[Deck] Dragon Stompy

[Dark_Cynic87]

Do as you please, but 4 is the right number. Between your chrome moxen and their removal spells, you may want to see more than one a game. As whoever was talking about Pyrokinesis said, you often have to pick which threat to toss to the Mox. Then there's discard via Thoughtseize that once in a while grabs it away from you.

Honestly, if you are winning it doesn't matter what you draw, and if you are losing, Slogger's one of two best shots to turn that around. I'd not go down to 4. In fact, 5 is probably the right number, and if you can get away with it you should.

Pce,

--DC

[Joe_C]

I'm starting to think that the correct number of sloggers in this deck is actually 3. 3 is enough that you will be able to see either a slogger or a pit dragon every game, but lowers the chances of getting them in multiples (which sucks when you have to seething song one out), and allows you to play what you draw each turn, which is important when you have to topdeck to stay hellbent turn after turn. I would say with the extra slot, the moon count should be brought up to 7 (if not there already), trinisphere up to 3 (it seems way to good in this meta to not mainboard), or add the 4th 3cc threat of choice (whether it is sulfur elemental or taurean mauler).

Ive dropped equipment from the deck entirely. Running 7 moons and 3 trini mian. Its been working well, its an identical configuration to what I played a few months ago at Hadley and took 4th with. My SB has changed a bit. I am just diheartened at how inconsistent the deck can be at times. Especially it seems my opponents just get great topdecks while I am trying to maintain pressure. I land turn 1 moons often, then dont get into any threats before they get a chance to build up mana to handle the offset moon creates for them. 3 color landstill has been brutal for me lately. They are all running eternal dragon which fixes their mana etc. Elspeth is a tank. I get ahead often, but cant seal the deal fast enough to matter. Maybe the next set or something will give us a card filter we can use.

[Tacosnape]

Pithing Needle owns Elspeth. Just saying. It also owns Eternal Dragon's cycling ability.

[Joe_C]

Pithing Needle owns Elspeth. Just saying. It also owns Eternal Dragon's cycling ability.

Obviously.... the point is that they usually dont matter anymore. they vidicate or EE pithing needle consistently against me. I can only win games against landstill where I resolve turn 1/2 moon, chalice then threat, and usually the threat needs to be pit dragon or slogger, nothing else ends the game fast enough.

[0dysseus]

The Conflux Spoiler was completed 3 days ago http://mtgsalvation.com/conflux-spoiler.html . It seems like there are no interesting cards for Dragon Stompy in Conflux, except from more Chalice-1 targets perhaps, like Path to Exile Banefire>(?)Demonfire(->which was cast out a long time ago).. an interesting but uncomfortable 1RR uncounterable Instant 2 damage to all(Volcanic Fallout), maybe Rakka Mar and finally Nyxathid, a good 1BB (practically 7/7) threat against us.

Let me propose a list, after seeing Bruenor's (Joe_C's) Vexing Shushers maindecked. I haven't tested it, and I won't be able to test it a lot, I have no time unfortunately. But it could prove good. And I want to help you keep this thread alive. So:

- Green Dragon Stompy -
-----------------------------------
MAIN
-----------------------------------
1 Snow-Covered Mountain [ColdSnap]
8 Mountain
1 Forest

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
-----------------------------18
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
------------------------------8

3 Blood Moon
------------------------------3

1 Umezawa's Jitte
------------------------------1

3 Vexing Shusher

3 Arc-Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Simian Spirit Guide
-----------------------------22

4 Seething Song

4 Manamorphose
------------------------------8

-----------------------------------
SIDE
-----------------------------------

4 Pithing Needle
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Trinisphere

3 Krosan Grip


Yes, yes. Possibly bs. Manamorphose countered by Chalice-2. But if played first it can help thin out a little, provide RR (or RG, GG). It is a free spell unless countered, and I am always happy if my cheap bait is countered, leaving me room for a better spell to resolve (a lock or a 2R threat here for example). If drawn later it can be always be pitched or counter-played with Chalice-2 down, or with Shusher. Manamorphose and Shusher can be pitched to Mox providing Green+Red if needed. They are always red for Pyrokinesis.

I've cut 1 Slogger to increase consistency along with the thining. 1 basic Forest could help without causing trouble..it can help cast Shusher and MM, and the latter could mean RR after played, even if the forest comes early. And finally we can disenchant, using Krosan Grip in the side.

Two cards I like and were brought up quite lately to the discussion were Null Brooch and Goblin Assault. They could be an answer to targeted/mass removal, mostly black, and moar. As you see I've also cut the Maulers, wanting to create a more stable result.

With 4 Trinispheres in SB maybe 8 moons are too much for blind metagames, or big tournaments. I have 7 only, and if 1 N.Brooch was played MD, maybe 6 moons total in the 75 would be enough. More noncreature counterspells with hellbent assistance could work.

And if the green list doesn't work, 3-4 equipment with no Maulers and 2-4 Goblin Assault could save us from being outnumbered.

Feel free to critisize, flame, whatever Cheers.

[uberfrank]

Manamorphose is definitely a dead card, if you want to run a cantrip I'm sure you can find something way better than this. Shusher is not such a bad card, but I doubt it has a place here. It would only help against matchups that are already positive for this deck.

How many times are you going to hit that lone forest anyway, when you desperately need it for those krosan grips out of the board?

Red sources can already be problematic for this deck, a splash is something that remains to be worked out, but here there's really not such an upside to it.

[0dysseus]

Some guys in earlier pages suggested fetchlands and Street Wraith for thinning, but these were rejected because DS already deals too much dmg to its user.. One problem with Manamorphose is that if you top deck it later, play it, and draw an uncastable card (Land for example) you will mana burn for 2.

Another problem is that Manamorphose actually is an "X" card in your opening hand, which you don't know what will bring to you, and this lack of information doesn't help you in mulligan decision. Of course this is irrelevant if you have a C-Mox or a Pyrokinesis.

Casting an uncounterable P.Needle (+ a 2/2 +moar) may also help against Faerie Stompy and the "not so problematic" MUC.

I suggested 1 Forest and Manamorphose(straight or mox-pitched)-along with Joe's Shusher- to be able to cast Grip, so that's not the only green source. Krosan Grip would be useful against Enchantress.

Manamorphose also helps by transforming colorless into red mana.

Anyway, I'm just suggesting ideas to the most experienced dudes, rationalizing as best as I can and hoping I'm not filling a page with any nonsense . Even if I find some time and a friend and test my ideas in MWS, he won't play most of the other good decks as well as a frequent tournament player, who will also know every nut and bolt of the few decks he's mastered. The testing will be satisfactory but not as good as it would be if one of the best Legacy players sees something here, tests it, and reports back, right?

Shusher could also combine with Burning Wish. Or he couldn't combine with the aggressive spirit of Dragon Stompy as well I feel DS's problems -ahead of inconsistency- are 1) its good-but-not-enough number of targets against black(and some white disenchanting) removal via sacrifice or not(SoLS, 1x Sophie, 1x Null Brooch(SB), Goblin Assault, Empty the Warrens and Serum Powder could be of some use - if not too slow) ; 2) its inability to deal untargeted dmg (Pyroclasm Chaliced till Shusher, Chandra rejected, but An-Zerrin Ruins hits indirectly..) and 3) its inability to disenchant! That's why I want to hit those spots.

I use 1-ofs when I want to see 1 copy of a card per game cause the second would be really useless, but I increase that number if I desperately need to see that card. I also try to keep the total number of 1 or 2-ofs that I want to see mid-late game low (below 3 or 4 max) unless they can be pitched (here meaning red).

But the question remains: What would be replaced by any suggested card, in order not to ruin DS's good to quite-not-so-bad match-ups terribly, and help against the bad?

[Wallace]

Has anyone considered Banefire here, I think it may have a home some where in DS. I mean 6 mana for 5 damage and un-counterability is sick. What do you think?

[ansset]

Has anyone considered Banefire here, I think it may have a home some where in DS. I mean 6 mana for 5 damage and un-counterability is sick. What do you think?

Emptying your hand is a lot easier than getting to 5 or more, and the added effect of Demonfire is the tipping point. Demonfire is better, and it rarely makes the cut.

[matamagos]

I'm not so sure of that. In my experience emptying my hand is not so easy.

However it's true that in theory we will play these cars in later turns, where it's easier to have no cards in hand.

I'm doubtful!

[Arsenal]

Between Seething Song, SSG, Chrome Mox, and the 2mana lands to help power stuff out, I've never had trouble vomiting my hand quickly. If you're keeping hands that don't have 2mana lands, Seething Song, SSG, and/or Chrome Mox, then you're not mulliganning correctly.

[Captain Hammer]

Guys, adding even more high cc cards (Banefire/Demonfire) to this deck is only going to make the deck less viable. Cards that get countered by a Chalice at 1 of all things. You're looking in the wrong direction.

The inconsistency of this deck and it's failure to top 8 can be blamed on two things...

1.) Dragon Stompy is just about the only deck in the metagame that doesn't play any removal that can kill the common threats Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought and Mystic Enforcer, all of which happen to be bigger than anything Dragon Stompy plays.

2.) The deck tries to support multiple cards with a cc higher than 3 alongside 4 City of Traitors. 4 City of Traitors is unplayable in a deck with an average cc higher than 2R until turn 3 at the earliest.

If we wanted to make this deck more consistent and put up more top 8s, we would...

A.) Find some 0cc or 2Rcc removal that can actually kill Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Mystic Enforcer by itself (without having to two for one your opponent, or in the case of Pyrokinesis 3 for 1 your opponent). To kill a Goyf with Pyrokinesis, you need to trade a creature, plus a red card in hand, plus a Pyrokinesis, all to take out just one threat that your opponent plays. It's making trades like that that costs games. Combine the inability to deal with Goyf with creatures that have no evasion of their own with only one exception, and you end up with a deck that falls on it's flat too often.

B.) Take a page out of Faierie Stompy and build a similar curve, where 95% of the cards have a casting cost of 2R or 3, 2 equip. No, we shouldn't cut Arc Slooger since that is the only card we have that actually can consistently trade with Goyf etc. But everything else is fair game. This means cutting away all extranous cards like Akroma, Demonfire, Pyrokinesis and yes probably even going down to Rakdos Pit Dragons. If not that, I think the deck should atleast go down to 3 City of Traitors.

I mean lets assess Rakdos Pit Dragon fairly. Assuming you have hellbent, it's about the same as a Rafiq of the Many.

Rafiq of the Many isn't a bad card, but a Rafiq of the Many that is conditional on you having no cards in hand is tiptoeing the line between playable and not playable.

Personally, I don't think 4 Rakdos Pit Dragon or justified, maybe 3 or 2, but not 4.

And aside from 3 Rakdos and 4 Arc Sloggers max, all of the other cards with a cc higher than 3 (your Akromas, Pyrokinesis, Demonfires and such) should get the boot.

Fortunately, making either change would still let the deck play the three main cards that justify it's existence... Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Chalice of the Void.

If you're keeping hands that don't have 2mana lands, Seething Song, SSG, and/or Chrome Mox, then you're not mulliganning correctly.

When I tried playing this deck by throwing back any and every hand that doesn't have an explosive opening, I found myself mulliganing down to 4-5 cards a full third of the games. Assuming that I even had an explosive start along with a creature at the point, I was stuck with an empty board and an empty hand as soon as my only threat got StPed.

The deck is inconsistent enought that imho, mulliganing away every hand that is not explosive is not wise.

I would generally as a rule of thumb keep any hand at all that allowed for either a turn one Chalice or a turn two Blood Moon/Magus even it meant that I won't be laying down a threat until turn three at the earliest.

Does this mean I was playing the deck wrong? What do you veterans of this deck think?

How often do you mulligan?

What is your criteria for mulliganing?

How often do you end up stuck with 5 or fewer card hands and nothing to show for it using this method?

[Arsenal]

When I tried playing this deck by throwing back any and every hand that doesn't have an explosive opening, I found myself mulliganing down to 4-5 cards a full third of the games. Assuming that I even had an explosive start along with a creature at the point, I was stuck with an empty board and an empty hand as soon as my only threat got StPed.

The deck is inconsistent enought that imho, mulliganing away every hand that is not explosive is not wise.

I would generally as a rule of thumb keep any hand at all that allowed for either a turn one Chalice or a turn two Blood Moon/Magus even it meant that I won't be laying down a threat until turn three at the earliest.

Does this mean I was playing the deck wrong? What do you veterans of this deck think?

How often do you mulligan?

What is your criteria for mulliganing?

How often do you end up stuck with 5 or fewer card hands and nothing to show for it using this method?

I'm not claiming your opening hand should consist of 6 mana accelerants and 1 threat, not at all, what I was trying to say is that unloading your hand early (matamagos' post) shouldn't be tremendously difficult assuming you opened with at least one accelerant in hand with a relevant turn 1/turn 2 play (such as turn 1 CotV, turn 2 Moon/3cc spell).

EDIT:

Regarding my criteria, it's pretty simple; do I have a relevant turn 1 and/or turn 2 play in my opening 7? Yes? I keep and proceed to drop whatever (turn 1 CotV, etc). No? I throw it back as having your earliest possible spell come down turn 3 is horrible in Legacy in general.

[Kuma]

Guys, adding even more high cc cards (Banefire/Demonfire) to this deck is only going to make the deck less viable. Cards that get countered by a Chalice at 1 of all things. You're looking in the wrong direction.

They only get countered if you cast them with X = 0. Come on...

That said, both cards are indeed terrible.

The inconsistency of this deck and it's failure to top 8 can be blamed on two things...

1.) Dragon Stompy is just about the only deck in the metagame that doesn't play any removal that can kill the common threats Tombstalker, Tarmogoyf, Dreadnought and Mystic Enforcer, all of which happen to be bigger than anything Dragon Stompy plays.

It's impossible for most decks running Tombstalker to cast it under a Moon.

Tarmogoyf can be killed by Arc-Slogger/Pyrokinesis/Umezawa's Jitte plus any creature in the deck.

Dreadnought is shut down by Chalice at one. There's also the option of running Shattering Spree. But you do have a point. Dragon Stompy isn't favorable against most Dreadstill lists.

Most decks running Mystic Enforcer can't play him under a Moon. Also Arc-Slogger/Pyrokinesis/Umezawa's Jitte.

2.) The deck tries to support multiple cards with a cc higher than 3 alongside 4 City of Traitors. 4 City of Traitors is unplayable in a deck with an average cc higher than 2R until turn 3 at the earliest.

Seething Song, Chrome Mox, and Simian Spirit Guide would like to have a word with you.

If we wanted to make this deck more consistent and put up more top 8s, we would...

A.) Find some 0cc or 2Rcc removal that can actually kill Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker/Dreadnought/Mystic Enforcer by itself (without having to two for one your opponent, or in the case of Pyrokinesis 3 for 1 your opponent).

This card doesn't exist. The closest thing we have is Aftershock, but that's 2RR and three damage to you.

To kill a Goyf with Pyrokinesis, you need to trade a creature, plus a red card in hand, plus a Pyrokinesis, all to take out just one threat that your opponent plays. It's making trades like that that costs games.

Actually, I've found making trades like this wins games. The decks that run those creatures are highly dependent on them. Umezawa's Jitte solves some of these problems too. I really don't know why so many people are cutting it.

B.) Take a page out of Faierie Stompy and build a similar curve, where 95% of the cards have a casting cost of 2R or 3, 2 equip. No, we shouldn't cut Arc Slooger since that is the only card we have that actually can consistently trade with Goyf etc. But everything else is fair game. This means cutting away all extranous cards like Akroma, Demonfire, Pyrokinesis and yes probably even going down to Rakdos Pit Dragons. If not that, I think the deck should atleast go down to 3 City of Traitors.

Rakdos Pit Dragon is the second best creature in the deck. Yes, we'll have trouble casting it once in a while, but there's no 2R creature powerful enough to be worth running over it to improve consistency.

I'm not sure why you hate City of Traitors so much. It's essential to the deck until Wizards prints a better double-colorless land. We need a double colorless land to operate at peak efficiency. Cutting a City would hurt consistency. What would you run over it? It's already a Mountain with a Moon out.

I mean lets assess Rakdos Pit Dragon fairly. Assuming you have hellbent, it's about the same as a Rafiq of the Many.

Rafiq of the Many isn't a bad card, but a Rafiq of the Many that is conditional on you having no cards in hand is tiptoeing the line between playable and not playable.

No way.

When was the last time Rafiq swung for 12+ damage without the aid of another card? Rafiq won't take your opponent from 17 to 0 in a single turn. RPD can also fly, an important point that seems lost on you.

Even if Rafiq cost 1RRR, 2RR, or even 3R, I still wouldn't cut any RPD for him.

It's not like it's hard for us to get Hellbent either.

Personally, I don't think 4 Rakdos Pit Dragon or justified, maybe 3 or 2, but not 4.

And aside from 3 Rakdos and 4 Arc Sloggers max, all of the other cards with a cc higher than 3 (your Akromas, Pyrokinesis, Demonfires and such) should get the boot.

Fortunately, making either change would still let the deck play the three main cards that justify it's existence... Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Chalice of the Void.

The problem with your argument is that while the expensive cards hurt consistency, they greatly increase power. Your Faerie Stompy comparison is moot, because Faerie Stompy doesn't have access to Seething Song or SSG.

There aren't any three mana cards powerful enough to replace RPD and Slogger right now.

[Captain Hammer]

You make some good points.

I agree with you about Jitte and that's why I've never gone below 3. And I'm still never going to play Akroma/Pyrokinesis/Demonfire because 8 cards that have a casting cost above 2R is the absolute maximum this deck could support.

But I'm still going down to 3 City of Traitors because I've had bad luck with playing 4. But I guess that's a personal choice.

You are right about this...

This card doesn't exist. The closest thing we have is Aftershock, but that's 2RR and three damage to you.

...there's no 2R creature powerful enough to be worth running...

But until that changes...

until Dragon Stompy gets a 2R burn spell that can deal atleast 5 damage to a creature (to kill Goyfs/Tombstalkers)

and until it gets a 2R creature that's actually comparable in powerlevel to Tarmogoyf/Tombstalker both of which effectively only cost 2 mana. (Hell I would be ecstatic even with a 2R creature at the same powerlevel as Sea Drake or Countryside Crusher).

I don't anticipate this deck top 8ing with any real frequency.

[Hopo]

until Dragon Stompy gets a 2R burn spell that can deal atleast 5 damage to a creature (to kill Goyfs/Tombstalkers)

Wildfire.dec plays similarly what it comes to not having spot removal and having just a few red sources (until Coalition Relic hits the board.) It can support Spitebellows, but people keep saying that RR in casting cost is too much for dragon stompy. I'm not sold on that, since I rarely have trouble casting my pit dragons as I still have 7 moons, song, mox, SSG and 10 mountains. If you're not afraid of the RR issue, you have yourself a 3cc red removal in Spitebellows. Also, Threaten has been mentioned before but I have no experience on that.

[bowvamp]

Spitebellows looks fun, but it's at least -1 manaburn if you plan on casting it for the optimal play:
turn 3
1 2 mana producer
2 Mountain
1 Cotv at 1
Why not just go up to 4 mana and eliminate the manaburn?

[Kuma]

Spitebellows looks fun, but it's at least -1 manaburn if you plan on casting it for the optimal play:
turn 3
1 2 mana producer
2 Mountain
1 Cotv at 1
Why not just go up to 4 mana and eliminate the manaburn?

Aftershock > Spitebellows, but I wouldn't run either. Although part of me is really tempted to test Aftershock. It can kill basics, goyfs, Tombstalkers, Dreadnoughts, and artifacts.

But the casting cost makes it too hard to support, and the three damage while tolerable, isn't helping its case.

[Corwin]

Hey guys what do you think about Taurean Mauler? I thought everyone played it but I just realized I'm the only one hehe, what are the reasons that made you choose not to have him in your deck? Because it's slow?

[Arsenal]

I play Mauler, he's a beast if you can get him out turn 1/turn 2. He either (a.) gows to retarded levels, or (b.) draws immediate attention from your opponent (possibly allowing other things to slip through). I used to be against him until I actually tested him. He's good.