@Duke: Exatcly. I tried going for something like 6/8, 8/6, 7/7 for fetches when I started the deck but between Mutavaults and Wastelands, there wasn't much room for island...
@Soulless: Submerge put the creature on top of the library, it isn't just to vial it in right away. Acctually, it is a both card and tempo loss, however it does negitate your opponents spell... hmm.
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
Has anyone considered running a wasteland-less build in exchange for more manlands? Ive been less than impressed with the card as a whole and only seems to feel good when my opponent makes a bad decision and keeps poor hands that get blown out by wasteland.
no wai, Wasteland makes Daze/Cursecatcher good. And can screw people in Combination with Stifle.
If you take out Wasteland you have to rebuild the whole deck.
Every DTB forum update is simply shuffling around the same ten decks.
Against dreadstill and landstill our standstills are dead cards MD cause they run better manlands so unless we have a vial or a lord etc dropping standstill isnt doable. However with the inclusion of Factory alongside of mutavault we can drop standstill at will (Although against certain landstill builds this isnt preferable). I think dreadstill will be heavily played at Chicago for the sheer fact that Wizards coverage of the legacy portion of worlds was almost entirely about dreadstill so people uncomfortable with the format will lend themselves to what the pros play.
Im not saying its the way to go im just wondering if anyone has tested this idea and has any results.
The wastelands are, strictly speaking, optional. The various successful color splash lists are basically trading them in for Sygg & Plow, Goyf, or Confidant.
The real downside to trading in Wastelands for Manlands is that there really aren't any compelling man-lands for the deck other than Mutavault. For mono-U the other manland choices are Stalking Stones , Mishra's Factory, Blinkmoth Nexus, and Conclave.
That said Standstill + Vial + Manlands could work OK.
Factory Complements Vault nicely and both work well with Standstill.
The reason i dont like the mana denial plan is that this is supposed to be a tempo deck, holding mana for stifle or trading a land drop for an opponents is sometimes unaffective.
Ok, first of all, against Dreadstill or any other Landstill not packing Decree of Justice (And if they have DoJ you're losing this regardless), the difference in power you get under a Standstill running 4 Mutavault/4 Wasteland than you are 4 Mutavault/4 Factory is almost nonexistant, as Wasteland can hit their manlands. In fact, the Wasteland can actually give you better position under the Standstill. To illustrate:Originally Posted by ScottCottrell
Your Factory vs. Their Manland: You're at a standoff or can trade if they have a Vault, standoff if they have a Factory, you're behind if they have a Monestary.
Your Wasteland vs. Their Manland: You trade even with the Monestary. Wasteland wins.
Your Factory vs. Their Wasteland: You trade.
Your Wasteland vs. Their Wasteland: You trade, and you control the trade timing, as you can Waste their Waste if you have no other nonbasics, but they're a lot less likely to be able to Waste yours. Wasteland wins.
The only situation where it's better to have the Factory is if they don't have a manland or Wasteland at all. Then you get:
Your Factory vs. Their Nothing: You can beat face.
Your Wasteland vs. Their Nothing: You can't beat face immediately, and if they draw two business lands before you draw another one, they'll steal control. But if you both draw one manland, you'll get to beat face. Still, Factory wins.
Now.
Second of all, Wasteland is part of what makes the deck a force. Wasteland + Stifle + Daze + Cursecatcher = A lot of asshattery for a deck to deal with.
Third, you can't just go "Unless we have a Vial or a Lord," as that's 8 cards in the deck that we will quite often have one of. The Vial grants us full Standstill superiority against any Standstill mirror, as does the Lord.
Have Threads of Disloyalty or Sower of Temptation been tested/discussed? Seems like either would be good for handling a Goyf/Bob/other relevant resloved dude. They may be worth testing in Relic's slot.
I've given Threads and Mind Harness some thought, but the way I figure it is thusly: Threads of Disloyalty is slightly slow, and it never gives you mana parity, because they will have spent less playing the creature than you did stealing it, always. Also, Threads is conditional; it can't grab Tombstalker, Rakdos Pit Dragon, Exalted Angel, etc. Granted, it's not too conditional, since it gets 'Nought, 'Goyf, goblins, other Merfolk, man-lands that blocked your dudes and somehow survived (sort of a lolz situation), etc... but it's slightly limited.
Mind Harness is theoretically kinda good for the sideboard: it mainly grabs 'Goyf but it's juicy to also be able to take Goblins, Dragons, most Zoo creatures, etc. However, it slows down your next turn by one mana, and I think it's unlikely that you'll want to keep paying its cumulative upkeep for longer than maaybe two turns, unless you're in complete top-deck mode. Mind Harness is the kind of card that's great, as long as it wins you the game outright. If it doesn't win in the next one or two turns, Mind Harness pretty much sucked... I think it's a risk, not sure if it's worth it... If I just knew that the meta I was going into was 'Goyf-infested, I'd run it in the sideboard. Otherwise, probably not.
I wouldn't play Sower of Temptation, especially without main-deck Kira, because it's slow, vulnerable, not a Merfolk, and if you notice, this deck's curve stops at three mana. The only card I've seen someone run in this deck that cost >3 and looked like it might be worth it was 3 Armageddons in a U/w list's sideboard... And the rest of his deck cost three or under. Not to be a hater, but i don't think Sower is right for this deck. All it's likely to do is eat the removal spells out of your opponent's hand, which you can do for less than four mana.
As far as creature-stealers, I think Threads is probably our best bet. I've been considering running two Threads in the sideboard, since I haven't been able to find an extra copy of Propaganda, but I think I may go with Kira or Jitte instead for those open slots... They seem better against a wider range of decks to me, since Kira owns removal and Jitte is good against most decks that run creatures.
I have a couple questions about different matchups and sideboarding.
What is a good card to board in against Stax? I imagine that Energy Flux might be good, or maybe even Hurkyl's Recall, but is there something that is more flexible?
How is aggro loam for us? I played against someone and was able to beat them with quick beats, but I dont know if I only need relics against them.
My sideboard right now is
4 Pithing Needle
3 Kira
3 Divert
3 Echoing Truth
2 Jitte
Do Jitte's come in against burn? It seems like the lifegain would be good, but I don't to have my get burned in response to an equip. Also, is BEB good against burn? I would rather have that because I can bring that in against goblins, too instead of divert.
Sorry if these questions are obvious.
@Easy Rider: These are mostly just my opinions, but here goes:
Phoenix Ignition has said that Back to Basics is good against Stax, and I would trust his opinion on it, he seems to have played the deck a lot. I don't think Energy Flux would hit Stax that hard, because their land base isn't also artifacts, so they should be able to save their key lock pieces. Hurkyl's Recall would be pretty good against them, it seems to me, and it would hit Affinity. But I think B2B is probably the more flexible card all around, since it hits a lot of archetypes, as well as anyone that's just bad at building working mana bases.
As far as against burn, I think Jitte would be good against them, as long as you can get some counters on it. The trouble is, without some way to disrupt the burn player from killing whoever is wearing the Jitte when you announce attackers, it's going to be hard to activate Jitte. For this reason, I would probably add Divert and/or Kira GGB in along as backup with Jitte, in any sideboard plan that used Jitte...
BEB has been discussed as a good card for the sideboard, but I wouldn't take out Divert for it. Divert is a good way to use the opponent's burn, discard, non-Wasteland land destruction, and many more random things against them, and it's really cheap. The worst that can happen is your opponent will fear the card and try to keep two mana open to pay for it... but if they do that, they're basically playing into your game-plan, since you would normally gain tempo by them playing more slowly.
I hope this helps.
@Everyone, for advice: *As far as one question of my own, I was wondering if playing Jitte over Propaganda in the sideboard might make sense? I'm gonna use 20, maybe 21 creatures, plus 3 Mutavaults, so I figure Jitte is pretty useable. And I don't think Goblins will be super heavily played, so I think Jitte might be more flexible... What do y'all think?
EDIT: Do y'all think it's wrong to assume that Vial Goblins is suffering a bit of a lack in popularity these days? I don't want to get caught with my pants down, but Jitte seems pretty strong to me... even against Goblins if I can get it online quickly enough.
Last edited by DukeDemonKn1ght; 02-13-2009 at 06:16 AM.
The only real problem I have with jitte is that it cost 4 to play and not 2. Also, quite often your opponent has either A: removal, with means you spent a hole turn just doing nothing. B: has some sort of block-trick, might be something like, damage on stack, sac. C: Don't even get me started on bounce. D: Needle, since they want to shut down other stuff and can no target jitte.
In theory it looks great, but I havn't had any succes with it.
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
Jitte is definitely sort of a 'late-game card' in this deck's overall plan, it's true... which is funny, because it's more of a mid-game card from an overall perspective...
Anyhow, I could see how Propaganda would hit more reliably for sure...
But wouldn't Jitte gain a bit of inevitability from a build that used Kira in the main-deck? Or are the chances of seeing both cards at the same time just too slim with two copies of each in the deck?
It is already all in the thread. Please read Phoenix primer and note the boarding plan or check a few comments/pages before where I have discussed this matter with him bringing up also the Stax matchup.@Easy Rider: These are mostly just my opinions, but here goes:
Phoenix Ignition has said that Back to Basics is good against Stax, and I would trust his opinion on it, he seems to have played the deck a lot. I don't think Energy Flux would hit Stax that hard, because their land base isn't also artifacts, so they should be able to save their key lock pieces. Hurkyl's Recall would be pretty good against them, it seems to me, and it would hit Affinity. But I think B2B is probably the more flexible card all around, since it hits a lot of archetypes, as well as anyone that's just bad at building working mana bases.
As far as against burn, I think Jitte would be good against them, as long as you can get some counters on it. The trouble is, without some way to disrupt the burn player from killing whoever is wearing the Jitte when you announce attackers, it's going to be hard to activate Jitte. For this reason, I would probably add Divert and/or Kira GGB in along as backup with Jitte, in any sideboard plan that used Jitte...
BEB has been discussed as a good card for the sideboard, but I wouldn't take out Divert for it. Divert is a good way to use the opponent's burn, discard, non-Wasteland land destruction, and many more random things against them, and it's really cheap. The worst that can happen is your opponent will fear the card and try to keep two mana open to pay for it... but if they do that, they're basically playing into your game-plan, since you would normally gain tempo by them playing more slowly.
I hope this helps.
@Everyone, for advice: *As far as one question of my own, I was wondering if playing Jitte over Propaganda in the sideboard might make sense? I'm gonna use 20, maybe 21 creatures, plus 3 Mutavaults, so I figure Jitte is pretty useable. And I don't think Goblins will be super heavily played, so I think Jitte might be more flexible... What do y'all think?
EDIT: Do y'all think it's wrong to assume that Vial Goblins is suffering a bit of a lack in popularity these days? I don't want to get caught with my pants down, but Jitte seems pretty strong to me... even against Goblins if I can get it online quickly enough.
I have played Stax quite often and I know how BtB sux because Stax effectively plays 6-8 basic plains and has almost no carddraw (accept Canopy Horizon if played at all) to quickly draw into a few. Usually I was facing MUC when BtB hit the board so there was time to recover or play around it e.g. with Moxes or double Flagstone fetching basics.
Energy Flux is just worse. It hits all the lock pieces like Crucible, Smokestax, CotV, Trinispphere along with Mox Diamond and usually also Defense Grid which I used to sideboard against blue based decks. The only problem I see is that Energy Flux never hits the table if Stax gets a 1 or 2 Turn lock. All in all Energy Flux and Hurky's Recall are very specific SB cards against decks making heavy use of artefacts and besides Affinity and maybe some Combodecks this is very limited, so BtB a choice that fits for Stax but also other more important matchups.
Regarding burn: I really think that this matchup is not very relevant. Jitte is also not good against it because usually Burn needs 5-6 Turns to kill, so before you get one of your SB Jittes online you need have it on your starting hand, play it, activate it, have a creature that stays and that with the relatively low landcount in Merfolk.... I would rather try to slow the opponent with counters and maybe hydroblast and try to outrace him with protection from divert.
Goblins is not played very often in my Meta (western germany) so i reserve no SB slot for the deck.
Have you read Kira recently? They work together like... not at all?
Last edited by elof; 02-13-2009 at 01:11 PM. Reason: spelling
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
I play Stax, and I have to say, in most cases, B2B is more of a minor inconveniece than anything. I have 7 basics, and 8 lands that produce 2 on their own. Additionally, 4 Moxen, and Flagstones fetching basics. Lastly, assuming I resolve a Crucible, I can simply cycle City of Traitors in and out of play, allowing me plenty of untapped mana.
I do agree that Energy Flux and Hurkyls are both horrible for me, but both are also highly-situational SB slots that may end up dead in your board if you don't see Stax or Affinity.
So it's really just a metagame call, but you should know that B2B is really just an annoyance more than a real problem for Stax.
Yeah, you can't equip with Kira in play. Well, not reasonably. I am not a fan of Kira anyway. I would almost certainly play Divert in any slots being used for Kira.
EDIT: OP is finally in some sort of a usable state. Tell me what you think.
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I think Jitte's probably well worth it. Jitte improves all Tribal matchups as well as Burn, all of which could stand some improving in the grand scheme of things. It shores up a lot of Merfolk's weaknesses: No removal, no lifegain, occasionally undersized threats.
Given that it's easy to build (No duals or fetches), relatively cheap, and pretty competitive, the mirror comes into factor here too. And Jitte helps in the mirror a lot more than, say, Stifle.
Speaking of the mirror, I seriously doubt this will ever be worth doing, but it's worth noting that Merfolk Assassin would be pretty ridiculous in the mirror.
@Finn: Definite improvement, thanks man. Nice to have some of the recurring debates archived in one place.
I agree, definitely better...can we possibly get some matchup-data next? Thanks for everything.
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