[OLD] UGr Threshold

[Enigma]

Those decks stomp your face in anyway. The fact that those are bad match ups makes the claim that 5c Thresh sucks is none unique; it applies to UGw as well.

Recent UGw builds are running 4 basics lands because of B2B, so I doubt 5c and UGw have the same MU against those decks.

PM

[Adan]

Those decks stomp your face in anyway. The fact that those are bad match ups makes the claim that 5c Thresh sucks is none unique; it applies to UGw as well.

No it doesn't, the current UGw build Clemens and I are playing is designed to beat Aggroloam. In the tournament where Clemens went 6-0 with UGw, he beat 4 AggroLoams 2-0, so 8-0 in games.

I lost 2-1 against 2 AggroLoams due to the lack of Jotun Grunt in the SB, they would have won if they were not Tormod's Crypts.

But Jotun Grunt is currently the auto-include in UGw's sideboard as he recycles basiclands which might get destroyed by Sinkholes, making it able to you to simply fetch them again, he keeps Goys and Terravores small, he prevents the TA-player from dropping Tombstalkers and so on.

Of course you can include him into 5color Threshold, but due to the lack of Basiclands, you will most likely still lose to random B2Bs and Moons (in my match against Imperial Painter, I won against triple-Moons because of Island and Plains. And cantrips into Forest).

[JMG021283]

Last time I check'd this is UGr threshold:) not UGw:) Lets keep on track:P

Too be honest I've been fairly happy with UGr threshold in most the places I play. I rarely have many problems with it in general meta's. Def. think submerge deserves at least 3-4 slots in board. I've been happy with disrupt. I got the chance to test it Wensday turned out well. I sided it in a little more then I probably should of, but turned out well in most match and as well in the mirror's. I personally went down to one grip and kept two predator's. My choice on them is then general stax decks that pop up in the shop. Just some random thoughts. Also I play two basics been really happy with the choice of that as well.

[Mister Agent]

I think 5c threshold has a optimal game against TA. Running more fetchlands then TA has stifles is a way to stabalize a solid manabase. Not to mention Thoughtseize, Swords to plowshares, and counterbalance is enough to stop Team america on a consistent basis. Oh yeah and never leave home without your red blasts either.

[Jaiminho]

I think 5c threshold has a optimal game against TA. Running more fetchlands then TA has stifles is a way to stabalize a solid manabase. Not to mention Thoughtseize, Swords to plowshares, and counterbalance is enough to stop Team america on a consistent basis. Oh yeah and never leave home without your red blasts either.

I don't think I've ever seen a deck that runs fetchland and runs less than 4. Also, trading a Stifle for a fetchland is a hell of a tempo gain, so it's not like it's a solid plan to stabilize your mana base. The rest is what beats TA, though. Counterbalance + Swords to Plowshares is what makes Thresh win that match.

[Mister Agent]

I don't think I've ever seen a deck that runs fetchland and runs less than 4. Also, trading a Stifle for a fetchland is a hell of a tempo gain, so it's not like it's a solid plan to stabilize your mana base. The rest is what beats TA, though. Counterbalance + Swords to Plowshares is what makes Thresh win that match.

I doubt it's that BAD of a tempo loss for you if the TA player stifles your activated fetch. Especially since Threshold functions just fine on one or two mana for starters. You also run cantrips and city of brass to subside the general "tempo loss" from Team America.

[sauce]

What are people's opinions in regards to running Rushing river vs Wipe away.
I currently run Rushing river because it can bounce 2 things, and only requires 1 blue, so if I drop a Blood moon, its easier to RR than WA.
Obv, I love split second, I am kinda torn.

Thoughts?

[Jaiminho]

I doubt it's that BAD of a tempo loss for you if the TA player stifles your activated fetch. Especially since Threshold functions just fine on one or two mana for starters. You also run cantrips and city of brass to subside the general "tempo loss" from Team America.

When you would be playing CB, Confidant or Goyf (talking about 5c, right?), you'll still have to keep cantripping. This is tempo loss. Also, you'll be more vulnerable to Daze. If you play around it, you are losing even more tempo.

[Muradin]

I am also pretty sure that running the 1/1 split in bounce can’t be the right decision. If you have a metagame where being able to bounce lands (Glacial Chasm would be an example) and having split second (for example when you are playing against dreadstill and trying to bounce a nought through a counterwall) important, then run Wipe Away. If you don't need split second that often and you have no decks in your metagame where you would like to bounce lands, then wipe away is strictly superior because it gives you the option of bouncing two cards at once.

Concerning Disrupt I really have mixed feelings towards this card. Sometimes they are absolutely amazing, but sometimes they are just useless as hell. I am actually not so happy with this card because it doesn't have such a big impact on the game. I mean, Pyroclasm wins against goblins really often; Submerge gives big tempo swings and makes me feel much more comfortable about hard matchups like Aggro Loam and Team America. Disrupt simply is a situational Force Spike that cantrips. It can win games for sure and might even be useful quite often, but when my opponents have game breaking cards, such as Relic of Progenitus.
Magic is a game of luck and skill and you simply still can very easily lose after having disrupted a sinkhole in the best case. But you won’t lose very often after having pyroclasmed a bunch of goblins away. So I think your sideboard should contain a great number of game wining cards that help you to win bad or balanced matchups and not so many neat tricks. (Disrupt)
However I would really be pleased if you could convince me that Disrupt is good. (as it’s a cool card)
This is my board at the moment:

4 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle (I really think those are worth their spots)
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Trygon Predator (am not sure whether I need those as there is quite some Dreadstill but no Staxx or Affinity in my meta)

[Shriekmaw]

4 Submerge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle (I really think those are worth their spots)
2 Pyroblast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Trygon Predator (am not sure whether I need those as there is quite some Dreadstill but no Staxx or Affinity in my meta)

I would drop the needles and predators, they simply are not needed. If you are really worried about dreadstill, you can add 2 ancient grudge into the board, they are pretty good against them. I found the red blasts to be enough most of the time against dreadstill.

I went down to 3 submerges in my board to find the room to add in 3 disrupts. I've been pretty happy with it so far.

[JMG021283]

Gotta agree with not needing needles, Pred's on otherhand I've found useful at times. My meta see's stax quite often. Disrupt I will say I've been happy with. More then happy actually.

[Muradin]

But what is actually the purpose of Disrupt? I see that it helps against combo and Team America, and perhaps the mirror. But would you also board it in, let's say against Landstill to counter some Brainstorms and to supplement Daze?
Or is it just some Tech to come out with an advantage in aggro control mirrors?
How would you guys board with a board containing 4 REB, 4 Disrupt and 4 Submerge (Goobafish's one) in the Team America matchup?

[Mister Agent]

When you would be playing CB, Confidant or Goyf (talking about 5c, right?), you'll still have to keep cantripping. This is tempo loss. Also, you'll be more vulnerable to Daze. If you play around it, you are losing even more tempo.

It depends really, regardless threshold can play around anything that Team america plays as well. Threshold is one of the top dogs for a reason. You don't necassarily need to keep on cantripping when you have the ability to cast a threat and keep it on the field while disrupting whatever your opponent plays. Threshold is the best deck in the format at sustaining this. Also cantripping is utilized as a strength not a weakness.

[Citrus-God]

@Adan: Seriously, Jotun Grunt isn't a reason to play UGw exclusively; he can be played in 5c as well. Some lists of Aggro Loam runs a playset of Engineered Explosives. They'll just cast it and just wipe your board clean of 2c creatures and/or Counterbalance. Against TA, Jotun Grunt is nothing more than a clock that forces them to answer it or else their clocks fail to have any validity and board dominance as Jotun Grunt sticks around on the board. It may recycle basics, but that only helps you against 4 cards in their deck; Wastelands. You still have to deal with 4 Stifles, 4 Sinkholes and 4 Dazes. Doesn't help you still have to play around those cards as well. Personally the best approach is to find a way to keep more opening hands and land a Counterbalance Turn 2. 5c Thresh is good at this. Resolve Counterbalance and they have to bait in order to cast disruption against you.Thoughtseize also helps delay disruption or take out threats. Maybe it can even help you resolve a Counterbalance Turn 2 by taking out a FoW/Daze with your own Counters backed up as well.

Also, Back to Basics may be a good card, but it's only good against certain match ups. Thoughtseize helps against every match-up; including Goyf Sligh. Gets rid of that Price of Progress! Bet Back to Basics can't do that against Goyf Sligh.

@Jaiminho: You've just made my case that Threshold's match up against Aggro Loam is none unique; you're the underdog in that match both post board and pre board. Also, with the rise of Ad Nauseam, Aggro Loam's presence will slowly diminish, especially with LED in the format along with a pseudo Yawgmoth's Bargain present. With combo as a big part of the picture, it will be Thresh, Dreadstill and TA's golden moment in the metagame.

[Enigma]

I'm running the classic Canadian trash list but changed 4 Disrupts for 3x Tormod's and 1x Grip and 1x Pyroclasm for 1x EE. I would like to know what you guys do against Ichorid without Tormod's.

How would you guys board with a board containing 4 REB, 4 Disrupt and 4 Submerge (Goobafish's one) in the Team America matchup?

I'm also questionning myself about this. I won 2-0 yesterday against Team Europe (no sinkholes but EE + Spell snares), I had the chance to mana denial him more than he did + stifle EE to keep mongoose hiting. My sideboard plan was this: 4x Submerge, 4x REB's for -4x Daze, -4 Bolt. I really didn't want to cut Dazes but I found the Fire/ice useful in mana denial plan (tapping at upkeep + draw) + in goyfs war. The Spell snare are good to prevents goyfs.

[Waikiki]

I'd actually wouldn't side out burn since Team america hurts itself alot through snuff out and seizes. I've burned them out alot of times. I considder spell snare to be the weaker slot. It only stops goyf and thats smt where you allready board submerges for. I'd also board in disrupt aswell instead of the RED/Pyro since disrupt hits more then just the cantrips. and it cantrips itself. I love it vs TA.

[spirit of the wretch]

So, I'd like to share my latest developments on balanced Grow/r with you guys. I got second at the local Hassloch tourney (46 players). After starting 5/0/0 I lost the last round due to mulligan to 4 into another no-lander... bad beats!
Anyway, lately I haven't been impressed with the 'Geese in my list. They simply are too small to make an impact and as our meta completly lacks TA and Landstill, I decided to cut them and go oldscool. So without further ado I present you:

[SPOD] Next Level Grow

3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoxf
4 Quirion Dryade
3 Trygon Predator

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei'S Devine Top
4 Lightning Bolt

This is the core of the deck. The additional 5 slots are meta dependent and I'm currently testing:
Rushing River
Snake Form
Blood Moon
Vendilion Clique
Counterspell
Fire/Ice
Magma Jet
Engineered Explosives
Pithing Needle
Relic of Progenitus
Spitebellows

Some remarks:
This obviously is a metagame deck. Our meta has a fair share of Tribal.decs and Thresh, which is why I prefer to play red (Pyroclasms and REBs are simply that good). Also Dreadstill isn't present.
The Quirion Dryads were awesome for me all day! Due to the high permanent count of my list, reaching Threshold early basically is impossible. In the midgame they outgrow Goyfs and give me the possibility to race Tombstalker (both creatures give you a hard time) and they grant you the possibility of maindeck Relics.
Trygon Predator advanced to a must play in my eyes. They do so much for the deck, it's not even funny! I could throw in a list of artifact and enchantments that really cripple your gameplan, but I'm fairly sure you can all think of them yourselves.

[MSC]

Yeah, it's definitly a great Deck!

Even thought about Izzet Guildmage as a 2-Of? It makes you able to kill Goyfs / Stalker with Burn or generate Card-Advantage with Ponder.
(Nebenbei kann man damit auch feindliche CB umgehen, falls der Gegner es nicht freiwillig verzockt. )

[Henrik]

Regarding Next Level Grow:

I like the list, but I am having a hard time seeing why you chose to keep this list red. In maindeck the bolts are all that is red, and in a counterbalance build without wasteland and stifle, I can not see why swords to plowshares isn't used instead. Perhaps if you used some of the suggested cards for the 5 open slots that needed red, but in this case, you didn't (predict and progenitus if I quote deckcheck correctly?)

Can you comment on this?

[Glorfindel]

Red provides nice sideboard options in the form of Pyroclasm and Pyroblast.