Have you guys ever played against multiple hate cards? It seems like you guys have never sat down and seen an Arcane Laboratory, Gaddeck Teeg, Ethersworn Cannonist, Runed Halo or Meddling Mage. Chain of Vapor is amazing, you should give it a second shot instead of dismissing it based on first Impressions. It's never a dead card since it creates mana, storm and Threshold. I've used Chain of Vapor as a storm engine against Aggro so that I didn't have to Ad Nauseum or Ill-Gotten Gains and die to Burn.
Bruenor- Please explain your changes? Seriously, why the hell would you cut a Rite of Flame? Makes no sense. For a land none the less.
Bryant,Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
First off, I agree with your statements about chain of vapor. It has a shitload of uses.
I dropped a rite of flame and 1 nauseam to run +1 land, +1 mystical. Im not saying they will be permanent changes, I just want to run this configuration to see how it helped the flow of the deck. I went through 6 hands last night that had NO land in them whatsoever. Even mulling to 4 cards gave me no lands. That makes we want to up the land count, at least to see how my opening grips are benefitted. the addition of 1 mystical makes getting all of the other pieces of the puzzle easier. The loss of the 1 rite of flame seems minimal. Ill try it out for 100 hands or so and see what setup I like better. If I was going to keep the rite, I would probably -1 ponder. I think the deck could use the extra land
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
You've read Rite of Flame right? You want to play the maximum number possible to achieve the greatest potential out of the card.
While I haven't tested this extensively, the original list I bounced off Bryant was +1 Mystical Tutor, +1 Ponder, +2 Land in place of 1 Ad Nauseam, 1 Cabal Ritual, and 2 Duress. It sounds like the changes you're making come pretty close to the list that Bryant originally rejected after testing saying that the extra lands were never good for him. I imagine he can expand more on that, but I'm willing to take his word on it enough to not revert.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I didn't reject your list at all, I said it was very interesting and it's what made me retest Mystical. I just didn't care for the extra land. I've top 8'd the last two weekends with a total of 5 mulligans. I think it's safe to say that my list was doing fine with land. If I was to make room for more land it'd be -1 Cabal Ritual for land 11, then after that Duress.
I have no form of luck at all, it does not matter how many hands I goldfish with any of the builds or how many times I rifle shuffle or pile shuffle the deck, I simply can't pull off 10 lands. And I am not doing anything wrong, I know how to play the deck, but I will not reliably get the deck to function right with 10 lands (people who know me can account for this, I have just unnatural bad luck). I upped the land count to 14 at one point and that was way to many. I settled on 12. 12 just feels like the right number and will have no where near the dramatic effect 14 would on Diminishing Returns.
@emidln: My current list is posted here and on the storm boards, check it out if you are looking for a good starting point for TES with more lands.
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
This is what I meant to say. I was trying commenting about the lands and how you tested the extra lands and decided that they weren't necessary. Sadly clarity is eluding me today. :(
@ Pulp_Fiction
I simply don't believe that TES wants more lands. My test list was designed because I kept hearing posters squabble about Mystical Tutor vs Ponder. I brought up to Bryant in IM that he could probably play both and suggested a (very greedy) list that had 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm, and 3 Mystical Tutor in it. He did a lot of work testing and tuning it (eventually cutting and extra two lands that I added on the assumption that the list was slowed down enough to need to hit additional land drops (which turned out to be an incorrect assumption)) and then played his list to a great finish. After thinking about it quite a bit, I think adding lands to TES is fundamentally wrong because it moves you into a position where you are no longer attempting to just beat first tier disruption but you also run into second tier disruption and pressure from threats like burn, combat damage, and enemy win conditions. I don't think that TES is very well equipped to handle the extra disruption and pressure and would design the deck in a fundamentally different way (skipping ANT entirely to the slower Doomsday model) if I was going to play in such a way as to invite hate (which I think adding land that slows you down does). If you want to talk some more about it, I've written quite a bit about this that I can copy/paste you.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
Reading an interesting post of emidln in the DDFT thread I was thinking about our strategy in the control matchup.
Emidln says, to sum the relevant part, that his experience shows that the more the game is a long one against counterspell- based decks, the more his chances of winning are high. This is due to:
#1- The high digging power the deck has (1 more cantrip than we do, 2 more Mysticals and 4 more tops)
#2- The ability of the deck to constantly hit land drops.
#3- Most of their disruption becomes worse as the game progresses: Daze is not a hard counter anymore and spell snare could be easily circumvent in FT, FoW is making card disadvantage even if you have some lands open (counterspell is better here).
It's obvious that we can count less on #1 cause our cantrip base is smaller, and we can't absolutely count on #2 cause we're playing 10 lands, and most of them are a mess when used too often (Mine dies, CoB/orchard are dealing us a lot of damage).
#3 doesn't work that well too, because unless we're chant protected, Spell Snare and Stifle are going to be a mess unless we're planning to go for AN, which becomes worse and worse as time passes by.
So, we absolutely don't want to go in the middle late game, cause our deck sucks in the late game, due to our lands and AN being worse and worse with turns passing by, and our chances decreasing as our opponent makes land drops and plays more and more problematic permanents (like counterbalance) and builds a hand of counterspells.
We wanna win when the opponent is counter-light, and try to be the aggressor.
That said, I wanna discuss our possible protection cards in the control matchup:
Orim's Chant:
Pros: It nullifies every counter disruption that's not Counterspell/Fow, can be used as test card, then go off next turn with one mana more and 1 less counter/chant in oppo hand. Forces non-interaction (that's what we want, to play solitaire).
Cons: It costs W in the combo turn.
Duress:
Pros: Doesn't cost mana on the combo turn. It's on color. It can take both counters/chants or permanents.
Cons: It takes just 1 card, so it's not great against opponents with multiple hate cards in hand. If not used on the combo turn, brainstorm can hide the cards we wanted to take.
Pyroblast:
Pros: Can both counter counterspells and CB. Can deal with blue permanents (like Meddling Mage and, to a lesser extent, CB)
Cons: It costs 1 mana on the combo turn, unless countering/destroying permanents. It's a nombo with hellbent cards (both IT and LED). It's BEBable. Doesn't work against Chant.
Vexing Shusher:
Pros: It's uncounterable. It makes our spell uncounterable, forcing near non-interaction. It beats for 2. It's great with Pyroblast against CB, and good with Chant.
Cons: It costs 2 mana + 1 mana per activation in the combo turn. Chants, Burn, Extirpates, Stifles, etc can still be played. It's BEBable, EEable, Needleable and Stiflable. Can't be tutored with Mystical.
Xantid Swarm:
Pros: It forces non interaction. Doesn't cost mana on the combo turn. It's re-usable, until answered.
Cons: It's stiflable and quite easily EEable. Doesn't have effect on the game until the turn after you played it. Nombo with upkeep sac LED + AN. Can't be tutored with Mystical.
Post SB the opponent is likely to get rid of their useless stuff like creature hate and board in some more relevant cards (blue cards for force, BEB, Chants, EE, whatever).
What about us?
Consider those factors:
- we're usually boarding in 4-5 cards against control (usually Shusher and Pyroblast)
- we're boarding out some number of cards between acceleration and cantrips
- our probability of having a 0-1 lander is 60%, while the probability of having a 2+ lands is 40%. This is not counting Wastelands your opponent might have, that are frequently played in blue decks (Dreadstill, Landstill, Tempo Thresh, TA)
- we still wanna win in the first turns of the game, cause our plan can't change post SB (#2 and #3 are still valid, while #1 becomes even worse).
The question is: why the hell are we playing Shusher?
- 60% of the time we'll need acceleration to cast it. It costs some mana on the combo turn and we already sided out acceleration.
- The opponent is likely to side in cards against him that are also useful against other cards in our deck (yeah, BEB).
- we can't reliably win fast while playing shusher due to the amount of resources it needs, thus working against our game plan.
Some might argue that it's our out against Counterbalance so we have to play it, but I don't believe it.
- The faster we'll kill, the less the probability the opponent has to play counterbalance. the opponent will draw CB by turn 2 the 44% of the time (57% if he brainstorm/ponder). This without counting the possibility of being manascrewed/color screwed (it happens especially to Dreadstill). The probability lowers if the opponent is looking for a FoW-protected hand too.
- We can discard CB with Duress.
- We can counter it with Pyroblast.
- We can destroy it with Pyroblast with a lot of luck.
- We can go off through it if the opponent reveals chaff (3cc, Fow or 1cc when we have 0-2 cc in hand) and doesn't have SDT or Brainstorm. Really needs luck.
The only thing that Shusher adds to the equation is:
- You have both shusher in play (remember the 2cc), a pyroblast in hand, and RR open. The probability of having both in hand by turn 2 is 10% (+2,5% each turn after), without counting possible mulligans, mana issues, and cantrips.
- You have shusher in play and LOADS of mana, I mean, really. Consider that if the opponent is countering all your 0-1-2CC spells with CB, you need to spend something like 7-8 red mana to get things through.
- EDIT: You can also have Mystical in hand and shusher in play, tutor (uncounterable) for a Pyroblast and play it uncounterable. Total cost: UR+UR+a draw step. Probability of having Shusher+Mystical: 4% first turn +2% each turn.
Probability of having either Shusher+Pyroblast or Shusher+Mystical: 12% in the first 8 cards, +3% each draw step.
So, I don't get how Shusher is helping our "win fast" plan at all. Can someone please explain it with a good and complete reasoning? I've heard some "I won many matches on the power of shusher", but that doesn't help me at all. Is there any fault in my observations?
Last edited by GreenOne; 01-19-2009 at 07:26 PM.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Agreed, the problem with Vexing Shusher is that it's slow and it's mana intensive, but more importantly it's antithetical to TES' game plan because it puts you into an "I have an answer for Counterbalance" mentality instead of a "I have a counter for Counterbalance" mentality, that's why Duress and Red Elemental Blast are just so well suited for this deck.
I honestly feel the same way about Orim's Chant, especially now that you've got Mystical Tutor to dig for it.
Yeah. I'm testing a SB with 2 Duress, 2-3 Pyroblasts, 3-2 Xantid Swarm. I'm really happy with Swarm and Duress. Duress also shines in every non-blue matchup. What's your configuration?
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
4 Duress and 1 Orim's Chant MD, 4 Red Elemental Blast and 1 Thoughtseize SB. Tho' I'm running the 4 Mystical Tutor, 0 Infernal Tutor and no MD WinCon set up, so I get more mileage out of 1 Orim's Chant than the other configurations.
I've also tried some more unorthodox configs, like boarding in the full sets of REB and Pyro and boarding out Chrome and LED to see if I could out counter the aggro-control decks and win before Goyfs rolled me over.
No maindecked win condition? This seems really sketchy. The most solid way for this deck to win is Ill-Gotten Gains loop
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
You can do it anyway with IT+2xLed.
LED, LED, IT, IGG, LED, LED, IT (break for RRRBBB), Burning Wish, Tendrils
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
NOTE: he said NO IT main. Burning wish is his only out...
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Yeah, the problem is Mystical Tutor is better against control than Infernal Tutor, and you should be winning your aggro match ups regardless. Infernal Tutor is just a kill condition, it's worthless until you're ready to win, where Mystical Tutor can serve roughly the same purpose as Infernal Tutor while finding you the cards you need to put yourself into a position to win.
It's just different, personally I like mulliganing less.
@greenone: Well thought out. I don't really see and fault in the logic. I do prefer Swarm to Shusher. The SB is always mete dependent, but 3x Swarm just feels right. I personally don't like Duress very much because everyone who has ever run a combo deck with Duress has cast it and seen something like: FoW, CB, Daze, Stifle, Goyf etc. And you look at the hand and think .... fuck, it gonna be a little while. Swarm would ravage that hand, especially if you are still running Simian Spirit Guide. I love 2 in the deck, it really helps you play against Daze and get another initial mana source off of AdN. I have also hardcast it in dire situations and turned it sideways! This is the SB I am currently playing and I am very satisfied with it:
1x IGG
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Cleanfall/Slaughter Pact
1x Slaughter Pact/Wipe Away/Chain of Vapor
2x Shattering Spree
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Pyroblast
The SB configuration changes. It just dawned on my that if you play Cleanfall in the SB, Enchantress is literally a bye. Just Burning Wish for it the turn before you are trying to go off then cast it next turn and go nuts, they have no instant answers, and no clock! So if Cleanfall is in the SB I prefer to run either 1x Chain of Vapor or 1x Wipe Away as an answer all type card. Another configuration, the one I still prefer, just running 2x Slaughter Pact. My meta has some Gaddock Teegs, True Believer, and other obnoxious creatures showing up now and again and Slaughter Pact kills them on the turn you are going to combo off, adds storm, and costs nothing!
I still hate Chain of Vapor since it is unable to answer a Chalice @ 1 and won't run it because of that. I really like having 1x Wipe Away in the side as an additional answer to Counterbalance. And as far as mid-late games go, I really think playing 12x lands greatly helps, as well as making mulligans less painful.
@ Breathweapon: If it works .... play it I guess, but with your list you are now making Meddling Mage an answer me NOW card or lose. I much prefer Infernal Tutor to Burning Wish in this deck and recently upped the count to 4. I used to run 3x Burning Wish and 3x Infernal Tutor but found out I needed 1x more. 4x Infernal Tutor is very important. You could absolutely get away with 3, no questions, but 0, I dont know. It is just great on those double LED + IT hands where you have the option to IGG loop (maybe you can only generate 9 storm and need more) or go the AdN route. Mystical Tutor really does slow the deck down. You could probably get away with playing 3x, but as a 4x of you might as well not play TES anymore. Try and build some U/B/r AdN Hybrid deck that runs 14-16 lands and runs the all important basic lands!
EDIT: YAY, post #400, WOOT!!
"I just shot Marvin in the face!"
"Why the fuck'd you do that??"
Infernal Tutor isn't that much faster than Mystical Tutor, as long as Mystical Tutor sets up for the second turn win it's fine IMO. Meddling Mage isn't a big deal, for whatever reason I don't see Meddling Mage MD any more and if they name Burning Wish they fail pretty hard.
I could go either way, IT isn't bad by any means.
Breathweapon - What happened? What made you decide to cut Infernal Tutor? Playing 4 Mystical and Chrome Mox seems awful, your hand must be gone incredibly fast versus control. No maindeck win condition is frankly dumb, you're back to scooping to Meddling Mage. Since you cut infernal, you cut Ill-Gotten Gains I'm assuming? You're no longer playing TES, but ANT with a 5c manabase.
Speaking about control, what are you people doing? I understand Shusher isn't incredibly fast, but have you played against control/aggro control? It normally goes into the mid-game. This is where Shusher shines. I took 3rd again this past weekend in Binghamton with a changed list. I cut paradise for a 2nd Forbidden Orchard. I lost 2 games in Hadley the previous weekend because my hand consisted of Mystical, Paradise, LED, Mox, (Black card), then irrelevancy. I couldn't end of turn Mystical for Nauseum win. The second change I made to was to the sideboard, I cut 1 Blast, 1 Duress for 2x Xantid Swarm. This Brings my control package to...
4x Orim's Chant MD
2x Duress MD
2x Pyroblast SB
2x Xantid Swarm SB
2x Veing Shusher SB
1x Wipe Away SB
I normally board out..
2x Infernal Tutor
2x Cabal Ritual
1x Chain of Vapor
1x Duress (Makes Burning Wish better postboard)
1x ? Ponder
I like to keep the sideboard diverse, makes it harder to hate on. You don't always have to board it all in, if the opponent is playing blue but no balance I don't bring in Shusher or Wipeaway. Unless I lost game one, in which I try to stop blue as much as possible.
Also, someone mentioned boarding out Rite of Flame? I think this is a terrible idea, we need all the mana we can get. Although I haven't tested it, because well, it seems ridiculous. I rarely have Rite of Flame blasted, most of my opponents try and save them for Burning Wish/Shusher.
The problem I had with shusher against balance is that you need a hand with a quite high number of lands to take advantage of it, and the deck can't reliably mull for a hand with lands. What I did not consider in my analysis is that the Mystical->Wipe Away/Pyroblast can be an added way of removing CB. Seems slow as hell and costy (total cost UR+UR+a draw step) but it works.
The questions I wanna ask you are:
- what percentage of games are you winning if a counterbalance lands?
- what percentage of games are you winning if a counterbalance lands and you have a shusher in hand/play?
I believe this is the only way of knowing if it's worth it.
Meanwhile, I updated my previous post with added probabilities:
You're surely better than me with shusher, so maybe I missed some more tricks.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
There's a difference between a win condition and a kill condition, your win condition is Ad Nauseam, your kill condition is Burning Wish, and Meddling Mage on Burning Wish is irrelevant when Ad Nauseam draws you into your tutor/bounce. As long as Meddling Mage has to choose between Ad Nauseam and Burning Wish, you're usually fine, and you can always board in a Tendrils of Agony as they board in Meddling Mage.
Note: Meddling Mage isn't MD in my meta
Yeah, if you define TES by the presence of Infernal Tutor, then I'm playing 5cc ANT. I don't seem to have a problem with -CA with both Chrome Mox and Mystical Tutor, usually I don't play either of them until I'm trying to win the game. It only becomes a problem when I have to dig for Orim's Chant and I only have one land etc., but I've gotten use to playing both of them in ANT and it doesn't really seem that bad any more.
I'm not saying this is the way TES should go, I'm just saying it's a viable way for TES to go, and it's what I'm playing at the moment.
Edit: Thank god you cut Undiscovered Paradise, that card has fucking sucked forever.
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