You don't need the great furnaces just for the Ancient Grudge in the SB.Originally Posted by GUdrus
Go with:
-4 furnace
-2 nexus
+1 Tree of tales
+4 Darksteel Citadel
+1 Glimmervoid / City of brass
If there's no Wasteland/land destruction in your meta:
-4 furnace
+1 Tree of tales
+2 Darksteel Citadel
+1 Glimmervoid / City of brass
4x Master of etherium is needed. The card is the bigger beatstick in the format (beside sometimes maybe Crusher/Terravore/Dreadnough). Cut 1 Enforcer or 1 Drum for it.
Sideboard:
Ancient grudge simply sucks in the format due to the low number of Affinity decks and the high number of problematic Enchantments. Krosan Grip is on-color and the best solution for those.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
My brother was killed by a wild quote, you insensitive clod! - NC
Tarmogoyf bends over to our biggest problem just like most of the other creatures: Deed. In fact, Enforcer and Frogmite actually become champions in this situation.
And a double-post killed my father!! - NC
Zappa,
you don't feel like you have too much mana going on? That's a lot of vials/drums/lands in concert. It would be a different story if we had access to the original moxes where they add mana, become food for ravager, power out a yawgmoth's win and become food somore more, but that's not the case here. I think you could probably cut a land, a vial and a drum.
On a side note:
why do people insist on taking otu disciple/ravager? These cards are not only good in concert. They are the two most powerful cards affinity has at its disposal. They are game-winning together, but otherwise they are massive threats. Disciple gives you retarded reach, especially because permanents see each other go to the graveyard. Which is why vial is amazing because you can do tricks in response to mass removal (Tap out to deed your board, in response vial in disciple, game over). As 4reak has mentioned, removing these three cards is a terrible mistake and will cost you more games than other cards in those slots will win you. White is too clow/controlish. Blue is also too slow, but having 2/3 of Ancestral recall is too delicious to pass up. (Well, and with the addition of Master of Etherium, we can being even bigger beats).
Okay, I'll end my rant here.
Last edited by Nihil Credo; 01-13-2009 at 08:59 PM.
@Mans0011
You know, I have recently picked up this deck, like early december of 2008. I spent the time to read the discussions that was made here and the one at mtgsalvation also. I figured I'll try to learn from people's experience, especially since some of them have a clear long experience of playing the deck. While I may have only recently picked it up, I set aside al my other decks and kept playing only this. While I may not have much experience yet, I have a clear understanding what's important.you don't feel like you have too much mana going on? That's a lot of vials/drums/lands in concert. It would be a different story if we had access to the original moxes where they add mana, become food for ravager, power out a yawgmoth's win and become food somore more, but that's not the case here. I think you could probably cut a land, a vial and a drum.
As for the mana base, pretty much I just listened to 4eak's and GreenOne's opinions somewhere on one of the pages on this thread. Quite frankly though it has never really bothered me at all, though nexus at times I feel like I need to question. Since majority of the games I played I rarely get to use it (transferring counters on it), in case my board gets wiped.
But I feel like it's one of those necessary evil I need to take for "Just in case" scenarios. At time's I tend to have alot of mana, but I feel like running less would have mana issues. So I am just playing 18 and just treat the extra lands later as ravager food.
I don't know. Maybe it's because of the printing of Master of Etherium that they start thinking that it becomes less synergistic. But even back then without master, Cranial Plating is always somehting I love to see. Alot of my turn 3 kills were between a big damage boost from a disciple/ravager kill or a Plating/Master of Etherium kill.why do people insist on taking otu disciple/ravager? These cards are not only good in concert. They are the two most powerful cards affinity has at its disposal.
The only thing I feel somewhat unsatisfied with my list is that I feel that the 2 affinity beaters should be a count of 7, in combination of either 4/3 or 3/4 between Frogmite and Enforcer. As this is the two cards I feel most comfortable seeing when opponent drops a deed. The question of course is what to take out? 1 Nexus, glimmer or perhaps a drum? Cutting 1 vial I feel gets a big NO.
@ Everyone
None of my friends or people from a local store (more like 35 min away) play threshold. Those that have experience playing against it... how do we fare? Is it a really bad match up? Do I play cautiously or just go for the throat? I haven't played against the deck, and considering it's supposed to be a large portion of legacy I'm like...
We'll one of my friend plays or... supposingly plays threshold but I can't consider it one since it's not on its usual form yet. His mana base lacks the duals and fetches. But does anyone have experience versus a competent threshold deck?
@ Mans0011
18 lands and 4/4 of Vial/Drum is quite acceptable. I would have no problem with seeing a 20 land-base in Affinity, whereas I definitely would have a problem with a 16 land-base (unless you are running 4x Chrome Mox).
Where most aggro decks never want to see land beyond the 3rd or 4th, land almost always adds to the board beyond mana production in Affinity. It is always better to be safer with your mana base, especially when there is so much land destruction in the format.
I'm not saying Zappa can't afford to lose a land if he wanted to drop one, but I don't necessarily think he should. I mean, he doesn't even have Darksteel Citadel to answer any form of deed or LD, so a few more mana sources provide a bit more breathing room as well.
@ Zappa
I think you should run Darksteel Citadel. You have not splashed for a third color in your current list. This means you really don't have a good reason not to play DSCit.
You speak of Deed, then you should play DSCit.
Blinkmoth Nexus is probably dead. That card is gone, like Atog. It isn't a natural artifact, and the man-plan is just not worth the loss in synergy. Play Artifact Lands and rainbow lands.
Lastly, I've also found Homunculus is not great. I prefer Worker to Homunculus completely.
peace,
4eak
Having Tree of Tales for the sideboarded Krosan Grip is pretty much the reason why I have Tree of Tales, having 12 ways to produe 1 green colored mana is the reason why I wasn't running any citadels.
But I will take your word for it, but what would be an adviseable mana base? Given the deck list I am running:
4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Aether Vial
4 Cranial Plating
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
-2 Blinkmoth Nexus
-2 Tree of Tales
+4 Darksteel Citadel?
Atleast with this set up, when I boarded in Krosan Grip I'll still have 10 Ways to produce the necessary green to cast K. Grip, if possible I really wanna try to avoid dropping any less than that.
Is the alternate plan for putting the counters on blinkmoth nexus as a last resort and alternate win no longer needed? I understand the atog thing being obselete but I am not quite understanding the reason for the nexus though. Aren't there situations where you feel like nexus would be nice?
+ Can be one of the survivors after deed
+ Additional flyer to be equipped as well as attacking through Moat
+ Nice surprise with Master
+ Last resort for alternate win by putting modular counters on it
+ At worse its a 1 activation cost ravager food
What would you recommend for a better mana base?
4 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Ciradel
14 artifact lands with 12 ways to produce B/U mana and 10 ways to produce G.
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Glimmervoid
This set up has 16 artifact lands, potentially speeding up the deck more, but also becomes a double sided sword as well. Since there will only be 10 ways to produce each colors, which could potentially also lead to holding back cards unless a glimmer or drum comes down.
@ Zappa
Oops. I meant 4-colors, not 3-colors in my previous post, but the advice remains the same. Essentially, there are a few metagames where Affinity can be viable where Darksteel Citadel isn't absolutely necessary, and if important enough, could be substituted for a 4th color. Since you don't play a 4th color, you don't have a good reason not to play DSCitadel.
If you have deed in your meta, then I suggest this for a Ubg:
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Tree of Tales
3 City of Brass (Glimmervoid isn't a bad alternative at all, but for deed, CoB is better)
Although, I'm not opposed to your offer of 2 ToTales and 4 Rainbow lands, given your mana smoothing from 4 Vial/Drum, I would still suggest higher Artifact land count as opposed to the 4th CoB/Glimmervoid. You are still tweaking the deck for your meta though, so go for 4 rainbow if you want -- I can definitely see metagames where I would play 4 CoB.
I would not, however, go below the 3 rainbow lands. My testing has shown 2 to be the minimum, yes, but 3 has been the optimal number for us.
Definitely. But, there is a serious cost to not having the natural artifact land in its place. That opportunity cost is the reason I no longer play Nexus myself.Aren't there situations where you feel like nexus would be nice?
I love Blinkmoth Nexus. Like Shrapnel Blast, I am very sad to be forced to remove Nexus from the deck. A classic card is no longer worthy enough. I can name situations in which I prefer to have Shrapnel blast in my hand--however, most of the time, I prefer the cards which have replaced Shrapnel blast. Blinkmoth Nexus has the same problem.
Tally up the times you prefer the card to be Nexus or an artifact land--you'll be astounded how poorly the card compares to DSCitadel.
peace,
4eak
4eak,
I've been away from Vial Affinity for some months now, but I thought your previous incarnations only ran 3 vial and 3 drum. Has something changed? And yes, I forgot that 18 is the land count we're really looking for, I guess I was mostly referring to the number if vials and drums. I've been doing vintage testing and research, so not as much thought this way of the meta.
Hi Guys,
I've read a bit through this thread and I wondered why E.Canonist isnt used that much? Same goes for Swords to Plowshares (SideB)...
In Extended I play the Canonist main, and it helps me a lot since it slows the oppo down a lot. Could be the meta here or the different format of course
I had some more questions and some input, but i'll post that tomorrow. It's getting late over here
I was just thinking about the above...
PS.
By the way, I don't have much experience with Affinity in Legacy. I used to play Ichorid...
what does Vial Affinity and other Affinity decks / players think of the new card named Salvager Slasher?
Salvager Slasher
(common)
Artifact Creature - Human Rogue
Salvage Slasher gets +1/+0 for each artifact card in your graveyard.
1/1
looks like it may have really good synergy with Ravager in that you play this, then dump alot of creatures into the Graveyard with Ravager, and in the process get two really big creatures
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
@ mans0011
You are correct, I still run 18/3/3 for land/vial/drum. I consider it fairly optimal, although I'm not opposed to running more.
My only point was that 1 or 2 more mana-sources shouldn't be frowned upon. I'd be half tempted to go for the 19th land before I went for the 8th mana accelerant though.
@ Recon
For E-Canon, here is what I have said previously:
andI've tested him quite a bit. I love the card. I don't think he is aggressive enough, and in order to run in the main, Affinity variations will need to be adjusted. 8-ball, Erayo-Affinity, and AfFOWnity have the best chances of making a deck can truly abuse him.
E-Canon doesn't belong in the main of Vial Affinity, but if you chose to splash white instead of green, he could be a reasonable anti-combo card. It requires that you bastardize your sideboard to play against combo. You literally have to play 12+ cards against combo to even have a shot.
In my experience, E-Canon is a much stronger card in Vintage than in Legacy. While I love the card, I'm doubtful that this card will be finding a home in Legacy for a while.
I've tested the card, and outside of the combo match, he is not as powerful as the cards that he would replace. Whatever tempo he provides in the form of timewalks just doesn't make up the lack of damage. In the end, most decks are still just playing about 1 spell a turn anyways. Although it does damage cantrip engines, it isn't worth the loss in damage (which is the strength we have against any blue-based deck with a cantrip engine).
Against non-combo decks, E-Canon just gives them more time to find an answer because you aren't killing them early enough. The Arcane Lab effect, even if mainly one-sided, is just not amazing against any deck that isn't combo.
However, E-Canon is a pimp against combo if you can actually get him into play before you lose.
Vial Affinity has a choice to make about how it will deal with combo in any given metagame. We know the deck simply doesn't belong, regardless of how you build it, in a metagame with any substantial amount of combo, but it is possible for the deck to survive in a metagame with just a couple combo decks, especially if those combo decks are not well-tuned ANT/TES decks with good pilots (that is quite a condition).
If you believe the main is strong enough on its own, with no need for improvement against the majority of your metagame that isn't combo (beyond a few needles), then you can choose to put 12+ combo hate pieces in your side to actually have a shot against some combo decks (of course, not great combo decks and players). I think that is an unlikely metagame for most people though.
The other option is to nearly give up the combo match. This is the price you pay for playing Vial Affinity (or any other aggro deck).
Lastly, E-Canon is white, and that isn't the color I want to play. I'm pretty much convinced that Krosan Grip is mandatory. Splashing for anything other than green is very difficult to accomplish.
@ DalkonCledwin
At first glance, Slasher is a poor version of Disciple when comboing with Ravager. It can be powerful, especially when we are losing, but this card won't be turning the tide in those cases.
Affinity really shouldn't be putting cards in the GY until it is already close to winning.
I will try him out though.
peace,
4eak
So it's time to revamp my deck. I'm obviously getting 4 Moe's, but I'm not still on the ropes about using Green or White. Krosan Grip is great, but I'm thinking I can use the white Seal and not worry about holding mana. Thoughts?
My MTG Blog
"The game is not worth the candle."
You want to cast your threats in the first turns of the game, so you don't wanna tap out just to play a seal. If the opponent meanwhile plays a CB you're done.
Since you want to cast Krosan grip after turn 4 anyway, it doesn't matter if it costs your turn: you already played your threats.
Currently Playing: Nourishing Lich.Deck
Current Record: 1-83-2
Ok. So is there something else that makes green worth it?
Also, what else should I sb for the basic meta now? Crypt and Needle seem obvious. Anything else?
My MTG Blog
"The game is not worth the candle."
Not for Affinity. But, we don't need another reason. Krosan Grip is as good as it gets.Ok. So is there something else that makes green worth it?
4 Pithing NeedleAlso, what else should I sb for the basic meta now? Crypt and Needle seem obvious. Anything else?
4 Krosan Grip
3-4 Tormod's Crypt
3-4 Metaslot
I generally use Chalice in this slot. But, Winter Orb, SoR/ToA, are also strong generic choices.
peace,
4eak
Hey all,
I'm using a pretty basic Affinity list right now, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it.
First, the list:
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Shrapnel Blast
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Master of Etherium
4 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
3 Myr Enforcer
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
I chose to run 4 Darksteel Citadels, as they're quite good against Wasteland, Sinkhole, Deed and other nasty stuff. Shrapnel Blast has also been very good for me, especially in combination with Disciple.
I'm not sure on the Myr Enforcer though. Sometimes they're great, but sometimes they sit in my hand for too long. Is there a better option in this slot?
I've been thinking about Chromatic Star to smooth out the mana some more. What do you think?
The sideboard has been satisfying, but not great. Further ideas are very appreciated. I only included artifacts because I often couldn't cast colored answers.
You'll find some pretty good discussion about the proper inclusions for a list. At first gloss, I would say cut blinkmoth nexus, put in 2-3 Springleaf Drum. Also... shrapnel Blast is becoming less effective. Cut them 2-3 rainbow lands. Anything more in-depth should come from your reading of the past 3 or 4 pages. Good stuff there.
Well, I read the last few pages, but there has been no discussion about Myr Enforcer and Chromatic Star.
While some said Shrapnel Blast is not what it used to be, I didn't find any reasoning. Why is Shrapnel Blast not good anymore? In my (limited) testing it's been very good, dealing the last few damage or even removing troublesome threats.
Blinkmoth Nexus I'd like to keep, as that card has won me many games and has great synergy with the deck. 2-of seems fine, as I don't want to see multiples and hurt my artifact count too much.
4eak is the best person to talk to about this. You want to maximize your artifact count. Shrapnel blast is simply not an artifact. Your non artifact cards need to be stellar in order to run them. Thoughtcast is 2/3 of Ancestral Recall-sign me up. Disciple of the vault is arguably the best card in the deck. Springleaf drum is, overall, better mana smoothing for the deck than chromatic star, even though star can draw you a card. It's a one-shot. Drum also has the ability to accelerate your first few turns. There's a post around here somewhere that 4eak explains most of this.
@ Bongo
My list is nearly identical to yours. Your list to mine:
-4 Great Furnace
-2 Blinkmoth Nexus
-3 Shrapnel Blast
-1 Aether Vial
for
+3 Tree of Tales
+3 Glimmervoid
+3 Springleaf Drum
+1 Myr Enforcer
I also don't have Jitte's in my sideboard. The card is too expensive to use effectively.
Blinkmoth Nexus competes with color smoothing and pure artifact lands. It loses on both accounts. You need to guarantee that you can play MoE at all times, just as you need to guarantee Ravager/Plating (which have no color requirements, so that isn't so hard). MoE changes how we build our mana base.
I can see why you are interested in Chromatic Star. You have no mana color smoothing outside of Vial. This is odd considering you have Shrapnel blast in the deck as well, and so your mana smoothing needs are even greater than mine in the main.
Here's the deal: Drum is just better than Star. Drum isn't just mana smoothing, but it is also mana acceleration. It is Vial 5-7 or 8, and we desperately need mana acceleration that doesn't cost us card advantage. Chromatic Star smoothes, but it isn't actually accelerating your mana.
Lastly, Shrapnel is sitting in Drum's spot. Drum is much more important to the synergy and speed of the deck. It is vital that you can (excuse my glee over the phrase) "regurgitate your hand on third turn", and drum gives us this advantage. Shrapnel will definitely win you games, but if you sit down to seriously test Drum vs. Shrapnel, you'll see that you'll have won many more games by playing Drum instead. While Shrapnel sat your in hand, Drum would be regurgitating hands, smoothing out your colors, and making unkeepable hands keepable ones (a form of card advantage).
peace,
4eak
4eak, what's your current list?
My MTG Blog
"The game is not worth the candle."
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