to be a perfect fit. Maybe a 3/1 split with Misdirection. Well I just bought 4 Divert just in case. ;)
As green is not their main color you can try to cut them off that color. They play a lot of fetchies so finding a target shouldnt be a problem.
I at least tried Rushing River which has its advantages at times. But i now think that bounce in general is not choice No.1 maindeck. Regarding Potrs, well, there were Games where they could have been useful but Iam not sure running more non blue Manasources because 3 Mutavault (together with Standstill) and 4 Wastelands seem a must have. But I already saw lists with just 11 Islands, 4 Wastelands, 2-3 Mutavaults and 2 Ports.
Team America having green isn't a big deal if you have a Relic since 0/1 creatures aren't that scary.
Piceli, how is the 11 island running? I've not had good results with it, mainly for the reasons we discussed. Also, I know ports are good, I'm just wondering if that's going a little too much out of the way for their effect.
Honestly, even with vial out I usually tap out playing something. Saving mana for Port is probably as much of a tempo loss as it is a tempo gain. Maybe you have a different take on it though?
Just used the orb of insight for Conflux and it said 0 merfolks for Conflux :(
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
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