[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[SirManiak]

Hello all,

First time poster on source so please go easy on me.


I have been playing Ur Dreadstill for about a month now in prep for Chicago. The deck is good, but I believe that UW or Uwb would have a better chance of standing up to 15 rounds of play.

Here is the list I am currently working with. Thoughts and comments would be welcome as I'm not sure where to go from here, and Legacy is not a format that I normally play, so I'm not sure if all my cards here are optimal or if they are going to do what I want them to.

Thanks,
Maniak

Lands
3 [B] Tundra
3 [B] Island (1)
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [TE] Wasteland

Creatures
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle

Sideboard
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
3 [DS] Echoing Truth
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
1 [TE] Propaganda

[BKclassic]

Stuff

I am guessing that you know you are playing a slightly unconventional list, so I'll just point some things that may not have already occurred to you.

-4 Stifles, 4 Noughts, 0 Trickbind- You are probably going to have dead Dreadnoughts sitting in your hand a lot if you do this. Run some Trickbinds.

-1cc-22
2cc-7
3cc-3

Counterbalance is going to be weak. You need more 2 drops.

(Edit- an aside @ Rood- I am very intrigued by your white splash list, but the amount of 1 drops bothers me.)

-Enlightened Tutor- Due to the card disadvantage playing Nought is, I can't recommend more card advantage that is this card. It can grab Standstill or Counterbalance to make up for it, but I am not really a fan.

-Academy Ruins is jank.

-12 Blue sources is probably going to be too few, especially over 15 rounds.

-I would make the SB chants Hydroblasts. Meddling Mage is already good against combo, and answers to Blood Moon and Vexing Shusher can come in handy.

Edit #2- Here is my current White Splash list:

3 Tundra
6 Fetch
5 Island
4 Mishra' Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance

4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Daze
4 Force of Will

2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Engineered Explosives (maybe back 1 EE and 1 Needle since I have some Swords now)

4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

SB:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Hydroblast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
2 Crucible of Worlds

[SirManiak]

Have you tested Ruins? cuz EE lock has won me games. I would almost rather go -1 waste +1 island than cut ruins.

The rest I can easily agree with as the list is still in planning phase. Has anyone had any success testing a Uwb list outside of MWS? I really feel like the deck wants Bob, and maybe Extirpate out of the side. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Rood]

Have you tested Ruins? cuz EE lock has won me games. I would almost rather go -1 waste +1 island than cut ruins.

The rest I can easily agree with as the list is still in planning phase. Has anyone had any success testing a Uwb list outside of MWS? I really feel like the deck wants Bob, and maybe Extirpate out of the side. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Yeah look on the last page. I posted a recent list UWB that had both Confidant and Vindicate maindeck that is extremely solid. You may want to go with that list considering your mirror matchup will improve and you may have that deck you want to last 15 rounds with.

[FoolofaTook]

Yeah look on the last page. I posted a recent list UWB that had both Confidant and Vindicate maindeck that is extremely solid. You may want to go with that list considering your mirror matchup will improve and you may have that deck you want to last 15 rounds with.

On the Vindication Dreadstill list: how do you manage with 2x SDT and no Trinket Mages? I understand that the Dark Confidants get you to things faster but I just see no inevitability to getting CounterTop up at all in that list. 2-ofs in a deck kind of come and go from round to round unless you have some way to dredge them up that is reliable. Isn't that list stronger with 3x Trinket Mage and 1x Engineered Explosives over the 4x Dark Confidant?

[KillemallCFH]

@Rodney, I like the Vindicate list a lot; it seemed to do really well in testing. A couple of random thoughts though:

• I'd really like to see the 3rd Top in there. Not quite sure what you'd cut, but running only 2 is kinda iffy.
• In the absence of K-Grip, Annul seems like a really solid SB option. 1 Mana? Check. Helps you win the CB war? Check. Stops troublesome Arties/Enchantments that Vindicate can't effectively deal with (EE, Deed and Survival come to mind)? Check. It's also really solid against ITF, which is one of the deck's harder matchups.
• With the somewhat increased focus on mana denial, Daze seems like it should really find a place in here. Spell Snare is really good, but Daze might have the edge over it. Not sure though.
• Some number of Crucibles in the main and/or side might be pretty good and give you an edge over control (though Annul helps in that regard too). The list is really tight though, so finding room for Crucibles probably won't work out.

[Atog]

@Rodney, I like the Vindicate list a lot; it seemed to do really well in testing. A couple of random thoughts though:

• I'd really like to see the 3rd Top in there. Not quite sure what you'd cut, but running only 2 is kinda iffy.
• In the absence of K-Grip, Annul seems like a really solid SB option. 1 Mana? Check. Helps you win the CB war? Check. Stops troublesome Arties/Enchantments that Vindicate can't effectively deal with (EE, Deed and Survival come to mind)? Check. It's also really solid against ITF, which is one of the deck's harder matchups.
• With the somewhat increased focus on mana denial, Daze seems like it should really find a place in here. Spell Snare is really good, but Daze might have the edge over it. Not sure though.
• Some number of Crucibles in the main and/or side might be pretty good and give you an edge over control (though Annul helps in that regard too). The list is really tight though, so finding room for Crucibles probably won't work out.

Have you been mana-screwed during testing? Just those 2 basics are my biggest concern, but they maybe be just enough. Have you played with sideboard games or without it? If yes, how it have been working for you, would you change something of Roodmistah current sideboard?

[Enigma]

I like your idea, but would change a couple o' things:

-4 Spell snare
+4 Daze

The reason looks obvious to me: 6 Stifle, 3-4 Vindicate, 3 Wasteland. Yeah.

Other 2 card I want:

+1 Crucible
+1 Top

By the fact I always play 61 cards, I can include one of those two. The other one, I would cut a Vindicate. I play this card in UWb landstill and I find it a bit mana intensive at moment, mostly when I have 2 in hands. So I would probably go with:

-1 Vindicate [EDIT: I think the 2nd Trickbind could be cut before Vindicate]

Other tweak I would like everyone to test it is a safer mana base. In UWb Landstill, I feel really confortable with the 2x Islands, 1x Plain, 1x Swamp and I might considere it in this list for -2 Underground Seas. I did a couple of first hand generator and it never screwed me to have a plain or a swamp in my opening instead of a U. Sea. You cannot keep a 1 land hand with those but it's anyway always risky to do so.

The SB: My biggest fear with Dreadstill is Landstill. So I would design the SB to fit against it:

+2 Crucible of Worlds,
+2 Tidehollow Sculler
+2 Meddling Mage

-1x Relic (I always side 3 against ITF, Thresh and Loam anyway)
-4x Divert
-1x Needle (too random at a 1 of) (for what I think)

The 4x 2/2's are for beating. MM chanting Swords and if there's a second, EE. I would take out: -2 Trickbind, -2 Dreadnought, -2 Daze. And going mishra & little guy beating. In addition of Dark confidant, this really looks promising.

+MM and Sculler are good cards against combo. If you never tested Sculler, please do so, it's wonderful.


I feel confidant about the Vindication direction of Dreadstill, so let's test those lists in our respectives Meta, It could probably solve some problems.

PM

[Sage]

I recently took my build of Ubw dreadstill to a 13 person tournament in Pittsburg last Saturday. I went 3-1 only loosing to Merfolk. Although my build was a bit different than the Uwb list preceding this post, I think Dreadstill not running red is a big mistake. Aggro decks are making a huge comeback lately, especially Merfolk which is a really bad matchup for this version of the deck regardless of how you play it (in my oppinion). The three decks I beat were Elf Survival (LD won here), white aggro, and UB Painter. I do think this deck has a really good game against most every other deck with the addition of Vindicate (amazing against hard to deal with permanents such as Plainswalkers). But, personally, I am probably switching to Ugr/Ur because of aggros recent numbers. Oh, for the record I ran 3xDreadnought/3xTombstalker and Tombstalker was AMAZING.

[SirManiak]

Sage, do you happen to have a list handy for comparison? If merfolk is a problem, maybe its time for Engineered Plague to make a comeback ( I hear its good against gobos too!). Is there any reason that the deck couldn't support it? Lord is the only fish that survives, and he shouldn't ever hit play anyways. Just a thought.

@Rood: I do like your list a lot. How does it do without EE? and should card #61 be a crucible?? and 1 in the board?

[Rood]

@Rodney, I like the Vindicate list a lot; it seemed to do really well in testing. A couple of random thoughts

-1 Vindicate [EDIT: I think the 2nd Trickbind could be cut before Vindicate]

Other tweak I would like everyone to test it is a safer mana base. In UWb Landstill, I feel really confortable with the 2x Islands, 1x Plain, 1x Swamp and I might considere it in this list for -2 Underground Seas. I did a couple of first hand generator and it never screwed me to have a plain or a swamp in my opening instead of a U. Sea. You cannot keep a 1 land hand with those but it's anyway always risky to do so.

The SB: My biggest fear with Dreadstill is Landstill. So I would design the SB to fit against it:

+2 Crucible of Worlds,
+2 Tidehollow Sculler
+2 Meddling Mage

-1x Relic (I always side 3 against ITF, Thresh and Loam anyway)
-4x Divert
-1x Needle (too random at a 1 of) (for what I think)

The 4x 2/2's are for beating. MM chanting Swords and if there's a second, EE. I would take out: -2 Trickbind, -2 Dreadnought, -2 Daze. And going mishra & little guy beating. In addition of Dark confidant, this really looks promising.

+MM and Sculler are good cards against combo. If you never tested Sculler, please do so, it's wonderful.


I feel confidant about the Vindication direction of Dreadstill, so let's test those lists in our respectives Meta, It could probably solve some problems.

PM

Daze is probally stronger, hasn't been tested.

I recently took my build of Ubw dreadstill to a 13 person tournament in Pittsburg last Saturday. I went 3-1 only loosing to Merfolk. Although my build was a bit different than the Uwb list preceding this post, I think Dreadstill not running red is a big mistake. Aggro decks are making a huge comeback lately, especially Merfolk which is a really bad matchup for this version of the deck regardless of how you play it (in my oppinion). The three decks I beat were Elf Survival (LD won here), white aggro, and UB Painter. I do think this deck has a really good game against most every other deck with the addition of Vindicate (amazing against hard to deal with permanents such as Plainswalkers). But, personally, I am probably switching to Ugr/Ur because of aggros recent numbers. Oh, for the record I ran 3xDreadnought/3xTombstalker and Tombstalker was AMAZING.

Yeah I'm starting to believe Merfolk may be worse for us than ITF. They are all unblockable once LoA hits, so Factory is completely useless. Also Merrow taps down Dreadnought and allows them to keep swinging even if we did land one. Not to mention Standstill is completely useless against them.

[Atog]

Just thinking black answer to merfolks and other rogues, Engineered Plague is obvious, but how about Infest? That does same than Pyroclams but cost just "b" more. But is that too much compared to plague? Infest just kills those Lord of Atlantis, Piledrivers, Goblin Kings and some elfs what plague won't hit (Viridian shaman). E. Plague is long term answer, but if you sweep board by Infest that maybe be just enought to win game. I'm going to test next week that plague vs. infest against merfolks atleast.

[nitewolf9]

I did some testing against merfolk with Team America, and it was horrendous game 1. I lost all 10 games. Then post board, I won 9 and lost 1 on a mull to 4. I can say this: Engineered Plague is an absolute beating for that deck. If you have any additional removal on top of plague they are in trouble. They usually only needed to have 2 or 3 dudes on the table at a time (plus their manlands), so while infest is good, they can simply not overextend into it. Plague sticks around and makes them answer it. If you want to beat them I think plague is the answer, especially if you are already packing swords and/or vindicate. With 1 plague you can just focus spot removal on reejery/lord. With 2 they lose.

[Sage]

SirManiak,

I don't have my list handy, but I'll say that I didn't run CB/top and instead ran 2x Vindicate and Spell Snare in it's place. I only won with Dreadnought twice in 8 total matches (3x 2-0's, 1x 0-2). Tombstalker was, as I said, amazing. I noticed in goldfishing that this deck fills the graveyard very fast, thus making Tomstalker quite easy to cast. I also wanted another few threats in the deck that weren't goyf because Submerge owns Dreadnought (major card disadvantage) if you run the forests. I only ran 3 Dreadnoughts because I want to use my Stifle effects early and if you do that you will quite often have a Dreadnought floating in your hand and not be able to get it down (4xStifle, 1xTrickbind). I only ran 3 Tombstalkers because you will only be able to reliably cast him early once.

The first loss to Merfolk was a double muligan going seccond and he landed an Aether Vial on turn one = gg. The seccond game was quite close, but he Stifled a critical EE @ 1 (he had two vials in play and only two small Merfolk) and that pretty much locked up the game for him as he soon after vialed in a Wakethrasher and beat me down (no swords =[ ).

As for Engineered Plague:
I had 4 in my SB as I thought it to be the easiest to play in a three color deck, but they aren't good enough against merfolk. Even if you land one, it only kills a couple of there guys, thus you need two to make them effective. But, even if you are lucky enough to land two, two lords ends your day unless you have a swords for one. Thus, I also pondered using Infest instead due to its taking down x/2's with one spell, but I didn't get to test it. I really think that the red splash (Firespout) is the better build for 15 rounds in this metta because gobs/merfolk/affinity are rising in popularity and Firespout takes down geese with threshold.

[Muradin]

Ur Dreadstill have very potent sideboard options in the Merfolk matchup. You have Red Elemental Blast, which is just awesome in this matchup and even more important Pyroclasm/Firespout. Eventually they don't even see it coming if you manage not to drop a Volcanic Island in game 1 and let them overextend into clasm.

For me Red hast the best cards to handle swarming strategies, most of whom are also unfavorable matchups and therefore should be your color of choice (probably in combination with green, for goyf) if your meta has a lot of aggro decks.

[Rood]

I have to agree strongly with what Muradin said, red is the strongest splash color against a meta of Aggro decks. REB is sooo good against merfolk it's insane, cards MVP all day.

[SirManiak]

I have to agree strongly with what Muradin said, red is the strongest splash color against a meta of Aggro decks. REB is sooo good against merfolk it's insane, cards MVP all day.

Well if this is the case then, Is there maybe a Urw build that would be the best of both worlds without devolving the deck?

[aTn]

I'm new to playing the deck, but I'd say Urg sounds better than Urw (IMO) in a meta with decent amounts of aggro (Merfolk, Elves and friends).

Access to Firespout and Goyf, which I guess tend to help in these match-ups, is in my opinion way better than access to StoP and Meddling Mage.

[KillemallCFH]

I did a bunch of testing with the Uwb Vindicate list on MWS yesterday, and it's really solid. The manabase sucks, unfortunately, but there really isn't much I can do about that besides run more lands (which may not be an awful idea). I was running:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [B] Tundra
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [TE] Wasteland
2 [US] Island (3)
3 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [NE] Daze
1 [TSP] Trickbind

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [B] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [US] Annul

Random thoughts:

• As I said, the manabase sucks. The fact that Vindicate needs 2 splash colors is a huge pain in the ass, especially with a manabase of only 21 lands, 7 of which are colorless, and 2 of which are basic Islands. Still, the raw power of Vindicate (and StP) is worth the white splash methinks.
• Bob is insane. Like, holy shit. I don't think I'm ever going to run a nonblack Dreadstill list again after playing with him.
• I found myself winning even less games with Dreadnought with this build than with other builds. They sometimes clogged up my hand, and sometimes were completely superfluous as wincons. I think I'd be comfortable going down to 3, though I'm not certain that is the correct call.
• Daze is better than Spell Snare in this list. Free >> Not free, especially with the amazing mana denial this list is packing.
• Vindicate is really powerful. Really good as mana denial, and really good as an all purpose answer. As I said, it is kinda tough on the manabase, but it is manageable. Being a 3cc makes blind CB a bit weaker, but makes CB/Top stronger. I lost a game to TES because my blind CB flipped a Vindicate, where literally any other card would've stopped him from comboing, and given me another turn to lay the Top I had sitting in my hand.
• The SB was solid. Annul is really good at doing its job, and I was generally happier to have it than Divert, though Divert is certainly plausible. The only thing I'm unsure of is which card should be the 3-of. I really feel like I want all of them to be 4-ofs, but that obviously isn't feasible

[Rood]

I have to agree with many of the things you said. It's unavoidable the bad manabase this version has, you just have to except it and smash face with Vindicates really. Daze was getting added to the list over Snare for pretty obvious reasons. I see you cut a Trickbind for a 3rd Top...not sure if I agree with that one entirely. Don't want too many dead Dreadnoughts in hand...I think this version needs 6 Stifle effects.

@BOB...holy shit you people don't know why you're missing out on...Standstill+Bob as a draw engine is the nuts.