[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[DKK]

You should never, ever, ever lead with Brainstorm if you're trying to find a second land.

98% of the time, you should simply play your Land and pass the turn. Then, 90% of the time, you should Brainstorm during your next mainphase. (If the opponent plays like Tropical Island and passes, you may want to play Brainstorm at the end of his turn, so that you don't signal you're mana-screwed, which may make him Daze your Brainstorm). By waiting until your next turn, after your draw step, you see an extra card.

I know, just for the purpose of this example I didn't make the distinction between your own and your opponents turn. I agree with you on the Brainstorm next mainphase. In that case, however, Ponder would have been better on your first turn.

But let's not make this while thread a Ponder vs. Brainstorm debate. We should put our efforts into improving the deck rather than arguing which of those is better in what situation.

[KrzyMoose]

I'm actually of the belief that every deck should start with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder.

People should just suck it up, cut Trinket Mage, and play the following:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Xx other cards

And there you have it: the perfect deck.

[DKK]

So yesterday I played UGr Dreadstill in a 156 player tournament in Utrecht, the Netherlands.

Top 8 was:
1. Ur Dreadstill
2. UGR ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh
3. UGr Dreadstill (me)
4. BGW Rock
5-8. Merfolk
5-8. Combo Elves
5-8. Faerie Stompy
5-8. UGR ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (not sure)

The first prize was a flight, probably hotel, entree fee and 3 byes to GP Chicago. While playing the semi's it became clear that both the later finalists didn't want/weren't allowed to go to Chicago. So me and the other semi-finalist played it out and I won 2-0. Guess I'll be going to Chicago!

Here's my list:
Creatures:
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Trinket Mage

Spells:
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
3 Hydroblast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle

I went 6-0-2 resulting in a 3rd place Swiss finish with 20 points. In t8 I defeated the Elf player and lost a very close and cool match against Ur Dreadstill. His crucibles were key in the mirror. Game 3 I thought I was at 5 when I wanted to swing for the first 12 with my Dreadnought when he had 2 Factories with Crucible out. Then I noticed I'd forgotten one life point and I was 1 life short of winning. Unfortunately I didn't see much Goyfs in the semi's.

Overall I went 8-1-2 in matches and 18-6 in games, playing Ponder as I promoted for the past week in the this thread. I used to play 4 Ponder and 20 land in my deck. But the probablities I've posted here gave me more insight on the impact of Ponder, therefore I switched to 21 land and 3 Ponder. Last minute I discussed my list with Rich Shay who advised me to play a second Explosives in the deck. I cut the 3rd Ponder for it. The deck is real consistent and very good.

Here are the matches I've played:
Rnd 1: UW Control, 1-1
Rnd 2: MUC, 1-0
Rnd 3: BUG NoughtFish, 2-1
Rnd 4: Mono R Goblins, 2-0
Rnd 5: RG Goblins, 1-1
Rnd 6: RGWB Survival, 2-0
Rnd 7: UWG ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, 2-1
Rnd 8: MUC(with white splash for swords), 2-1

Top 8: Elf Combo, 2-0
Top 4: Ur Dreadstill, 1-2
3rd/4th: BWG Rock, 2-0

[Atog]

Congratulations for your result! How were ponders working for you during day? And how were firespouts, did you ever wish they were pyroclasms?

In the future, please refrain from quoting large bodies of text.
-TOOL

[DKK]

Congratulations for your result! How were ponders working for you during day? And how were firespouts, did you ever wish they were pyroclasms?

Ponders were good, finding the cards you want when you need them.

I have never been in a situation where I wished firespouts were pyroclasm. I boarded them in vs. Elves, Goblins and The Rock. I haven't been in mana problems, so the higher mana-cost wasn't an issue. The same for flyers. I did counter a Vindicate with CounterBalance against the Rock. I think the 3cc is more of a benefit than a liability because of counterbalance.

[Atog]

Ponders were good, finding the cards you want when you need them.

I have never been in a situation where I wished firespouts were pyroclasm. I boarded them in vs. Elves, Goblins and The Rock. I haven't been in mana problems, so the higher mana-cost wasn't an issue. The same for flyers. I did counter a Vindicate with CounterBalance against the Rock. I think the 3cc is more of a benefit than a liability because of counterbalance.

Ok. That rock-deck should be our worst matchup yes? Did you have luck or did opponent has bad draws or something? One more question, what did you side agaist ugr thresh? Thanks!

[Rodney]

I could see the list of Ur Dreadstill version? Thanks

DTB posts are required to have more content.
-TOOL

[DKK]

Ok. That rock-deck should be our worst matchup yes? Did you have luck or did opponent has bad draws or something? One more question, what did you side agaist ugr thresh? Thanks!

I heard it was our worst matchup, but I have to admit I hadn't played against it before the tournament. I did test some against Eva Green though, aside from the Tombstalkers (which my deck has no answer for, I couldn't lay my hand on some submerges) it is winnable.

I won the die-roll which is a big plus and managed to outdraw and control him both games with standstills and countertop. I boarded in Firespouts to deal with his army of skullers/witness/confidants and to have more 3cc's for counterbalance (against vindicate). I had some luck, but I also got the feeling I played very tight those games (after already 10 rounds of tournament play ).

Against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh (it was UGW) I boarded like this:
+3 Krosan Grip (for their CB)
+2 Red Elemental Blast
-3 Daze (I won game 1, almost always board these out on the draw, because of the tempo disadvantage)
-1 Island (my initial build had 20 land, so I'm comfortable with playing only 20 and I'm on the draw)
-1 ???

Game 3 I boarded the Dazes back in, but I can't remember what I boarded out (I think 2 Spell Snares and something else). Almost always I make notes afterward how I boarded, but somehow I didn't do it this tournament.

Hope this will help you some.

[FoolofaTook]

Your UGr is interesting because it cuts the middle somewhat between a classic Dreadstill and a more Thresh like build. I have a few questions from glancing at the list:

1. Did you find CounterTop coming out often enough to be a dominant effect? The 2x Trinket Mage and 2x Sensei's Divining Top seems a little bit light, maybe by one mage or one top.

2. How often did you get a fast win off of Tarmogoyf with counter backup? I've been looking at a bunch of builds that use Tarmogoyf to speed things up and allow for a second fast win mechanism.

3. You have only two 3cc spell in the main list, does that feel like a solid number?

Your showing was very impressive for a 156 person tourney so obviously the list is sound. Are there any changes you would make based on the tourney at this point?

[jazzykat]

3. You have only two 3cc spell in the main list, does that feel like a solid number?

Which is why I was considering an old thresh shell removing the CB because the main enemy is Krosan Grip (somewhat less so when you run goyfs as a kill as well) and we only have 2 cmc 3.

Alternatively, I think that crucible has a place in dreadstill because of its cmc and rather neat ability.

[Muradin]

So I've piloted Dreadstill to a first place finish at the GP Chicago Trial. There were 156 players as I was told and I was playing an Ur variant that is very similar to Roodmistah's build.

I played the following decklist to a 6-0 followed up with 2 draws in the Swiss and then found my way through the top 8. Resulting in a 9-0-2 score at the end of the day.

Lands: 21
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island

Creatures: 7
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Spells:32
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
2 Trickbind
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard: 15
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon (MVP)
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

The maindeck is the usual Ur Dreadstill but I still wanted to play this one Crucible as I expected a lot of Landstill builds that are otherwise really difficult matchups. That's also the explanation for the Crucibles in the sideboard and it worked out very well for me.
Blood Moon was a card that won many games on its own and helped me to win some otherwise hard matchups.

I had to play against:
Ad Nauseam Storm 2-0
Team America 2-1 (Blood Moon!)
UWb Landstill 2-0 (Crucible)
BW Aggro-Control 2-0 (Explosives, Pyroclasm)
Ugb Landstill with Intuition/Loam 2-1 (Relic, Blood Moon and 3 Crucibles made this matchup a walk in the park after having had a very bad matchup preboard)
Imperial Painter 2-1
2x Draw into top 8

Merfolk 2-1 (I had really bad draws game 1 & 2 but could kill about 5 of his guys with one Pyroclasm in game 2 when he tapped out to come back in this already lost game. Last game I drew the nuts and just won)

Ugr Dreadstill(DKK) 2-1
Those were very close games and I really think he should have had an edge postboard as he had access to Krosan Grip(but I have Crucible which is also very strong). However I could win game 3 because I had some tempo advantage so I could swing a couple of times with a pair of factories. When he got to slip through a Dreadnought I had him down at 4 life and a Crucible on the board. Mishras keep him from attacking and eventually won.

(Those were very tight and close games and it could have turned out the other way round as well)

Finals: Ugr Tempo Threshold
In our first game I had to mulligan to 6 and he got out a pair of Goyfs quite quickly and kills me. (I misplayed here by not going for explosives with 2 counters for 3 mana to dodge spell snare. I'll blame this on being tired at that moment)
In game 2 I mulliganed again but I get a Blood Moon to stick and he has to scoop after I drop Dreadnought and Counterbalance.
In our last game the deck showed how good it is and while he had to mulligan and kept rather bad 6 cards I got an awesome draw with many Relics, Explosives and win based on cardadvantage from my Standstills.

The deck worked very smoothly and I only had to mulligan about 5 times during the whole tournament. The Crucibles in the board were just a metagame adjustment but the Blood Moons definitely will have to stay there as they just give you very easy random wins against many decks.
However I think that there should at least be 1 Crucible in the 75 of Dreadstill as it is such a reliable card that improves your late game a lot.

For me the board worked out quite well, but what do you think about it?
I think this deck is a very good choice in the current metagame because it is very consistent and plays a lot of basic lands which is very important in the times of Team America and Canadian Threshold.
It can execute a very strong gameplan while also being highly disruptive and is very well equipped to deal with Ad Nauseam Combo. Of course there is also a number of bad matchups and problematic cards for Dreadstill but with a good and innovative sideboard there are only very few problems we can not handle.

@ DKK: Nice you won the ticket to Chicago as I can't go and the Threshold player who finished second place doesn't go as well.

[jazzykat]

I think your list is also super tight and I have done some testing with crucible which I feel is a must for the deck. My question is, since you don't have a great answer for Tombstalker did you just plan on bloodmoon for most of the more powerful tombstalker type decs?

Also, do you prefer Bloodmoon or Magus of the Moon?

[Enigma]

Against Red Trash, Blood moon is really better, since they can't burn it.

I also very like your list, I will give it a try for sure.

PM

[Van Phanel]

His plan against Tombstalker was simply racing them with a Nought or stopping them from entering play at all with a Moon or Relic. In testing, he had several games with boarded Echoing Truth, where his opponent could simply replay the Stalker and win which is also why he didn't play them.

[DKK]

1. Did you find CounterTop coming out often enough to be a dominant effect? The 2x Trinket Mage and 2x Sensei's Divining Top seems a little bit light, maybe by one mage or one top.

Counter Top is definitely good in this deck. Some games you just dominate your opponent with it, and in others it is good at baiting counters/removal to make sure year Noughts can go all the way. I could see adding another top in the deck, but it's real tight.

Of course there are games where you should board out CB, like stax, but in most matches resolving it will mean winning with 90% certainty.

2. How often did you get a fast win off of Tarmogoyf with counter backup? I've been looking at a bunch of builds that use Tarmogoyf to speed things up and allow for a second fast win mechanism.

I hardly use Tarmogoyf as a fast win with counter-backup. Part of that is because I only run 3, so I don't always have him in my opener.
Another thing to consider is how you want to play this deck. My goal is to fetch out an early basic and gain control before dropping a creature to go all the way. Tarmogoyf does a great job in stopping early hordes of creatures (like Goblins), while you clear the way for Nought.

3. You have only two 3cc spell in the main list, does that feel like a solid number?

Pre-board I am not that concerned with the amount of 3-cc spells in my deck. You don't get out CounterTop all the time, Krosan Grip is mostly played pre-board (which, if properly done, can be played around counterbalance) and spells like vindicate can still be countered with force/daze. I am considering adding a single Crucible in the main, although for now I don't know what to cut for it.

Your showing was very impressive for a 156 person tourney so obviously the list is sound. Are there any changes you would make based on the tourney at this point?

Thank you! There aren't any drastic changes I've come up with so far. The maindeck is very tight and felt good all day. I think it suites my playstyle and perception of what this deck wants perfectly. As I already mentioned, I am looking at the possibility of adding a single (or maybe a 2nd sb) crucible in the deck.

About the sideboard, 3 Firespout, 2 Rebs, 3 Grips and 2/3 Hydroblast are definite stayers. Needle wasn't exceptionally good, but is a good catch-all. I haven't really used the graveyard hate, but that was because of my matchups.

So I've piloted Dreadstill to a first place finish at the GP Chicago Trial. There were 156 players as I was told and I was playing an Ur variant that is very similar to Roodmistah's build.

I played the following decklist to a 6-0 followed up with 2 draws in the Swiss and then found my way through the top 8. Resulting in a 9-0-2 score at the end of the day.

Again, congratulations on your awesome performance! Dreadstill has shown itself to be one of the best decks out there. You had no losses, and my only loss was in the mirror.

Lands: 21
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Mishras Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic Island

Creatures: 7
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

Spells:32
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Daze
2 Trickbind
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard: 15
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
2 Blood Moon (MVP)
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

The main reason I added green was for Krosan Grip and the Aggro Matchup. How do you deal with a resolved Counterbalance? Or does it simply not resolve? I notice you play only 2 BEB and 2 Pyroclasm, against my 3 Hydroblast and 3 Firespout. Combined with no Goyfs, how hard are Aggro matchups? Crucible-factory recursion might jump in here of course.

Ugr Dreadstill(DKK) 2-1
Those were very close games and I really think he should have had an edge postboard as he had access to Krosan Grip(but I have Crucible which is also very strong). However I could win game 3 because I had some tempo advantage so I could swing a couple of times with a pair of factories. When he got to slip through a Dreadnought I had him down at 4 life and a Crucible on the board. Mishras keep him from attacking and eventually won.

(Those very very tight and close games and it could have turned out the other way round as well)

Well said! I saw you unboarding after your match with the Merfolk player so I knew you had Crucibles (thought only in the board, so I was somewhat surprised to see one G1, which won you). I think the green splash dreadstill should have an edge postboard (a small one) because of Goyf as an extra beater and of course Grip, which should give me the opportunity to neutralize your Crucible/CB/Nought. I just couldn't get there those games. Very well played. They could have gone either way indeed.

For me the board worked out quite well, but what do you think about it?
I think this deck is a very good choice in the current metagame because it is very consistent and plays a lot of basic lands which is very important in the times of Team America and Canadian Threshold.
It can execute a very strong gameplan while also being highly disruptive and is very well equipped to deal with Ad Nauseam Combo. Of course there is also a number of bad matchups and problematic cards for Dreadstill but with a good and innovative sideboard there are only very few problems we can not handle.

Can you elaborate on your general boarding strategies? I'm curious if there are big differences with my boarding plans.

@ DKK: Nice you won the ticket to Chicago as I can't go and the Threshold player who finished second place doesn't go as well.

Now at least a Dreadstill player goes! :D

[Rood]

Wow guys, really impressive job in the tournament. I'm glad to see Ugr doing well and that Ur list looks really great. I see you only made a few changes to the SB but I have to agree, Crucible is really tight. Miss E-truth at all? That's probally one of my favorite SB cards TBH. Good work. I'll see you in Chicago?

-Edit: does anyone else find it funny that DKK's Dreadstill list lost to only the mirror? lol

[Rodney]

@ Roodmistah: Since the Maindeck is almost always identical to the version Ur, What is your sideboard at the moment? Which deck or protect you prefer to have answers to the threats?
MU as the calculations of the deck? Thanks

[Muradin]

My plan against Tombstalker is exactly what Van Phanel said. I found the Echoing Truth quite useful against Stalker and Chalice, but often they were also lacking. Postboard I rather like to board in the Moons and Relic is a beating against Team America as they make both of their threats extremely bad. Goyf gets really small and they will have difficulties in playing tombstalker early on before can gain control of the game.
For me mutliple relics were better than Echoing Truth in this matchup as well as against Ichorid where I always boarded Echoing Truth as well.
Of course if Staxx is in your meta Truth is probably very good as we don't have removal for artifacts with higher converted mana cost in the Ur build.
For me the 2nd Engineered Explosives in the sideboard was very important in some matches I played against Dragonstompy on a tournament the day before the trial in Utrecht (went 4-1 in swiss but lost to mono W Control in the top 8)

Considering the Aggro matchup you are probably right that Firespout is superior to Pyroclasm most of the time as it can kill Mongoose, Wild Nacatl and Kird Ape as well (and those cards see play in Goyf Sligh and some random aggro) and has cc3 for Counterbalance. I am quite happy with my maindeck at the moment but will still have to tweak my sideboard.
I didn't have that big difficulties preboard as most aggro decks lose against a resolved Dreadnought preboard which is my primary goal in those matchups.
Goblins are actually really hard (especially postboard) because they have so much removal and very diverse mana costs to dodge Engineered Explosives, but most other aggro decks were at least ok for me in play testing.

I don't think the green splash is necessary though definitely a possibility because with Engineered Explosives you can handle the most commonly played artifacts and enchantments (Counterbalance [pay more than 2 mana to resolve it], Dreadnought, Vial, Chalice) as well. In general i felt that Counterbalance for sure is very strong when resolves but often it an still be destroyed by explosives as most decks playing CB (except this one) don't play Stifle and can't use the Counterbalance in the CC3 section. So you practically have 4 outs preboard (Mage and Explosives itself) and 5 postboard to make the whole plan more reliable (in case you already used your first explosives)
Grip is nice but for me 6 basic lands in the deck are absolutely awesome as you can't just play Blood Moon without them.
Especially as Team America is very popular at the moment together with Aggro Loam and Canadian Threshold you win many games because you are playing such a big number of basic lands.

My boarding plans were actually not 100% determined before the tournament as I have a low opinion of following sideboard plans like a robot.
However I often board out 3 Dreadnought and 2 Trickbind if I feel my opponent has so much removal that winning early will be very hard. (for Crucible, Moon, Relic, Explosives, Blasts... Whatever I need in those matchups.)
Against most decks running Standstill I take out my own Standstills because with Decree of Justice they win the Standstill fights most of the time and you can not reliable drop it if they just go on to draw some more Mishras and Wastelands than you do.
Against decks like Staxx/Dragonstompy I take out 3 Counterbalance and 1 Top for Explosives and what else I need in those matchups (Dragonstompy: Blasts, Staxx Crucible, probably a relic.)

I am rather sceptical considering determined sideboarding for certain matchups as you always have to consider the differences between your opponents build of the deck and the build you did your testing against. Furthermore it can be done based on common sense most of the time really well and everybody who knows his deck will easily find out what is good and what is bad against the deck you are playing against.

[Rood]

So I think we can agree then Muradin that Ponder isn't necessary in the Ur list? At list I don't see it making it any stronger than it already is, maybe in Ugr builds like DKKs.

Also never board out 3 Dreadnoughts, always keep 2 in..I found in testing you almost want 2 postboard even if you're going against heavily dedicated control.

[DKK]

-Edit: does anyone else find it funny that DKK's Dreadstill list lost to only the mirror? lol

I had thought of this myself . However, I felt like the mirror was a close match which either deck could have won. As stated before, my advantage lies in Krosan Grip and Tarmogoyf, while his advantage are the Crucibles.

I think both Ur and UGr are good deck choices. Your playstyle and your meta should determine which deck you want to play.

The way I see it now Ur has a better matchup against decks like Team America, while UGr has a better Goblins matchup. Both have their pros and cons, but both are clearly good decks.

So I think we can agree then Muradin that Ponder isn't necessary in the Ur list? At list I don't see it making it any stronger than it already is, maybe in Ugr builds like DKKs.

I think I agree with this statement. Ponder is better in UGr than in Ur because of Goyf. But if you want to speed up the Ur deck Ponder enables more turn 2/3 protected Dreadnoughts. If that is where you want to take the deck I suggest adding it.