This list is IMHO, a lot more aggressive than the list in the OP...and a lot closer to what I play. Mine is more aggressive yet; foregoing StP for 2 more Lightning Helix and 2 Fireblast. Furthermore, I prefer 2 Thoctar and 2 FoD to make room for 2 Cursed Scrolls. Whether that means the list is better or not...I dunno.Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
@Pulp Fiction and Loxodon Baileyarch, what matchups were benefitted when you strenthed the mid game with StP and Jitte, thus becoming less agressive? It's clear to me that your build is at least a full turn slower than it could be, which eliminates any chance to race combo. Can you justify it with results?
No one except for everyone that plays EE, WoG, and Deed...
Looks good. I wouldn't run more than 3 rancor though.
In a format completely infested with Stifle and Wasteland, and where you absolutely need to win by turn four or win turn five with little effort, how is Figure even a decent threat for Zoo?
I know that Kird Ape isn't the most impressive body in a format of bigger bodies, but Figure is a card that chews up mana you can't afford to spend and simply doesn't get big enough because a 4/5 is simply better than a 4/4. Many of the decks I see here run 19 sources of red or white mana - I wonder how you consistently get to spend three mana on him.
The real problem with Figure is that he doesn't address this deck's problems - he only makes them worse. He isn't a Lavamancer that can win a Goyf stalling match or help you kill him outright or apply the last points without any help (of course, he's not turn one pressure either). He doesn't create immediate pressure like Rancor to help you really go to town. He doesn't remove artifacts like Chalice and he doesn't remove enchantments like Counterbalance, yet he still requires as much mana as those cards. How can you pump him to make him a threat while still playing your sideboard cards?
I know that he is a good card, but with the manabases and sideboard cards I'm currently seeing here, I don't see the match.
WHAT? No, just no.
@TheRock: That was probably one of the most intelligent things said in this thread. Touche.
@umbowta: I can think of two games in particular where Jitte and Scroll helped me out ALOT. Two weeks ago i played Zoo at my local tournament and i was having a bad night, so i lose round one and get paired down to the local Threshold player here, Kabal. I land the Scroll early in the game, and by the late game, which happens when playing Thresh, he had to end up Stifling my Scroll, and he couldn't find an answer so i killed him with it.
Another game i was playing GB Thresh and i snuck it in under Countertop, and just won with him and a Kird Ape, all 20 points of damage.
For the Jitte i remember watching my buddies playing, and Pulp Fiction was playing Zoo and my other buddy Braves was playing Eva Green, and it got into late game bc they couldn't draw anything relevant and then Pulp drops a Scroll on his FoD(Which we were testing at the time), and went to town, killing a Tombstalker along with a bunch of other shit as well. And hell i've even had a MUC player just scoop to turn 1 Kird Ape turn 2 Jitte. It is just a bomb that everyone fears even if you have no creatures in play.
And i just realized you asked about StP, not Scroll go me haha. StP has been great, especially with all the dumb Dreadnaught running around, no more academy ruins for you! The 2 to 6 to 12 life gain doesn't matter when you are bashing with 3/3's for 1, and it really doesn't matter lategame when sometimes you don't have a chance anyway. I think it's a cureall to creatures(cept shroud ones). Creatures can dodge a Bolt or a Chain, they can't dodge StP.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
tharock, you have a good point.
But what to run in FoD's place in my build above.
I don't like Lavamancer because he makes your Goyfs worse.
I don't want to go under 22 threats because everyone plays a lot of removal these days, atleast where I play.
StP is awesome. Cursed Scroll imo, is too slow and clunky. It's only good if you're down to just one card in your hand. And even then you're spending 3 mana a turn just to do 2 damage. Tons of cards offer a better deal that these days. Why not play that 3cc red enchantment that deals 2 damage a turn automatically, no extra mana investment needed, and no need to be down to just one card in your hand to be usable. Why not just play Fireblast.
The whole "Lavamancer makes ur Goyf weaker" argument is not very strong. It is very rare indeed during actual play that this is a problem. Usually because ur opp has the same cards types (+ hopefully more) in his grave as you do. And when it is an issue, the choice to beat or burn is usually a given anyway.
Lavamancer simply wins games.
I´m a Derek, and Derek's don't run...
Yeah, you're probably right.
FoD is a Pouncing Jaguar half the games, and a 5cc 4/4 the other half the games (basically a much worse Ashenmoor Gouger). Neither card is good enough for Zoo. So why would a combination of the two.
Spending 5 mana for a 4/4 sounds pretty crappy compared to spending one mana for a 3/3 (Wild Nactl) or three mana for a 5/4. He's strictly better than Nantuko Shade, but that's about it.
Lavamancer is quite strong by comparison.
I think the question is more about how much Zoo needs a mid to later-game, or rather what it needs to be able to compete there. It's true that Zoo can fish really quickly, but in reality we can't get those kind of wins all the time. We tell the opponent that they have to deal with us somehow, otherwise they're going to get ripped apart. I think there comes a point when we can't really increase the speed of the deck enough to be worthwhile, and thus need to look into improving those matches that last longer than we want (while still not hurting the early game too much).
So, about Figure. Quickly compared to ape, I don't think the extra damage ape might give you would give you more wins versus the times where you couldn't win quickly and now need something more relevant than a 2/3. Figure can be relevant both early and late game. I like him a lot, but even still I couldn't say if he's the right choice of the deck. It is necessary that we have options for mid-late games when we haven't been able to kill fast enough though, because it happens more than we'd like. It's just a matter of finding the right card(s) for that.
(Also, I need to find more good decks to playtest this against =|)
What do you guys think about this build?
4 Dark Confidant
1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Gaea's Might
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames
3 Vindicate
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
source: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22184)
Five color Zoo is interesting. Not sure how the manabase works out, but if it does, good for you.
But looking at the list, you need to play better threats.
Neither Jotun Grunt nor Isamaru, are good enough creatures to make the cut imo. I suppose Tin Street works, but only if your meta is full of artifacts.
I like dark confidant a lot. I've been thinking lately that it'd be nice to have some kind of draw in the deck. Though I wonder if 4-5 colors is really going to be okay in our kind of environment with only 20 lands. I don't really like it that well after that...I think the creature base is wrong. Isamaru and grunt are both not good for this deck. I also think vexing shusher is better than hooligan if you're going the route of utility creatures.. It has 1 more toughness, and is useful against counterbalance and chalice, where I feel hooligan is only useful against chalice and dreatnaught. and I feel like gaea's might could be something better.
The confidant is a real nice addition to the deck and won't hurt that much. 1/3 is land, and a lot of lands also filter your deck. And the casting cost is never higher then 2cc, and almost every cards in the deck deals more damage then 2 so that is a fair trade.
Perhaps 4x thoughtseize is a good idea, since i splashed in black for the confidant. That card can cripple someone.
"R/G/W Zoo"
That's pretty much all i have to say about Dark Confidant.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Good call.
Seriously? Ill be the first to admit, my meta isnt the best to play test in, but I do know what Im doing when it comes to this deck.Maybe we should play only critters with CC 4 or more? Then we could avoid Counterbalance too!
Have you ever actually played this deck? I have, and turn 1 aggressive critter IS crucial to this deck.
Ive been putting a lot of thought into figure vs kird ape lately and I still havent come to a solid conclusion. I think I may make up a couple different lists and test them against my friends.
Also, Mongoose isnt too bad in this deck. You do need thresh for him to be super effective, but a 1/1 shroud for 1 is nice, especially against point removal (burn, swords, that kind of thing). Anyone tried him in the deck yet? Ive used him in goyf/sligh and he won me a couple games, just havent gotten around to tryin him in zoo yet, I cant decide what to cut.
Mmm...I don't know about goose. See, I like that he has shroud, but on the other hand...We don't really get threshold all that much. People like to swords our creatures, we don't like to swing if our guys will be killed, and we don't have enough cheap instants to get in the graveyard soon enough.
Yea, thats pretty much what I was thinking, early game he would be a 1/1. Probably until turn 6 or 8 even. Depending the type of deck your against anyway. I may try him randomly, but Im not expecting wonders.
I would like to use what you just said to make a point.
This is EXACTLY why Grim Lavamancer belongs in Goyf Sligh and not in Zoo. I couldn't have said it much better.
Dead or Alive, you're coming with me.
-Robocop-
Thats another good point. I know I never use my burn nearly as much as I would in sligh, or at least for the same reasons. Im much more prone to hold cards until I need to clear a path for creatures or if the burn in my hand will kill the player.
Just not enough GY fodder for lavamancer to be effective.
Keep in mind too, your bound to be facing some form of graveyard hate due to goyf to begin with.
Your list is almost identical to mine, and I must say that it is a doozie. The only differences are that I have 3 Isamaru instead of your 3 FoD/Grim Lavamancers, and 2 extra Lightning Helix and 2 Jitte instead of your Rancors. I too believe 3 Thoctars is the right amount; they are your big muscle later in the game, and with 3 you should draw one each game but not multiples.
I know people will hound me for including Isamaru (no pun intended), but I feel he fits the slot better than both Lavamancer and FoD. I have tested with all three, and Lavamancer is the worst IMO. Rarely will you be able to use his ability more than twice in a game, and one power just doesn't cut it in an aggressive deck. FoD has been beaten to death as to why it's not the greatest in Zoo; simply put, it requires too much mana and is not the most efficient right away. Isamaru will remain the most fitting one mana creature for the deck after Nacatl and Kird Ape.
My main concern right now is deciding whether to substitute my two Jittes for Cursed Scrolls. Pulp Fiction and Loxodon, you both speak highly of Cursed Scroll, and I wonder what you would choose if given the choice between only Jittes or only Scrolls. Jitte just feels like a win-more card to me, and is the worst card you can draw when topdecking. Scroll, on the other hand, is a good draw whenever you get it, so long as you don't have multiples of it (not likely with only 2 in the deck). Zoo is very capable of emptying its hand quickly, meaning that you can probably get a Cursed Scroll going 4th or 5th turn. Also, Scroll can be the only thing that can save you when you get caught in a rut (against Humility/Moat and all the other control elements), and gives you the lasting power that you will usually need. Turn 4 goldfishes are just not going to happen all that much, and you're kidding yourself if you think you don't need a late-game plan. The only problem I see with the scroll is having it be too mana intensive later in the game, when each turn you want to draw a threat, reveal it with Scroll, and then play it.
You mean later in the game when you have 4 or 5 lands sitting on the table so you can activate Scroll and still play the card you drew fairly easily. I fail to see the problem.
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