I really can't say that in a format of huge, evasive, or undercosted creatures that a 3cc that comes back (weaker) and splashes your life total is really going to gain much in the way of tempo.
The other problem I have with it is the necessity to have BB and GG available fast. The deck's core is black, the green splash serving solely as utility. The only cards that make sense as GG in casting because of this are Witness (recurs the black spells), and Terravore (the win condition), because they only take up 5 slots in the deck.
Yes, Finks is nice in that it can come back, and it can gain you 4 life in the meantime. But it's a 3cc spell that really just gains you a little life. It's not a clock like Terravore, and it's not utility like STE or Witness. I would argue Shambling Shell has just as much purpose in the deck because of it's ability to make your minor threats bigger, and functions as backup Loams for dredge purposes.
But even then, I probably wouldn't say to put it in.
Originally Posted by YuanTi
First off I'm glad that someone else loves the Finks.
@ ET (Eternal Witness?)
I only wanted to see them in the games that go on for a while. Then they could be used to recur removal or threats. They weren't really that usefull, so I a trying additional discard in their place.
@Smallpox
I was trying them out to have some additional edict effects. Now some Diabolic Edicts might become Smallpox, or the Smallpox may become Chainer's Edicts.
Goyf is really terrible in these decks because you play him as a wall against aggro on turn two and then they kill him because he's a Squire. Baloth is better.
Playing Tombstalker in your Death Cloud deck is wtf. So is Terravore. Your creatures should be guys that stave off death early because pretty much anything is good post-Cloud, and you have Harvest going long.
re: Harvest: Crypt and Extirpate are both very good against your deck. Consider adding Burning Wish.
Smallpoxing an aggro deck is completely and totally insane.
I might add a fetchland but I might not. I would probably cut a Bayou if I did. I would definitely run all four Wastelands and all eight cycling lands and would consider 26 lands to be the bare minimum.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
If we're talking about changing the win condition, consider Haunting Echoes. Even Smallpox -> Haunting Echoes seems worth doing, but it will often be much better than that.
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Echoes is a lot worse than Harvest because of Retrace and Harvest's ability to let you come from behind.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I only play one Harvest because I never want to see more than one. Because there is only one Harvest I don't want to count on it as the only win condition. Cycling into a big dude after Cloud is just as good as Harvest. In fact I don't even need Loam. I can just leave one threat in my hand after Cloud. I like not needing Loam to win. It means that Crypt and Extirpate are only a real problem for Vore and Stalker. If I can't have them I can always go Finks FTW.
Don't kid yourself, without Loam your deck is really loose. We were seriously considering Shred Memory just to have more Loams in the Extended version.
edit: you can also dredge into Harvest really fast if you're trying, and my point about Tombstalker not being very good on defense in your deck remains valid.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I agree with you frogboy. His creatures should be playable early which makes tombstalker inviable. Try tarmogoyf. Also, running smallpox without evasive creatures is dumb. For the hundredth time, run sinkhole. You will be surprised how often sinkhole will lead to a mana screw. It also is just two to take away a continuous source of mana. It repays itself during the untap phase of the opponents turn after next. That thing said earlier about pox being an aggro spell is fail. It's the most potent CONTROL spell in the game. Just because it generates it's advantage when it hits play and kills a bunch of stuff does not mean it's aggro. This is why pox has a chance versus combo while aggro is horrific versus it.
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
Tarmogoyf, as stated earlier, is still bad.
Have you ever actually cast Smallpox after your opponent opens on Wild Nacatl? It's a really good feeling.
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
I have, in a deck called pox and later in my twist on that deck, discipline pox.
feefox: each card in hand!!!!
ridicolous
only fortune
Thank you for telling me about your other decks. That post was extremely relevant to this thread.
Also, I don't want to drop early creatures. I want to kill my opponents stuff, then drop a dude and beat.l
Way to read only what you want. If you agreed with Frogboy, you'd realize exactly why Tarmogoyf is bad here: he's a wall. That's it. Baloth on the other hand, might be exactly what this deck would be looking for. Slightly larger in cost than Finks, same need for GG, but a larger body and more life gain at your discretion. Worth looking into, I know Standard DC lists used to use a couple.
For the hundredth time, no. This isn't Pox, this is dedicated control. There's already enough potential tempo with Smallpox, Death Cloud, Loam, Wasteland, and STE. Cutting cards that are the concept of the deck to add in narrow land destruction isn't going to get it to the end game any faster.For the hundredth time, run sinkhole. You will be surprised how often sinkhole will lead to a mana screw. It also is just two to take away a continuous source of mana. It repays itself during the untap phase of the opponents turn after next.
Pox is an aggro-control deck. You know why it's distinguished as such?That thing said earlier about pox being an aggro spell is fail. It's the most potent CONTROL spell in the game. Just because it generates it's advantage when it hits play and kills a bunch of stuff does not mean it's aggro. This is why pox has a chance versus combo while aggro is horrific versus it.
It runs just enough disruption to have it's cheap aggro elements get through unhindered. Pox itself is synergy, pure and simple. Pox decks break that synergy by playing creatures that don't die to it, land destruction elements to further cut back the opponent's mana production, and discard spells to further eat it's hand. In other words, it's immune to it's own bomb.
The problem is, Pox isn't guaranteed at doing it's job alone, hence the additional 16-20 spells backing it. That's NOT control. Take the card out of a deck designed specifically around it, then come back and tell me it's the most potent control card out there, or that it's even control at all. You can't. You simply MUST break the symmetry, or be in the exact same position as your opponent.
However, the tempo gain from a single Pox is often game breaking BECAUSE of the fact the deck is aggressive at it's core. And this is also why it's got slightly better game against combo than pure aggro builds. Most of them just flat out don't pack any disruption. Land destruction, hand disruption, and a fast clock are all good against fast combo, while still having relatively solid options against pure control. Hence the rise of aggro-control in Legacy over the past few years.
Sorry to derail the thread a little bit e=mc^2, but I had to set it straight that Pox strategies do not belong here.
Baloth and Finks Both gain you 4 life. Finks has to come into play a second time, and Baloth has to die, so they both have their drawbacks. Also, by turn 4 Baloth won't be eating any Goyfs so the larger body doesn't matter there. Both Finks and Baloth can both block small tribal dudes. The extra power might end the game faster, but I chose finks because I could play it after a Death Cloud without needing another land drop. I realize that I should have Loam active by the time I play Death Cloud, But sometimes I don't.
Hey folks. I just thought I would tell you that I have been dinking about this sort of design myself. After working at it a bit, I actually went without Deeds. Instead I have Birds and Chrome Mox, and for Pete's sake, Tombstalkers, man. Chrome Mox is excellent in this deck with all the extra Loams and Crimes you tend to see. The acceleration is a really big deal too, and these cards make your recovery from Clouds so much better than the opponent. I actually have guys left over after Cloud most of the time. I think I might take Smallpox out though, for the same reasons.
Anyway, good luck
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Smallpox and Edict should be taking care of fast Goyfs, as well as STE (to block, at least). You don't need much more in the early game IMO, as that's already 10 slots to take on a 4 of. If you really fear an early Goyf, I'd suggest swapping those Edict's for targeted removal instead (or possibly looking into dropping Deed for spot removal, as a majority of extended lists have done...Deed is heavily mana intensive in pinch situations, you could afford to SB it for matchups where it's more than favorable for you to sit on it).
If you went that route, you'd have better control over what the opponent is getting rid of, which might help in the long run (especially against things like Thresh, where the 4/4 body can stall those Mongoose all day long). Baloth would most definitely not be a 4 of in this list either, unless you used it over Terravore for the late game. Another option is Garruk, which has seen heavy use in Ext lists because it's immune to your removal as well as being both acceleration and a win con in it's own.
There's a lot of options DC lists can use, I would probably say what your win condition is will end up being a more personal flavor. My main concern with the deck is that it has to be fast enough with stall/removal in order to put the game into DC range, and that's primarily what I'll be looking at with testing.
I would not drop all of the deeds from the main deck. It is the only MD answer to artifacts and enchantments, which is necessary with all the counter-tops around.
The main goal of a deck like this is to be as immune to CB/T as much as possible, not answering it. Threats should all be out of range of a flip, and the disruption should attempt to keep them from getting it to stick, not answering it when it does. And Deed only answers Counterbalance, most decks can dig and find another, especially using Top.
And Deed is not CB/T proof in itself. Dreadstill has 3cc, and so do most versions of Thresh, as well as ITF, having it's own Deeds as well. CB/T should be something you consider playing around, but not heavily worried about. This also is why I was urging putting in threats that are outside that range, such as Baloth/Garruk and Tombstalker. Death Cloud is already immune to it, whatever you play afterward should be also.
Counter-Top can hit Loam and raven's crime, making it hard for you to force a Death Cloud through countermagic, or dredge through the deck. Also deed solves a fast army of little dudes and any random artifact/enchantment shenanigans like Quinn. I like keeping 2-3 in the MD.
EDIT: Deed answers CB and top at the same time.
The main goal of a deck like this is to be as immune to CB/T as much as possible?4 Life from the Loam
When in doubt, mumble.
When in trouble, delegate.
Deed only answers Top if they've already activated it for the draw, in which they'll still get the top card anyway. Aside from that, you'd need a Needle to keep it from coming right back next turn.
The card I was considering using in Deed's place was Damnation. Most decks would only get one or two swings in with a single big creature (or a few small ones, barring goblins) by the time this went online, and it's less mana intensive than Deed for clearing boards.
It might still be good to have anyway, though not sure if it's really necessary, and what other options would be good to swap for it.
I was also considering looking into Mox Diamonds. They keep making me feel like they belong here, much like in Aggro Loam, to speed up the deck just a tad, and make better use of Loam and Death Cloud/Smallpox. Have you looked into testing them yet?
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