Whut?!!!Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
You are really funny, since "way back" was yesterday. On page 89, someone else suggests that you skip the CB/top for spell snares, and you go "splendid, i'll try that mate".
How much time have you really had to tests all these lists thrown around?
The "way back" was referring to my thread from TEN DAYS AGO, in which I was playing CB + Top along side Knight.
I started siding it out for Diverts and other utility back during thursday night. Eventually, I gave up on CB + Top and found myself leaving it out of the mainbuild entirely. Just didn't feel like bringing it up here and starting another argument since everyone here has such a hard on for CB + Top, which always felt lukewarm at best in the deck.
Since someone else suggested getting rid of CB + Top and wasn't instantly flamed for doing so, I figured I would jump in and share my support of the cutting the card as well.
Against most decks of legacy, CB/top ends the game.
Mana denial strategy can always fail. When i playtested against TA, 2 stifle and 2 wasteland and i still managed somehow to win that game. Mana denial can't prevent lucky top deck from opponents.
CB/top can completely counter every spell opponent attempt to play.
I wasn't happy with CB + Top. But you know what. Play CB if you want. CB + Top is not really relevent. I'm not happy with 4 Spell Snare in it's place either. Had far better luck with Divert. But it's not relevent. And it's not relevent whether you opt to include any basics in the deck or not either.
I just want others players to test Stifle + Wasteland + Knight so that they can see what I'm seeing, which is that this approach is really really strong. I don't much care what the rest of the build looks like.
Ok Mr. Hammer, whatever you say.
When you say that CB/top is lukewarm in "the" deck, do you refer to your own build, or UGw thresh in general? If the second, that is a rather funny statement, I don't care how "anti-inovational" you want to call me.
This whole discussion reminds me a lot of the the one held in this very thread 3 months or so ago, when Rafiq was spoiled and about to become legal. He was said to be "the" tech by some and that enforcer would never need to see play again. How many top8s have been made by a UGw thresh with Rafiq since? Not one.
Although I completely agree with you, there was 1 top8 w/ Rafiq in UGW Thresh: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21816.
And I was one of the people who said that Mystic Enforcer absolutely belongs in the deck and should never get the boot.
Plenty of people opposed replacing Werebear with Goyf as well.
The majority of people opposed CB + Top initially. CB + Top was proposed as soon as Coldsnap was spoiled. Yet it took a full year and a half after coldsnap was printed before CB+Top started becoming mainstream.
Plenty of people opposed Oblivion Ring. I could go on and on.
Practically every single new card that eventually made it into the deck, many people in this very thread opposed playing.
All that proves is that people are always opposed to trying out new ideas and new cards in the deck. The very fact that Coldsnap was out for a full year and a half before CB + Top became mainstream proves this.
What all this proves is that plenty of people talk about how a card or strategy doesn't work in the deck without ever having tested it themselves.
Hehe, missed that one. I hope my reasoning is still valid ;)
Regarding Knight/Waste Lock did you try a game vs. UR dreadstill or a thresh deck with basics in it?
No to UR Dreadstill. Yes to Thresh.
And Knight was fantastic there. It was on Saturday. One game in particular that I recall came to a Goyf standstill (each of us had a 4/5 goyf on the board) until I managed to resolve Knight which was already a 7/7 when it came on the board. Won the game singlehandedly.
You're not going to go for Wastelock against decks with a low curve. You use it against decks that either...
a.) Already had their mana development hindered by stifle (and subsequently missed a land drop).
b.) Missed a land drop and don't have many lands on the board.
c.) Play several 3cc and/or 4cc cards.
Many games, you use Knight as a giant beatstick (almost always bigger than goyf) and sometimes, you use it to block/deter attacks and then pump itself.
In that situation, couldn't an Enforcer been just as effective at breaking the Goyf stalemate?
I don't think a UGW-Tempo-Threshold is possible. I've played the deck long enough (pre and post Goyf) to be convinced that its clock is wayyyy to slow to play tempo.
It doesn't have the reach to play tempo; to be more precise, it doesn't play burn like Canadian Threshold, huge beaters that come fast in the game (Tombstalker in TA) and it plays Sword to Plowshares, which is arguably the best removal in the format, but tends to slow things down via opponent life-gain. In short, UGW-Threshold's clock would be way too slow to make it an efficient tempo deck.
You lost me there... I'd like to know your testing gauntlet to try to make sense of that.
Knight is a huge beater that comes down fast. It's bigger than Tombstalker the majority of the time. That's my point actually. With Knight, UGW-Tempo-Thresh works.
He actually managed to resolve an Enforcer I think ~2-3 turns after I played my Knight, but had to use it chump block the Knight so that he could live an extra turn.
I actually had a FoW handy but there was no reason for me to stop Enforcer as it was too little, too late and I wanted the FoW if he tried to play another StP. My Enforcer got StPed earlier (I think it was the same game, but I might be thinking of another match.) Either way, I never got to use an Enforcer that game. As my thread above indicates, I played with Enforcer in the deck, and I still often play with Enforcer alongside Knight.
It supplements the aggressive strategy of this build well.
That game, Knight functioned as a 3cc Enforcer #3-6.
Knight often does work as a 3cc Enfocerer to break Goyf stalemates. But my point is, the card has many functions. Breaking Goyf stalemates and subbing in for Enforcer are just one of them.
You know what guys. I'm tired of belaboring this. Play whatever build you want.
Play or don't play Stifle + Wasteland + Knight. Don't really care anymore. It took people an year+ to start accepting Counterbalance + Top as worthwhile. I'm confident that it'll happen with Knight too eventually.
This is far more powerful against much more decks:
Resolved Back to Basics
Resolved Counterbalance
Resolved Sensei's Divining Top
With having that in play, a simple nimble mongoose can seal you the deal.
Stifle + wasteland will only effect your opponent once. It just cannot compete with the cardadvantage Counterbalance creates. I bet that I will win far more games with CB/Top in play (or with Back to Basics) than a "recurring" double-Wasteland.
Although KoR is pretty big, Mystic Enforcer is big enough too. It is awesome against Goyfstandstills, TA and more black removal.
It just seems to me by the way you argument that you do not test properly enough to draw conclusions. As Mtgthesource is pretty conservative, you must first get results in order to convince people to play your list. Discuss your deck with people you test against (etc.), tweek the list by doing that to get a more stable list.
Team Nijmegen
Robbert Slavenburg
DCI: 2069307189
Back to Basics is very hard to support well given our manabase.
Getting two cards into play (both CB + Top) would be more disruptive than Knight.
But you're talking about a two card combo here.
Knight is a one card combo, that also happens to a beatstick/threat. A beatstick that's often just as big as Mystic Enforcer but at a cheaper cc. How many games have you won by swinging with Counterbalance or Back to Basics.
Actually, to clarify things...
CB and SDT both works perfection on their own. Combined together, they are THE combo.
SDT is pretty good alone, probably better than a single CB. Cards selection usually win the game on the long run
CB : Blind reveal is enough to make your opponent slow down. You also have cantrips if you dont have SDT in play
"How many games have you won by swinging with Counterbalance "
False quesiton much? LOL?
CB actually makes me win a lot of game. Whether random blind reveal, or actual SDT/Cantrip. Obviously, CB doesn't attack.
Robert
Have you actually played the current UGw List with CB+Top+BtB? If it were a problem to put CB or Top into play or if it were a problem to support BtB, people wouldn't pilot this list into Top8 more consistantly than most other decks (although not all play BtB).
Again, play Knight as you like but don't try to support him with shady arguments like: Goyfs big brother, better than CB+Top, "recurring" Wastelands (which they are not!) and concepts like white Tempo Thresh.
TS Crew
I think the Knight is a fine card but doesn't shore up the kind of match-ups UGw Threshold has problems with.
If you cut Counterbalance/Sensei's Diving Top and/or Spell Snare then your TES, Burn, GoyfSligh, AggroLoam and Threshold mirrors get weaker. You're still vulnerable to Swords but lose the insane card and tempo advantages of playing these cards.
I think if a change is needed in the archetype, it would be to shore up match-ups like Landstill or Intuition-based archetypes that can just beat you with inevitability. Oblivion Ring and Trygon Predator have gone a long way to improve those matches.
I don't agree that you can play a tempo role because your argument revolves around you resolving a three casting cost spell. Thrash is able to play the tempo role because of the cheap and efficient nature of every spell it plays. I think you're sacrificing the strengths of the deck to try to achieve something you won't be able to do better than other tempo-focused decks.
I'm not bashing the Knight or anyone who wants to play it. I just don't think that's the direction UGw Threshold needs to go in to improve.
You're welcome to disagree. That's fine.
Let's just drop the topic.
I don't feel like debating the Knight any more. I will continue to play it because I've personally not found what you said to be the case.
I have one question Hammer...
How does your build fare against Merfolk?
My reason for asking is that I've been having a hard time beating Merfolk with any of the Thresh builds and even Dreadstill. I think that Merfolk is deffinitely a DTB (see current T8 results).
Personally, I think that KoR is a good card. But, my issue with it (no testing to back this up) is that it seems to me that you will mana screw yourself by fetching wastlands unless you run more colored lands in general to support it (especially in a three color deck).
On the subject of CB/top, I also personally think that CB/top isn't that great at the moment for the following reasons;
-Everyone is playing arround it
-It is hard to assemble the combo
(although I agree that top is amazing by itself)
-It slows the game down considerably (more draws)
I do have personal experience playing without CB/top in Threshold. I placed 25 at The Source tournament with Ugr Swan Thresh. I ran 4 Counterspell and 3 Spell Snare in the CB/top spots and was very happy with it all day. I countered Tombstalker a couple times and in fact had my Counterspells Extirpated twice that day. I agree with most that CB/top is the nuts in some matches, winning games all by itself, but I personally am not huge fan of the combo, especially right now.
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