So... I know that this archtype is just about dead, and that everyone and their mother hates braids, but this decks was hellafun back in the day:
Braids Control
lands//23
4 scrubland
4 wasteland
4 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
8 swamp
2 mishra's factory
creatures//13
3 braids, cabal minion
2 nantuku shade
4 dark confidant
4 hypnotic specter
spells//24
4 swords to plowshares
4 vindicate
4 sinkhole
4 thoughtseize
4 hymm to tourach
4 dark ritual
Back when I used to play this, thoughtseize would have been duress... but whatever.
I don't know why I posted this, but I did, so enjoy!
I just had a positive experience with Phyrexian Arena yesterday, so I thought I'd mention it here.
Just a small 16-man tournament, me running a build emphasizing on Ld, and Duress-effects, no Hymn. Tried Fulminator Mages, but they're out again for now. I felt that I had too little in the 1cc and 2cc range to make a nice curve up to Arena's 3cc.
Arena was a bomb. Only once was it removed (by Vindicate), besides being countered once or twice - so it was stellar card-advantage. The matches:
mono-B Sui - 1-2
SwansThresh 2-0
Merfolks 2-0
Eva Green 2-1
The Rock 2-0
--
UGw Thresh 2-1
Split prizes in the final (MossNought).
I'm eager to know how some of the matches (namely, 2x Thresh, and Eva Green) went...is a report coming up soon please?
Congrats on the finishing though!
Originally Posted by GreenOne
Thanks. Well I have plenty of spare time today, so why not? I kinda thought that it wasn't interesting reading material because of the relative few players, but I guess the separate match-ups are as interesting in small tournaments, as in bigger ones. I guess I should chalk up the decklist as well:
23 lands, Scrubs, Wastes, 4 Mire, 4 Windswept, 2 Swamps, 2 Plains, 2 Urborg - ToY, 1 Volraths Stronghold (I didn't need that second Urborg, and probably none at all. The manabase is pretty strong at 23 and only two colors. And I don't want to help the other guy too much)
4 E. Angel
3 Tombstalkers
3 Shriekmaw
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Sinkhole, Vindicate, Stp, TS, P. Arena
3 Duress
Side: 4 Relics, EE's, G. Prisons and 3 Needle.
The next time I sling this deck, I'll try cutting the Mages for 2 SDT, the fourth Shriekmaw and something else, probably Tidehollow Sculler x2, minus 1 Duress. Scullers just fit the cc, and Grunts won't work with Tombstalkers, and Relics from the side. I'm considering testing Duskrider Peregrine as well.
Ok.
First round: A guy i didn't know playing Mono B sui.
First game went my way pretty easily. His gas ran out, using double Ritual on double Hymn. Nasty, but threatless. The next two games I had troubles dealing with his Specters and Shades, and especially in game 3, I was drawing land constantly. (From the board: Prisons for Shriekmaws - a pathetic board - maybe should have been EE, but they would only have hit Shades)
Second round: A quality player, with SwansThresh.
Both games similar. I managed to disrupt his combo with Duress/TS, and Tombstalkers, I believe, raced his green critters (Angels were sworded or Bolted). It was pretty close and brutal, with a lot of meat (creatures) on the table. This, and the other separate games against Thresh and other Goyfs, I really enjoyed having some strong threats (7+3), and the Shriekmaws were marvellous in tight spots lategame, were it is critical to disrupt, but also to present a threat. (From the board Relics instead of Sinkholes maybe, not sure, maybe Mages)
Third round: Again a good player, with a strong Merfolk build.
These two games went my way, I must admit. First game I managed to hit his key lords and such, and put on a pressure with Angel, that he couldn't compete with. Second game he is in manatrouble, and its a walkover - EE sealed the deal. (Board: EE's for Sinkhole/Mages? Lousy memory)
Fourth round: One of the guys playing Eva Green.
Game 1 manadenial works for me, and Goyfs are eaten by Shriekmaws.
Game 2 he is too fast.
Game 3 is much like game 1. Board: EE's for Sinkholes probably.
Fifth round: One of the regulars as well, playing The Rock.
Manadenial is my friend once again, and I have answers for his threats. Key in these matches, were probably that I could hold him off too many Finks/Witness tricks, in part because I TS'ed them, and in part because of manadenial. Board: Relics for Mages)
Semi: One of the strong players again (Danish nationals finalist last two years) running UGw Thresh.
These were 3 long games, and we would certainly have gone to time, if played in the swiss. I lost the first game to two Mongeese, which I couldnt reply. He held me from applying Angel-pressure, with Swords and Counters.
Games 2 and 3 I managed to win on the back of Relics. I knew that with one or two of these bad guys online, he would have a weak pressure, so I could sit back and prepare a hand, that could defeat his counters and Swords. Shriekmaws and EE's were key-players as well. Board: EE's and Relics for Sinkholes and Fulminator Mages)
As you can read, my memory is tainted, but in general I felt that I had a strong hand, when I had an Arena, because it is foolproof strong by itself, and almost certain to stick to the table. Once or twice, I lured out Counterspells with Angels, so to stick the Arena. Any questions, feel free to ask!
Valarne, may I ask how Sinkholes have been playing for you? Since I noticed you have boarded them out in problabily 4 games. I an not a Deadguy Ale player myself, but a friend of mine is, and he asked for help with the deck. I was suggesting him to cut the Sinkholes, because in my view, it's a little outdated route in Deadguy, and I guess your bording out them agrees with me. Please let me know what you think.
Also, I read that Arena is that good. Just wondering if 4 Arena and 0 Confidant is the way to go.
Thanks.
I don't think that Sinkholes are outdated, and they oftentimes contribute to a win for me. Its just that most good players, in game 2 and 3, actively only hold hands with solid manabases, and fetch for basic lands as well. So the land destruction route becomes weaker, plus, there often is something stronger in the side, something that actively tries to handle their primary win-con or so.
I haven't tried running both Arena and Confidants, because if I run Arenas, I want to run all the high-cc bombs, that I otherwise opted to leave alone because of Confidant (Such as Tombstalkers, Shriekmaw and in part Arena itself)
Valarne:
why no Hymn? It goes better with your heavy LD plan (although you are abandoning that by cutting the Fulminators) than Duress/TS does. Anyway, based on the cuts you're planning to make, maybe you should try +4 Hymn, -2 Sculler, -2 Duress, just to see how it fits.
If this deck could remove the Dark confidant, there might actually be a chance to revive the deck
Phyrexian arena is a good idea, i believe.
First, why cut Dark confidant? To play better beater. If you want to play tombstalker, you have to cut dark confidant. Period.
assuming that you want to keep it only BW...
12
4 tombstalker
4 nantuko shade
4 hypnotic specter
removal 11
4 vindicate
4 stp
3 sinkhole
discard 8
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
other 8
4 dark ritual
4 phyrexian arena
mana 22
4 wasteland
4 scrubland
6 fetchland
8 swamp
this could be decent. I havent tested, obviously. Just suggesting. Tombstalker are definately a better threats than most creature played before. If the deck could splash green too, tarmogoyf would have to be in. I probably would cut the shade or specter for goyfs
Robert
@Valarne: Without any acceleration of any sort, though, your list looks a little slow if you are on the draw...Thoughtseize/Duress become far less powerful when an opponent gets to play a land (they can Brainstorm in Resp, or Daze it, or whatever), and your LD comes in a turn later and such...is there anything I'm not seeing here?
I asked myself the same question here. No D. Rituals and no Mox.
Then again, maybe the curve isn't bad.
1cc: Duress, TS, STP
2cc: Shierkmaw, Sinkhole.
3cc: go nuts.
But i guess i would try to find room for a couple or 3 Chrome mox.
Of cause, in most cases, you can just replace 3 Lands with Chrome Mox. The Problem is the Card-Disadvantage.
Can your Deck perform better by a margin, that is worth 1 Card?
Clearly, going First Turn Confi or Hymn is great, but how good is this Play on the Draw? Running your Hymn in a Daze is still a Problem, but you are allready 1 Card behind.
I still like Chrome Mox more than Ritual, cause you can at least use it more than once.
This build, without any acceleration, or Hymns, plays out pretty controlish. It doesn't have to be fast, but it does need to play important disruption in the first few turns. I really like Hymns, and I have played with 7-8 Hymn-effects before, really digging it. But as someone proposed earlier in this thread, Hymn is in a way counterintuitive when you're manascrewing your opponent, and he is sitting with 5-7 cards in hand. Duress-effects are still good at this point in the game, because you can search out the card in his hand, that is either gonna counter your keyspell, or that he is most likely to play when he draws his land. And Duress-effects are cheap, so they are gentle on your mana-needs, plus powerful first-turn plays. Besides, if a guy Dazes my Duress/TS, its cool with me.
I'm not saying that not running accel, is better than doing. It becomes a different deck - and which is better I don't know yet. Its also quite meta-dependant. I would say, that the build I am testing at the moment, is partially built to beat a Goyf-meta. The cc of most of the key cards is hard to Counterbalance or Spell Snare , and it packs a lot of Goyf-removal. In general, I don't think that accel is necessary, because of the great disruption available, but lifegain is, and thats one reason why I love Exalted Angel.
P.S: I would love to play Kitchen Finks, maybe two main two side, and I'm gonna try at some point, but the 3cc slot is too clogged for the moment, i believe. Tricks with either Shriekmaw or Finks and Volraths Stronghold is just great to have available, even though its lategame tricks.
I have to disagree with you. I tried 4Bob+1Stalker, 4Bob+2Stalker+2SDT, 4Bob+3Stalker+2SDT and 4Bob+3Stalker+3SDT setups. I can't remember flipping Stalker AND killing myself in the last ~230 testing games. Bob gives me strong opening and SDT asures me that in the middle game I will have best draws.
I'm not saying that Bob is a must right now. In my opinion there is no perfect decklist so you have to adapt to your metagame. Yeah nothing new but still. I can't decide which version is the best: Angel / Stalker, BoB / Arena ? I prefer BoB.
@EDIT About Sinkhole: I still like to have them in game one. I often side them out for game2&3 but not always. It all depends in what mathup you are. Now I;m trying to determine is it better to have additional discard/thread or sinkhole.
I had the same experience with 4 Bob, 3 Stalker and 3 SDT in one deck. 4 things have to come together tomake you lose by flipping Stalker:
1. You have to have a Confidant in play. And nearly any opponent will try to keep it off the board by any means.
2. That has to be combined with the odds for not having a Top in play together with the Confi.
3. If you are in that situation you have to hit a Stalker then ( odds for that are 3/60).
4. And finally the lost life of the flipped Tombstalker has to make you lose the game.
So overall you will very, very rarely lose a game due to flipping Stalker. Imo Confidant is the best card in the deck and Arena is much worse.
Your first two points show exactly why Confidant can be called into question.
1) a 2/1 creature is VERY easy to remove, especially when compared to an enchantment. We want to have those two cards per turn, and Arena is more likely to stick around than Confidant.
2) Confidant needs Top in order to be good, particularly if you want to run cards which are definitely worth having in the deck if not for it (ie, Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, Shriekmaw... even flipping a Vindicate or Hyppie is painful). Arena pings you for one regardless of what's on top of your library, and using Top/Fetch becomes a luxury, not a necessity.
Well said.
Sad thing is, Arena still pings you for 1 each turn, and sometimes, when your opponent has beaten you around abit with a Goyf or so, it's hard to survive long enough to kill them before your Arena kills you, seeing most opponents have many answers to our threats (which hardly have any protection themselves, I must mention)...
You can always Vindicate your Arena if you're that desperate. And Confidant also still pings you once in a while even with an active SDT. Both cards trade life for cards; the question is, which one does it better given this metagame and the current cardpool for this deck?
I just believe that Arena should be given a shot in this deck, as Legacy has long since adjusted to Confidant, which, aside from dying as easily as Kenny, also has lost synergy with what the deck wants to run now. Originally, the deck was full of cheap, versatile cards (Cursed Scroll, Hypnotic Specter), but now designs are leaning towards more expensive and explosive cards (Tombstalker, Exalted Angel, Shriekmaw), which has terrible synergy with Confidant. Sure, SDT improves this a lot, but this just means that two cards are doing the work of one.
I was thinking, if we play a Phyrexian Arena build (that is to say, without Bobs), would it be advisable to side out against Thresh Tops for Pithing Needle to name Top? (or should we keep it in anyway just because it is that powerful; and if so, what do we cut for Needle (if at all?)?)
I wouldn't want to board in the Needles. I'd rather focus on hitting their low number of threats. They have a lot of cantrips either way, so disabling their Top won't hurt them enough, I think. They run a maximum of around 10 creatures. 4 of them needs Edict or mass-removal. Relics and EE make sure that what they have is small, and is removable. Swords and whatever we have (Shriekmaw) can take care of stray Goys. By the way, in the Arena build, I think Wrath of God or Damnation is a good sb-card. Aggro is tough, and while EE and Wrath aren't too fast, they are still devastating when they hit - hopefully we have been able to Sword and 'Maw some early threats before this. Wrath becomes the sweeper at a time, when we are sure to have a Stalker or Angel ready in hand.
Actually I'm considering ditching Needles in the side, in favor of 3 Kitchen Finks. The stuff that Needles go in against, is often something we can deal with already (Vindicate and EE). Finks should improve aggro and burn-matchups (the latter almost an autoloss), and they can always come in, if something in the main seems weak. Finks is also tech against Mongeese. Running say 18 creatures post-board with Volraths Stronghold, and a lot of removal, makes it tough on Thresh. Only worry is the clogging of the 3cc slot.
Enough jabbering, I'll have me some breakfast!
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