So where is this deck? (Natural Order)

[yawg07]

Where the FUCK is this deck that is causing Natural Order to jump from a $2 card to a freakin $12 card?
It is really that good to drop Progenitus with this thing in Legacy?
I mean, it must be, the card jumped exactly like flash did.

[Shtriga]

I guess it was way overhyped when Progenitus was spoiled, thus the increase in value, but hasn't really evolved the way they hoped for, so far.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's a lot like Flash, except twice as expensive, in a worse color, sorcery speed, takes two turns to kick in (barring Kitchen Finks or other shennanians), and loses to Wrath of God, Diabolic Edict and Meekstone.

[Atwa]

It's a lot like Flash, except twice as expensive, in a worse color, sorcery speed, takes two turns to kick in (barring Kitchen Finks or other shennanians), and loses to Wrath of God, Diabolic Edict and Meekstone.

I love how Natural Order has made Meekstone the most commonly card to be found in sideboards :)

Edit: I just realised I finally have a semi-justified reason to play my favoured spot removal card: Tariff

[Nihil Credo]

If you mean tournament placements, give people the time to build and pilot the deck. Conflux has been out for what, 12 days? That's only one week-end's worth of tournies, and it did show up at least once too (A-Hatfield's modified Thresh).

If you mean forum presence, there's been discussion of the combo in several deck threads.

Personally? Yeah, I think it's a good combo and it will see play. It reminds me a bit of Replenish, the way it gave Enchantress an expensive "oops, I rule the board" sorcery. Only it does it to more or less any deck with ~15+ green men, and it can work on turn three as well. And before you ask, no, I don't think it's broken; in testing, Mr. P is beatable with some pretty broad answers (Runed Halo, Edict, Wrath, plus a giant list of colour- and size-based hosers) and it doesn't rescue you from particularly bad board positions.

Oh, and for some real fun, look up Juxtapose.

[georgjorge]

It's a lot like Flash, except twice as expensive, in a worse color, sorcery speed, takes two turns to kick in (barring Kitchen Finks or other shennanians), and loses to Wrath of God, Diabolic Edict and Meekstone.

Unlike Flash, Order is pretty much a one-card "combo", since in the deck that you'll be playing this you'll almost always have a random green creature to sac. Building the deck this way limits your options as to what else you can include, but the point is still valid. To me, it looks a lot like Survival of the Fittest, in that it can win you the game on its own if you have any other creatures around. It is less powerful in the long game, but a lot faster (with Survival, just getting and casting a Goyf costs five; with Order, that gets you a Progenitus). You know what is REALLY good? Playing both in the same deck.

[Bryant Cook]

What most people don't understand is you're playing Tinker->Darksteel in Legacy. That doesn't die to the most common spot removal. It's going to wreck the GP.

[georgjorge]

Interesting perspective !

Though I guess playing 20 artifacts in Vintage leaves a lot more room for deck design than playing 20 green creatures in Legacy.

[Atwa]

Interesting perspective !

Though I guess playing 20 artifacts in Vintage leaves a lot more room for deck design than playing 20 green creatures in Legacy.

Goyf, Finks, Birds/Elves, Doran are all green cards already pretty populair in the format. I don't think a lot of decks need to pack it, but I certainly believe it will make an impact at the GP. I'm not saying it will win the thing, but there will be certainly be a lot of players packing it.

[b4r0n]

What most people don't understand is you're playing Tinker->Darksteel in Legacy. That doesn't die to the most common spot removal. It's going to wreck the GP.

This.

Natural Order will probably be in either a green acceleration/swarm shell or a blue aggro-control shell. So it's either coming down fast (like turn 2 or 3) or it's coming down with protection (Force, CB). Most decks in this format can't really deal with that.

[Jaynel]

What most people don't understand is you're playing Tinker->Darksteel in Legacy. That doesn't die to the most common spot removal. It's going to wreck the GP.

Hint: pack Circle of Protection in your sideboards for the GP.

[Anusien]

What most people don't understand is you're playing Tinker->Darksteel in Legacy. That doesn't die to the most common spot removal. It's going to wreck the GP.

Tinker requires artifacts. Natural Order requires guys. I'd rather play Tinker.

[b4r0n]

Tinker requires artifacts. Natural Order requires guys. I'd rather play Tinker.

Natural Order requires Tarmogoyf. That's better than artifacts in this format. Plus, you can run four copies of Natural Order in Legacy, unlike Tinker in Vintage. Seems good.

[Di]

Tinker requires artifacts. Natural Order requires guys. I'd rather play Tinker.

Except for the fact that you have 4 of them, in a color that already has a surplus of creatures in its decks, and get a target much better than Darksteel Colossus.

[quicksilver]

Tinker requires artifacts. Natural Order requires guys. I'd rather play Tinker.

This is such a stupid statement. If you want to play tinker go play it in legacy and see how far it gets you. Tinker is one of the most powerful cards every printed and is banned for good reason. To say a card is not as good as tinker has absolutly no meaning because that applies to almost every card in the game!

[Anusien]

This is such a stupid statement. If you want to play tinker go play it in legacy and see how far it gets you. Tinker is one of the most powerful cards every printed and is banned for good reason. To say a card is not as good as tinker has absolutly no meaning because that applies to almost every card in the game!

Sure, but there are people that think Tinker is better (like two posters ahead of you). I think I'd probably rather play with 1 Tinker than 4 Natural Order, just because there aren't that many creatures I'd ever want to play with. Tinker can easily fit into decks more than Natural Order can.

[Atwa]

Sure, but there are people that think Tinker is better (like two posters ahead of you). I think I'd probably rather play with 1 Tinker than 4 Natural Order, just because there aren't that many creatures I'd ever want to play with. Tinker can easily fit into decks more than Natural Order can.

If you want to use this argument, I guess you are playing the wrong format. People are simply saying it has a comparable function like Tinker has in Vintage. It doesn't matter which one is better, since we aren't allowed to play Tinker.

Not every deck in Vintage plays Tinker nor should every deck in Legacy start to play Natural Order. But I am very sure there will rise some deck abusing this card, and I'm also very sure some Tire 2 decks are going to get a boost in both popularity and in power because of Order (survival variants, elves, hell even TerraGeddon could be toying around with it).

The whole argument if Tinker is better than Order doesn't even belong here, that's a discussion to be fought over at the mana drain (in which you would be right with your point, since it's one of the most powerful cards in that format, as well as in the game).

Edit: who was talking about a $12 Order?? Starcitygames has the portal versions at $20 now. I'm glad I ordered my set from them while they were still at $4.

[puppektion]

I've got to agree with Anusien. This can't be splashed like tinker-colossus. This has to have a deck built around it. And of course, the explosiveness is going to be gone since we don't have mox/lotus and the like.

This is all hype, it'll slow down soon (like as soon as people realize it's jank)

[Di]

That's a really unfair argument because nearly all vintage decks naturally have a suite of moxen, among other artifacts, so that can easily be squeezed into any list because it's only two cards (Tinker + Colosssus). However, we aren't trying to see which one is better here, but just simply draw a comparison across formats. In this format, we have Natural Order, just like how we have Ill-Gotten Gains to Yawgmoth's Will. And look at that, Yawgmoth's Will can randomly be thrown into a vintage deck yet we don't see IGG doing the same thing. Same idea here. So what if we can't just randomly throw it into every single deck, that isn't the point. The point is measuring the strength of this combo in Legacy, not comparing it to one of the most broken spells ever printed.

God, under your reasoning, I don't see why I should play 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder, when I could rather play 1 Brainstorm 1 Ponder 1 Ancestral Recall, because that's obviously the stronger card.


Seriously, just wow. I'm at a loss for words that the argument even went to this point.

[Anusien]

Sorry, let me restate. I would rather play 1 Tinker than 4 Natural Order IN LEGACY. I think people are overstating how easy it is to build a deck that runs, what? 12+ green creatures that aren't terrible and somehow win, especially if the opponent has Tendrils of Agony or Force of Will in his deck.