I play negator over gouger in most cases...so yeah...not sure what to say there.
Needless to say though: the new card requires conditions to be met before being played effectively, which smacks of fail. You folks can delude yourselves and play it like this card is completely awesome, but when everything is said and done in order for this card to be effective you will need to be getting lucky on second turns or making specific plays on third turns. Whereas if you are running a negator or gouger, you are paying for the body you get specifically with no bullshit specific conditions needing to be met.
As far as I am concerned sui needs to be fairly consistent if only in its cards doing exactly what they are supposed to do all the time, despite drawbacks.
Please avoid bringing up Tomb Stalker too because Tomb Stalker's conditions are notably easier to meet and he typically is not usually equated with a spot that negator or gouger typically fill as far as I know. Tomb Stalker also doesn't require a specific type of card(discard) to be played in order to come down earlier in the game.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Not to mention Tombstalker has evasion. Evasion is good for racing. Also, you can keep more LD oriented opening hands with Tombstalker.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
Heh, hells yeah. I didn't even notice your reply that you clearly typed quicker than mine. Great minds think alike.
As far as I am concerned with sui black once you start peering into specifically mid to late game possibilities, you had might as well opt for a different archetype because early game is what sui is all about.
Turn one-Negator ideally or some other suicidal, but fat beater
Turn two-disrupt and swing
Turn three-disrupt and more pressure(TS p'raps?)
Turn four-???
Turn five-Profit
I remember wayyy back, paralax dementia/twisted experiment was part of the equation for me too, but in any event yeah. Aside from budget, I see absolutely no reason to run sui black over the two evolutions it has seen in the last few years unless you are looking for sheer speed and short-sighted impact. Once someone starts trying to figure out solutions for mid and late game, you had better start looking at ways to make your early game better or other decks like funkbrew or Eva Green.
I played sui religiously for a while and gave up on it quite a while ago, so maybe I am off on my analysis of the archetype's current role.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
what is the general opinion here on the source of Null Rod when it comes to helping improve the Ad Nauseam Tendrils and Affinity match up for Sui Black and other black aggro decks?
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
umm, play discard instead. More effective that is versatile lol. You should be running 8-12 maindeck. I always was under the assumption that sui black was good against combo. Maybe another discard card that can double as control hate would be good for the board. Null rod is slow unless its paired with dark ritual
Call me Ishmael
yes, Sui Black WAS good against combo... that is until Wizards decided to print Ad Nauseam. Now Combo can go off any damn time they please, despite our disruption simply by top decking the right card. So no, really Sui Black no longer has the upper hand against Combo anymore, at least not Combo that is running Ad Nauseam.
Even if we could run discard that is instant speed, and capable of stoping their combo before it can go off, we will get chanted if they get wind of our discard being instant speed, thus allowing them to go off.
As such I think that our only real options to deal with Discard are either of the following two:
Null Rod - which also stops affinity
or Chalice of the Void - set at ZERO and possibly ONE - but that doesn't really do much against any other deck that we could be facing except ourselves and possibly burn.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
The problem is much older: Before Ad Nauseam, combo was simply topdecking Ill-Gotten Gains or a tutor instead. Either way the effect was the same; win without handcards off the top. The universal adoption of Brainstorm further adds to the issue as they can simply hide their win on the top, play out manasources and then win regardless of what you do. So hitting their mana while beating them to all hell is really the best way to go.
I completely agree, which is why I suggest either Chalice of the Void, or Null Rod as an addition to the Sinkholes we already run to be the main disruption to run against a Storm deck of the modern environment.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
I have been asked to ask if people here on the source think that the following deck "sucks"
personally I don't care whether you guys think it sucks or not, considering I think the deck is good enough to see play. I just do not think it can really qualify as true Mono Black Aggro of any sort. It is really more as Arsenal said on Salvation, a hybrid between Mono Black Aggro and Mono Black Control, which in and of itself is not a bad thing, but really not something that I would want to play... so I was wondering what people here thought of it?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=15757
Xavi Frances' Mono Black Congro deck
// creature [12]
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Tombstalker
// instant [8]
4 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Smother
// sorcery [15]
3 Damnation
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
1 Thoughtseize
// enchantment [4]
4 Phyrexian Arena
// land [21]
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Lake of the Dead
2 Polluted Delta
9 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
// Sideboard:
2 Withered Wretch
4 Extirpate
1 Cranial Extraction
4 Engineered Plague
2 Gloom
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
I don't understand Damnation in the deck. Whose board does it want to sweep? (And which deck even plays many creatures in Legacy?) Furthermore, on 21 lands (4 of which Wastelands, but 4 more Dark Rituals)?
Also, Lake of the Dead just seems gimmicky, it's so vulnerable to Wasteland. Is it a right choice?
Also the split of Duresses and Thoughtseize seems odd, running only 4 removal spells. And why no Snuff Out?
In the Sideboard, Gloom seems weird. I don't think it's relevant in any matchups (unless its purpose is to make StP cost 3W?)...
That decklist is dated; early 2008 I believe? And look and what the opther decks in the top 8 looked like. Definitely not representative of what you'd typically encounter at a 20+ person tourney now.
another concern I have about this deck is it has 6 sets of cards main decked, and 8 total (sideboard included) for a grand total of 19 cards that can be affected by either Pithing Needle, Trickbind, or Stifle to a detrimental effect, which is if you ask me way too many to be a good thing....
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Nobody's going to Stifle or Trickbind a Nantuko Shade, and hardly anyone Piths Fetches anymore. And do people even pith or Stifle Volrath's Stronghold? Also, I can only count 5 types of cards Maindecked that can be Pithed. Mana Abilities aren't affected by Stifle or Needle (Lake of the Dead), right? (though that is, confessedly, weak to Wasteland)
@Arsenal:
Dated as it is, I'm still keen on the Phyrexian Arenas, though, they look rather interesting to play around with...
oh... yeah, you are correct... lake of the dead doesn't count, though it can be stifled and trickbinded if I am not mistaken.... And you are quite correct, no one stifles a nantuko but they have been known to pith it. And I have had Fetches hit by Stifles / Trickbinds from time to time, though never pithed, its just to unreliable. And I would imagine that people would pith Volrath's Stronghold if it became a big enough nuisance.
The point I was trying to make wasn't would people do these things, the point was "COULD" they do these things....
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Yes?The point I was trying to make wasn't would people do these things, the point was "COULD" they do these things...
I don't get it: outdated deck is outdated and has some questionable card choices in light of more recent metagame developments...next?
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
I was trying to prove a point to a friend... that the deck and its card choices were out dated, and not good in a suicide black deck. He unfortunately didn't believe what I had to say, and now isn't talking to me for various reasons. So yeah, that ends that issue.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
I wonder how this new Conflux card will affect Suicide Black.
Nyxathid
Creature - Horror
As Nyxathid comes into play, choose an opponent.
Nyxathid gets -1/-1 for each card in the chosen player's hand.
7/7
Thats what we've been talking about all of the past page.
I don't know, unlike many people here, I personally think Nyxathid has potential as a 3x or 2x of. Yes, it's a threat that you play after your slew of disruption, rather than before. But that's the same with Goyf and Tombstalker as well. Spending the first few turns disrupting the crap out of your opponent is not a bad way to spend the first few turns. And then it's usually a 3cc 5/5, which isn't horrible.
Yes, most are saying this won't see play. But lots of people thought Tombstalker and Goyf wouldn't make the cut in legacy.
Even the first several days after release, plenty were arguing that Goyf was inferior to Werebear even in threshold and no one was even considering the card anywhere else (Goyfs were worth about $.50 cents a piece on ebay back then, I should know, I picked a few playsets only to sell them the second they jumped up to $12 a piece).
The only deck that saw the potential in Tombstalker as soon as it was spoiled was Pox. And then it wasn't for several months, yes MONTHS before anyone else saw the card as worth running.
Now I'm not saying this card is anywhere remotely as good. It's not. But that just makes the potential that it does have harder to see.
I think nyxathid will find a home in Suicide. It's too good to pass. On paper, he seems that he's situational, but consider the 8-12 discard effects in Suicide Black, he will at least be a 4/4 or 5/5. Now, consider the matchups extending to mid-game, how often do you see players with more than 5 cards in hand with the exception of Landstill. Even MUC gets low on cards until they FoF.
Playing against other decks such as Goblins, Nyxathid is potentially huge. If the deck includes MD Extirpate or Cabal Therapy (which are bad in Suicide black I know, but if we find a more hand-disruptive shell), this is probably the next best creature in terms of mana-cost next to Goyf. Goyf is huge and situationally better, but both Nyxathid and Goyf are situational creatures, where Goyf experiences more hate with the increased popularity of Relic of Progenitus and many other cards.
I would be getting a set of these when it comes out, in case the Goyf/tombstalker mistake happens again.
This is the Black Suicide that I am going to test.
Note: I replaced sinkhole with Duress for more discard.
My Doran Suicide is more focused on LD.
Still doubting the 2x Extirpate main deck.....
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Nyxathid
2 Tombstalker
Spells
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
2 Extirpate
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smother
4 Thoughtseize
Artifacts
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
9 Swamp
3 Wasteland
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