It also destroys things that can be activated in response.Originally Posted by sauce
Umm, what commonly played removal is there that doesn't kill Spiritmonger but kills Tombstalker.
Ignoring the mirror matchup, here are the most commonly played removal spells in this format...
Swords to Plowshares
Snuff Out
Oblivion Ring
Lightning Bolt
Wrath of God
Runed Halo
Moat
Diabolic Edict
Smother
Humility
Out of all these cards, there isn't a SINGLE removal spell that kills Tombstalker but doesn't kill Spiritmonger, NOT ONE!!!
Meanwhile, Tombstalker ignores Moat while Spiritmonger does not.
So exactly why is Spiritmonger more resilient than Tombstalker. In this format, it really isn't.
Meanwhile the fact that Tombstalker is essentially 2cc AND has evasion/gets around blockers to kill in just four turns makes it an all around superior threat imho.
the problem w/ tombstalker in the rock is that it nukes your yard... that effectively shrinks goyf and also messes up the synergy w/ eternal witness.
obv tombstalker is a potent threat, but its not worth the whole goyf/eternal witness getting messed with.
this deck is not the beatdown, it needs to play the thorough control role and then put the opponent in top deck mode while beating often with 1-2 creatures on the ground thanks to vindicate/swords/deed.
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Goyf and Tombstalker play fine together. Ask anyone that plays Team America or Eva Green or any variant there of. Goyf feeds off your opponents yard, not just yours.
As for Eternal Witness, just don't delve the card that you would want to Witness back, delve the other stuff instead.
I'm not saying Tombstalker should be a 4 of. But I see no reason not to play 2-3 copies of it in the deck.
Playing Tombstalker + Deed/Eternal Witness/Vindicate/Kitchen Finks on turn five is a lot more broken than just playing Spiritmonger by itself turn five. And both plays will cost you the same amount of mana. But you essentially got yourself an extra turn by playing Tombstalker instead.
I personally opt to play Dark Confidant over Tombstalker and just run Living wish to grab him when I need him. That way you can still have a pretty intense draw engine and still be enabled to play Tombstalker.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
i just think with meta game running a lot of tombstalkers why not run spritmonger then you don't have to worry about trading blows with stalker...stalker just dies and monger gets bigger but no matter if you play monger or tombstalker the faster you get it out you put your opponent on the clock and that's what i like to see when i play this deck
Not every Rock plays witness, you choice what to delve etc.the problem w/ tombstalker in the rock is that it nukes your yard... that effectively shrinks goyf and also messes up the synergy w/ eternal witness.
Tombstalker is a great card due to the evasion it has. But if you prefer Spiritmonger it's your own choice and you should play that one then.
I got so tired of hearing this! Nothing against you Roodmistah ;). But running 2 to 3 Tombstalker along with 4 Confidant is NOT going to kill you. Every Rock plays 2 to 4 SDT's, a curve of 2 and 3 mostly with some higher CC and most of them play some lifegain as well. I myself play 3 Shriekmaw, 2 Tombstalker, 4 Confidant, 4 Thoughtseize, 3 Top, rest is 2 or 3 drops and have only died once to a reveal of a Tarmogoyf the last 11 Tournaments and that was against Goyf Sligh.I personally opt to play Dark Confidant over Tombstalker and just run Living wish to grab him when I need him. That way you can still have a pretty intense draw engine and still be enabled to play Tombstalker.
What about gigapede or grave shell scarab in place of spiritmonger? Rock is all about card advantage, and running the opponent out of answers, and these guys keep coming back, while growing your yard, and taking away nothing from goyf, i like them as finishers alot, they break the late game open if it comes to a stall
Has anyone else tested and/or had success with either fleshbag marauder or profane command?
I used to run Shriekmaw and stronghold/witness as my removal package, but found the increasing numbers of dreadnaughts and tombstalkers minimizing the usefulness of the goyf-muching lizard-snake. (the anti-synergy with bob occasionally hurt as well) I personally run explorer/therapy, and find fleshbag to be an excellent stronghold-synergistic edict, while providing an additional sac outlet for explorer, and occasionally trading with factories/mongeese. Both the snake and fleshbag live through deed, and while the lack of evasion is often problematic, the inevitability of recurring an edict with stronghold has won me many games, while also keeping me from running dead slots MB for the purpose of removing Mystic enforcers/tombstalkers/huge, scary things. I've never been a big fan of chainer's edict in rock, but I think this new edict on legs solves many of the problems the deck has with hard to kill dudes without being a dead card, and recurring via stronghold.
I use profane as my late-game finisher and improvised soft-lock. At even X=2, it can be cast after bouncing goyfs off each other and finsih theirs off while grabbing a confidant, ect from the bin. It helps in recovering from deed, and allways can be used as a drainlife/team fear. I also like the interaction with drain life/witness, as she grabs the profane and threatens to chump block to keep the cycle going. Many a gave have I won through two-for ones or slow life-draining eterna-blockers, and as a finisher, it only flips for two life off bob.
The superiour of those two is Gigapede as it beats up a goyf. On the other hand, it can be chumped and then it will die, even to a dumb 1/1. If I had to choose from Monger, Scarab or Gigapede I'd go for the Monger.What about gigapede or grave shell scarab in place of spiritmonger? Rock is all about card advantage, and running the opponent out of answers, and these guys keep coming back, while growing your yard, and taking away nothing from goyf, i like them as finishers alot, they break the late game open if it comes to a stall
Last sunday there was a tournament in the Netherlands, Around 130 players I think. Rock got 4th place and that list ran 2 Profane Command. I'll post the list or PM it if you want it.Has anyone else tested and/or had success with either fleshbag marauder or profane command?
As for Fleshbag Marauder, I run Shriekmaw and am still satisfied about them. One mana cheaper to use is better for me. But I run no creatures I want to sacrifice like Explorer or any other form of mana accel.
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Rock decklist:
profane command is amazing especially as a late game topdeck.
if they have no counter in hand, its GG
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It is relevant. I have seen Confidant kill people in almost every format. Flipping Tombstalker off of Confidant is something that has to be taken into consideration. Eight to the dome is a backbreaker, and decks that do run Tombstalker and Confidant usually want to win within the first five turns, but most Rock lists are different. If running them together in a slower-paced deck like Rock works for you, then go for it, but saying the interaction is irrelevant is an oversight.
I totally agree. The rock doesn't win fast enough to make the life-loss of confidant a non-issue (like zoo or combo decks), and doing large amounts of damage to yourself between fetch-lands and confidant can and will cost you games. It should be one (confidant) or the other (tombstalker) in this deck; together they are too risky.
The rock can easily support 2-(3) Tombstalkers together with Dark Confidant. U should play SDT obviously.. but its really not an issue. I've played those 2for years and never ever died due it. It's just a very good and undercosted effective beater with evasion. It also has synergy with Pernicious Deed and pple saying he conflicts with Tarmogoyfs are wrong,it shouldnt bother u.
Well, u should just try it out and then u'll see how superior TS is.
Even if I lost one out of every 10 games to a revealed Tombstalker, that's one less game I feel as though I could have won had I not revealed it. Basically if the chance is there I can take 8 to the dome with my own bob, I'll choose not to run Tombstalker.
UR Dreadstill creator and BRx WGD Combo Pioneer
1 out of 10 games is a higher probability than possible. Even when you drop Confidant turn2, have 51 cards left and are running 4 Tombstalkers the chance is less than 1/10. And even when that occurs it is not certain you'll die offthat damage.
But it's your opinion, if you don't want to play it then don't :). I'm just trying to point out that the effect of a few high CC with Confidant is overestimated.
Actually, we could do some calculation on it. The main diffrence is that when you draw more then one card with bob. Consider draw 3 blanks on turn 2 and forward with bob:
4/51 = 0.078 for the first draw, then a normal draw (not SDT/Tomb), second draw:
4/49 = 0.082 same for third:
4/47 = 0.085
If you add them together you get: about 0.25 chance. So once every 4 game you would have drawn a tombstalker in these cards. Dosen't sound to good, but I know that there are factors that minimize this, SDT being one. But still.
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
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World champion 93/94 2013
Keep in mind that those probabilities is assuming you run 4 Tombstalker and that you haven't drawn any of them in the previous draws. That's a big if.
Most people will run 2 to 3, I myself run 2 and that's probably the best number when running Confidant.
Don't know exactly how to do those calculations anymore :(. something like:
c((7/60)/(2/60)) for 7 cards drawn where there's 2 of that card.
You also need to combine that with having to have Confidant, no SDT etc. Probably very hard to calculate but it occurs not that often, I think 1/100 is more precise and even then it won't be sure if it will kill you.
I just did a worst case senario check, off course you seldom play 4 Tomb and 4 Bob, without no other relevant cards, like SDT. However, I did not take into account for drawn Tombstalkers, number of fetches/other card drawn etc.
If you run 2 Stalkers the chance are 0.125, 3 stalkers 0.19, 1 stalker 0.06. But as you said, there are plenty of other factors to add to consider.
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
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