I know digging up old threads is bad. But, since I am lacking in resources, is 3 crucible's enough? Or is the 4th that critical?
If this deck could play 5, it would play 8. Play 4x CoW's, it's essential to every gameplan of this deck.
Team Giancoli. Rocking the mediocrity since 2008.
I'll try digging a 4th up. Thanks.
In fact, play 5 anyway. Just don't get caught. :)
Just kidding
OK scrow, Here is my decklist, as I promised...
4 City of Traitor
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Tundra
1 Kor Haven
6 Plains
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
2 Smokestax
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
2 Exalted Angel
4 Ghostly Prison
2 Suppression Field
3 Armageddon
2 Ravages of War
3 Thirst For Knowledge
"But Bobby... You're running 62 Cards..."
-Well aware of that. My Choice. No arguement of it. I know the Numbers-
I am intensively testing new cards in the deck, with different idea's, so this is currently what I'm trying. I already went over Suppression Field, so no need to touch base on that again. Only two Smokestacks does suck, I wish I could fit more in, BUT, I'm already over 2 slots, so I would have to take out 3 cards to put in 1 Stax, and I don't know If I'm Comfortable doing that. Thirst for Knowledge, I am testing for myself, and It's been a great card advantage-getter. I still Like angel. I tried Elspeth, and with the way my deck runs, I think Angel is a better decision for it. And the reason will be short - Ghostly Prison. Runed Halo. That's the reason. Elspeth is amazing with Moats and Humilities, but I don't run either.
I want to thank whoever's idea it was to suggest Kor Haven.... I put it in, and Have had nothing but good results from it. I beat F. Stompy and Tombstalker a lot easier tonight. The card is amazing. Thank you Forum's
I Didn't put my sideboard up here, and I'm sorry. I have StP in there, and I do not want to get riddiculed* about itHalos, RoL, Supp. Field, O Ring, Grid, StP.
Currently 2-0 in tournaments (I've won 2 in a row 17 ppl and 16 ppl).
[SIZE="1"][I]Team [Insert a name here - Akron?] - [very big point with adverbs modifying adjectives and other adverbs]
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The problem however is that this is sorcery speed. And instant speed is always better than sorcery.Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
About Academy ruins, I always found it slow,but if you have 4 EE. I guess its worth a try..
@ Onebigsquirrelgod
How is the 62 card decklist working for you? I actually play 61 and I don't seem to get hurt by it at all.
stp on the side isn't much of a problem since you usually side it out or even if you have it in your deck at the same time like say, for dreadnaught, it will be a good back up plan if they take out chalice @ 1.
RAWRRRRRR
72 pages of content and someone still asks this?!! ACK!
On the engineered explosives thing:
What are you specifically using those explosives for exactly? White stax in general tends to scoff at counter balance as well as low cc creatures in general. Problems traditionally come from combo and big things/smallish things holding weapons. Oblivion ring shores up that weakness quite nicely, yet they are nowhere to be seen in the list posted.
Angels have also been revealed to be more of a crutch in a sense. Admittedly, I ran them, however they were the first up to get cut for o-rings.
It honestly seems like not enough testing was done with the original formula before you tried to change it.
I can understand cutting back on two or three lands to make room for horizon canopies, but making a somewhat messy splash for EE and TfK confuses me especially since one of the better reasons to run a splash of blue would be for ruins and not even to have them in conjunction with EE, but just to have them to make sure that a CoW, 3sphere or smoker hits the table.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
The only thing is : the whole Armageddon Stax deck is sorcery speed. There is not ONE instant in the deck. The only instant-speed thing in the deck is a few activated abilities (Mishra, and EE + Ruins in the list I posted).
In this deck, you wouldn't get any advantage playing the card at instant speed, barring the "now you know i've drawn cards" bit. Quite the opposite, playing it during your own turn is simply the better play anyway. This way you give yourself the possibility to use the cards you just drew without having to wait for your next turn.
I've considered the sorcery thing, and reached the conclusion that it's a complete detail in this deck. But you're right, I should have mentioned that in the previous post.
I quite agree here. It's only a 2-of, and this is the one thing I'm less confidant about. Maybe with 4 EEs, those would be enough anyway. Or maybe if sticking with Ruins then 3 EE would be enough. This is something that would need to be decided with further testing, I guess.
That's the problem : it "tends" to. It doesn't. I'm not talking about CB (which clearly you really don't care about).
Keep in mind we’re also hurting ourselves with Tomb. Using it twice, you’ve already done 20 % of THEIR job alone. Not using it, you’ve mulliganed yourself.
A single Tarmogoyf is enough to put you into trouble. You can’t rely on the 2 or so Oblivion Rings you’re running MD to deal with it. The only plausible way you have to deal with it is combining several lock pieces, ie Ghostly Prison + Smokestack (will need at least two turns to be useful), or Ghostly Prison + Armageddon (at least it’s immediate, but doesn’t solve the problem, that just means he’s two land drops away from finishing you).
Also, have you actually played against competent Goblins opponents ? If so, you should have noticed their propency to simply ignore 8 of our lock pieces (CotV, Trinisphere) thanks to Vial and/or Lackey, the only thing slowing them down being Ghostly Prison. Majority of the time (60 %), you won’t have it in your opening 7, and you’ll be in serious trouble during this game, because by the time it goes online or you’ve found an alternative (4cc Magus + Armageddon, or Armageddon in addition to Ghostly Prison), you’ll be at such a low life that they’ll just manage to get through. If you haven’t experienced that, I can only recommend more testing against this deck, or being glad you’re not facing it in your meta : )
And I've also not even talked about their potential MD answers (Predator, Grip (it happens MD), or simply FoW) !
Angels ? Horizon Canopies ? TfK ? I'm not running any of these. You're mixing up obsg's list in this (which doesn't run EE whih you are mentioning also, so there's definitely a mix-up on your part).
To clarify things, here is the list I'm talking about once again :
Ruins to ensure Trinisphere hitting the table ? How late are you expecting to do that ? That's a turn 4 thing (turn 3 at the earliest of earliest), how useless is that ?Code:// Lands (26) 4 [TE] Ancient Tomb 3 [EX] City of Traitors 3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair 4 [TE] Wasteland 1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1) 1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4) 4 [LRW] Plains (3) 3 [u] Tundra 1 [ST] Island (4) 2 [TSP] Academy Ruins // Creatures (3) 3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle // Spells (31) 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void 4 [DS] Trinisphere 4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds 4 [SH] Mox Diamond 4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison 3 [R] Armageddon 1 [P3] Ravages of War 4 [FD] Engineered Explosives 3 [RAV] Compulsive Research // Sideboard SB: 4 [ALA] Oblivion Ring SB: 4 [UL] Defense Grid SB: 3 [RAV] Suppression Field SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
And Smokestack is far too slow. That's the main reason I'm trying EE. Basically every time I lost with the deck was because I stabilized at a too low life level and the aggressive player only had a few damage points to get left. Smokestack is simply useless here. EE deals with the threats RIGHT NOW. Not in three or four turns' time. I know this isn’t what Smokestack is supposed to do, which is why it fails at it. But it’s what the deck needs against any kind of aggressive deck, which is the difficult matchup.
Last edited by ParkerLewis; 02-22-2009 at 09:11 AM.
4 Oblivion Ring + 4 Magus handles Goyf. Dreadnought or an early Tombstalker are concerns, but those are really about it that should have you worried.
How is EE going to help your Goblins matchup? You can take out their Vials/Lackeys, SGC tokens, or Piledriver. Pick one. Then answer their Ringleaders, SGCs and Warchiefs.Also, have you actually played against competent Goblins opponents ? If so, you should have noticed their propency to simply ignore 8 of our lock pieces (CotV, Trinisphere) thanks to Vial and/or Lackey, the only thing slowing them down being Ghostly Prison. Majority of the time (60 %), you won’t have it in your opening 7, and you’ll be in serious trouble during this game, because by the time it goes online or you’ve found an alternative (4cc Magus + Armageddon, or Armageddon in addition to Ghostly Prison), you’ll be at such a low life that they’ll just manage to get through. If you haven’t experienced that, I can only recommend more testing against this deck, or being glad you’re not facing it in your meta : )
The difference is that Smokestack can create a hard lock, and furthers the taxing gameplan of Stax. You're right in that it's not an answer when you're behind in board position, but as long as you're not drawing awfully or they're not drawing awesome (I understand these things happen), you should have advantage on the board. Smokestack functions like a different kind of Armageddon, and can effectively end the game against many permanent-light decks (aggro-control, mainly).And Smokestack is far too slow. That's the main reason I'm trying EE. Basically every time I lost with the deck was because I stabilized at a too low life level and the aggressive player only had a few damage points to get left. Smokestack is simply useless here. EE deals with the threats RIGHT NOW. Not in three or four turns' time. I know this isn’t what Smokestack is supposed to do, which is why it fails at it. But it’s what the deck needs against any kind of aggressive deck, which is the difficult matchup.
I think the function for which you're looking to use EE is filled in most lists by Prison/Magus. Both of those are big big problems for aggro decks. I'd be curious to know which aggro strategies you're worried about, especially because one of the better aggro decks right now, Merfolk, is not going to complain about you adding an Island.
You seem to want to play this deck reactive-ly, which is not it's intent. Against super-fast aggro strategies it's difficult to be proactive, but trying to change the focus of the deck to improve those match-ups is only going to dilute the prison strategy that makes Stax such an effective deck against almost everything else.
You have a point, regarding instant speed, being a little worthless in stax's case, but nonetheless it will always be better than sorcery speed. If your pointing out that being instant speed is useless because you should cast it now(during your turn)and use what you draw now because it the better play option for stax. I think Tfk being instant speed doesn't make you wait the next turn,you can cast it as soon as you need or want to, actually giving you more options in regards of when you want to draw your cards.There might also be times that you would encounter situations that being instant speed is worth it..
Also, I very very rarely get mana flooded with stax, and Stax is quite a mana hungry deck since it has quite high cc spells. I would actually rather discard my extra artifact than my extra land. So In my opinion, Tfk is still better than compulsive research. I don't plan to run academy ruins as I think its too slow.
I don't think aggro is that difficult, as I remember, I have at least a 60-40 or 55-45 match up against aggro or even more. The deck is quite taxing for zoo or goblins. If he drops a first turn lackey , you could have also dropped a first turn chalice or trinisphere early on. Sometimes we do stabalize a bit too late, and at times , Ancient tomb is at fault. I aggre that smokestack is bad for an aggro match up, as I usually side it out as well. Well, EE might work well for you since its usually more versatile than smokestack but with out smokestack, you have actually cut yourself of another win condition. What will you win conditions be ? 4 magus and 2 mishra?
Stax existed long long before Crucible of Worlds was printed, and was successful without Crucible of Worlds. Crucible of Worlds is obviously a nice tool in the deck, but as any other card there, it is a tool and nothing else. The correct amount of Crucible of Worlds is entirely metagame dependant. While I would never ever play 4 Crucible of Worlds, I tend to run between 2 and 3 copies depending on the ratio of Aggro I'm expecting to face (more Aggro obviously means less Crucibles).
After 72 pages of content (seriously, cut down on threads size already), the most surprising thing is actually that people mindlessly run 4 Crucible of Worlds. It is not a card you want to see in tons of matchups, and most of the time having it in your opening hand is not great.72 pages of content and someone still asks this?!! ACK!
Regardless the instant vs. sorcery speed discussion, Thirst for Knowledge being an instant is hardly relevant since you will always cast it at sorcery speed anyway. No need to wait for the opponent's EOT when you can draw more lock components right now. Since your only real recursion engine is Crucible of Worlds, and since you run high lands for Mox Diamond, Compulsive Research is indeed better than Thirst for Knowledge. In mid or late game, you will be digging for lock components, not for lands. Vintage builds run Thirst for Knowledge or Intuition because of Goblin Welder.
I would never run fewer than 4 Crucible. Yes, Stax existed before Crucible. It got better with Crucible. It existed before Trinisphere too. Got better.
Crucible is key to the strategy of the deck and has incredible synnergy with so many pieces:
Smokestack
Armageddon
Wasteland
Mishra's Factory
Horizon Canopy
Mox Diamond
City of Traitors
Knowing that against decks like Thresh (arguably the best deck in Legacy) a Wasteland + Crucible lock basically wins the game, I won't cut them down. I ran 3 for awhile, added the fourth, and never went back. The "wastelock" also cripples Landstill, Team America, and buys time against Ichorid, etc.
I am not saying you should blindly play 4 Crucible, but you should play 4 Crucible because it's the right number. Obviously if you see nothing but Goblins, maybe change that. Otherwise, play 4.
Crucible of Worlds is definitly not key to the deck's strategy. Smokestack is. Chalice of the Void is. Trinisphere is. Not Crucible. There are plenty matchups where you do not want to draw Crucible of Worlds, and tons more where it is a dedicated late game card.
Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland is not an autowin against Threshold (arguably not the best deck in Legacy, and by far). If they have Tarmogoyf out, you will lose the game if all you are allowed to draw are Crucibles and Wastelands. Against Threshold, Crucible is your win condition, a good one once you have cut down their ressources and hold their threats. Crucible is only good in combination with other much needed cards. It is just plain atrocious on its own. As such, running less than 4 makes complete sense.
4 Crucibles is not the right number. It is just a flawed opinion a lot of players have because they focus on Wasteland recursion, and emphasis the synergy with Smokestack. Smokestack wins the game on its own without needing Crucible of Worlds recursion as a back up, and Wasteland recursion is only relevant when opponent cannot get off it, or win the game. My latest White Stax list, which is a few monthes old because Blue Stax is better, runs 2 Crucible of Worlds. I would not run 3 or 4 unless metagame shifts a lot.
I agree it does. Except you're not running them MD, which means you're more than likely going to have trouble winnning game 1.
And with the time issues, we all know it will be a challenge for this dek to proceed to win two games fast enough after that.
EE won't take care of them all. It will take care of the currently problematic ones. Either the most dangerous ones at the moment, or simply the ones that are sticking in spite of Magus. In any case, it's a necessary thing to do, and EE is simply the best card to actually do it in time.
I know what you mean. That's the basis of how the deck should function. Problem is, the whole Prison / Magus strategy is often too slow in this format. Yes, it's effective, but it still lets the opponent do a few additonal points of damage. And when it comes online, you're far often too close to death already.
The aggro strategies I'm worried are basically... all of them. In almost every instance, I've felt that the current configuration (Prison, Magus, & Stack) was simply a bit too slow to make the cut. I've lost far too many games where everything was in place but i was short even only one or two life points to absorb their final gasp.
In this aspect, the current configuration I'm testing (EE, Ruins, CR) has really shined for me since the beginning. Today again I won a match against Faerie Stompy because I've been able to repeatedly deal with two Sea Drakes (the first one was equipped with SoFI) thanks to a single recurring EE @ 3. There is no way I could have done that with any kind of Prison / Stack / Oblivion Ring combination (unless by seeing multiple Rings). Stack would have just done nothing in time, and O Ring would have taken care of the first Drake, but would have left the equipment on the table and not done anything about the second Drake.
Finally, you're very correctly mentioning the potential repercussion on the deck's effectiveness against other strategies. Let me ask you : are there any matchups where the loss of Smokestack & O Ring for EE, Ruins and a drawing suite is that much of a problem ?
Yes, that's what they are, except it's only 3 Maguses. So far it hasn't proved a problem, mainly because I usually end up stabilizing and taking control on a higher life total and thus can swing more agressively. But i could understand it if the need for something additional were to arise.
On the instant vs sorcery thing, see Toad's post (or mine last page), as this is my position exactly.
Ok, first of all, let's start with this argument:
That has to be the most retarded point I have ever heard. If that situation is the case and all you draw is (Trinisphere, Chalice, lands, Mox Diamond, etc) you will lose. I didn't say against Thresh you want to draw a ton of Crucibles and Wastelands. It is reasonble that in addition to Wasteland and Crucible you will draw (Magus of the Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison), in which case you will quickly stabilize, and they will not have much hope for attacking. (And just to note, saying it is arguably the best deck also means it is arguably not the best deck)Crucible of Worlds + Wasteland is not an autowin against Threshold. If they have Tarmogoyf out, you will lose the game if all you are allowed to draw are Crucibles and Wastelands.
Also the synnergy with Armageddon, and our ability to quickly recover and set a lock. There is that part too. I am less likely to throw down an Armageddon knowing I have 1-2 Crucibles buried somewhere in my deck than if I know there are 4. It also means Factory becomes a permanent chump blocker and Horizon Canopy doubles our draws every turn. Additionally, if you "focus on Wasteland recursion" against decks that worry about Wasteland (Thresh, Team America, Landstill, etc), that's probably a solid play. And placing "emphasis on the synergy with Smokestack" also chews up your opponents resources, and when combined with other cards in the deck wins you the game.4 Crucibles is not the right number. It is just a flawed opinion a lot of players have because they focus on Wasteland recursion, and emphasis the synergy with Smokestack.
The point is, I will always want an early Crucible and I never mind seeing a second one either. Several decks have removal for it, and I can always throw it away to a Stack if I need to. You can play your 2 Crucibles, I will continue to enjoy the consistent draws that makes Stax good.
I usually dont reply to blatant and pointless flames, but still, since you do not seem to understand how Stax works ...That has to be the most retarded point I have ever heard.
First thing is here, a turn one Crucible of Worlds does nothing relevant. A turn one Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere stops Threshold down cold. I want my opening cards to be relevant on turn one when I play Stax, since most of my game plan revolves around this opening hand. Turn one Crucible of Worlds is a very weak play on its own.If that situation is the case and all you draw is (Trinisphere, Chalice, lands, Mox Diamond, etc) you will lose.
Magus of the Tabernacle is enough for stopping Tarmogoyf, no need for Crucible of Worlds here. Furthermore, if you have Ghostly Prison or Magus of the Tabernacle out, a single Wasteland is usually enough. If not, Engineered Explosives or Ensnaring Bridge will do the job faster than Crucible of Worlds. When facing threats, Crucible is clearly the last card I want to draw.It is reasonble that in addition to Wasteland and Crucible you will draw (Magus of the Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison), in which case you will quickly stabilize, and they will not have much hope for attacking.
If you need to chump block every single turn, you are in a pretty bad shape already. I dislike running cards that shine when I'm losing. Once again, instead of drawing this Crucible, I'd rather have drawn an Explosives, or an Oblivion Ring. Cards that do actual stuff here.It also means Factory becomes a permanent chump blocker
A cute late game play that does not require you to run 4 Crucibles, since, well, it is late game only. A weak argument overall. You do not even run 4 Horizon Canopy anyway. Instead of Canopy + Crucible, you could have gone for Academy + Explosives instead, for the same global effect. (reinforcing a lock). It is fairly obvious to see that Explosives is better than Crucible early game.Horizon Canopy doubles our draws every turn
These are 3 good matchups, even without Wasteland recursion. Having access to Wasteland recursion does not turns the matchup around, and is thus not a needed play and definitly not an argument for running 4. Once again, running actual answers is better than a topdecked Crucible there.Additionally, if you "focus on Wasteland recursion" against decks that worry about Wasteland (Thresh, Team America, Landstill, etc), that's probably a solid play.
Smokestack chews up the opponent resources, you do not need Crucible of Worlds to do that. 100% of your deck is a permanent, so you can handle Smokestack @ 1 forever, without the need of Crucible of Worlds. No opposing deck can do this.And placing "emphasis on the synergy with Smokestack" also chews up your opponents resources
A deck running 4 offs only is not always consistent. You can run 1 offs and 2 offs, and still have a consistent deck - see Vintage decks for example. You can have 4 offs only, and still be horribly inconsistent - see Belcher for example. Stax is not good because it has 4 offs all the way. It is good because it has 4 Wasteland, 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphere. Everything else is fillers. Even if it runs 4 offs only, White Stax will always lack consistency since it relies on fast mana to power out its spells, and completely lacks card draw and tutors to smooth his topdecks. Threshold is consistent, Stax is not. Running 2 or 3 Crucibles does not make Stax less consistent. It actually decreases the mulligan rate, as hands with 2 Crucibles should be automatically sent back.I will continue to enjoy the consistent draws that makes Stax good.
The only matchup where you NEED 4 Crucible of Worlds is the mirror match, because Crucible is the best card there. Stax mirrors are yet to be heard of on a large Legacy scale.
Not a flame. That point was useless. I didn't say you should drop Crucible first turn. An opening Chalice or Trinisphere hurts Thresh, but hardly stops the deck. Magus stops 1 'goyf. Magus and Prison can stop 2. So can Magus + wastelock. Or Prison and Wastelock. EE is tough to play in this deck, even with Moxen. Ensnaring Bridge has been discussed and dismissed. If I need to chump every turn, and am in bad shape, at least I am not dead. It will at least buy me a few turns to find an out. I already have O-Rings, so that point fails to show why I should drop Crucibles. Smokestack gets infinitely better with Crucible. With Crucible you can run Smokestack @2 indefinitely, which is much harder for them to cope with. Vintage runs lots of low-count cards, given that they have tutors and lots of draw. See Ancestral Recall, Demonic Tutor, etc.
If White Stax lacks consistency, as you claim, then why would you run a 2-of card, further decreasing the consistency? Seeing 2 Crucible is as likely as 2 Trinisphere, also useless, or 2 of any other card in the deck. With no real draw power, why wouldn't you run 4 of all the hard-lock pieces? It just allows you to get the lock down sooner, more reliably.
As I already stated, consistency is not related to the amount of 4-ofs you play. Playing only 2 Crucible of Worlds does not decrease consistency.
I run all the hard-lock pieces as a 4 of. That is, Smokestack, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and Wasteland. These are the important pieces here.With no real draw power, why wouldn't you run 4 of all the hard-lock pieces?
I also run 4 Magus of the Tabernacle and 4 Ghostly Prison, since even if these are not hard-lock pieces, I want one in my opening hand. The only cards I do not run as a 4 of are the conditional cards, or these I do not want to see in my opening hand, and this includes Crucible of Worlds (which falls in both categories). Since Crucible is not part of the core lock engine, I do not mind not drawing one for the first part of the game, and often for the entire game.
@PL
I think confusing your list with with OBSG's list is more accurate. If you want to make a rebuttal or something, that's cool, but I wasn't talking about your list...nor had I ever seen it before you posted it the most recently.
Last edited by Mordel; 02-23-2009 at 02:31 AM.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
Dear Frog:
Crucible is one of the best cards in the deck. All of the cards that are better than Crucible are in there because they are good with Crucible. I'm talking Smokestack, Armageddon, lands. All these cards get better when your graveyard is also your hand. Chalice of the Void isn't one of the best cards. In some matchups it's obviously great, and it can win the game if it stops an opponents land-light Brainstorm. However I've never won a game because I drew Chalice on turn 4. I have won a game because I drew Crucible on turn 4. Or whatever. I'm sure you get it.
Dear Scrow:
Let's keep it clean. I agree with your views but the manner in which you are presenting them is destructive and an eyesore on my computer. See you at the Grand Prix.
"Michael opens with Lotus Petal, Academy Ruins, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Stifle. I Force of Will the Stifle, but he has Force of Will backup. I Ponder on turn one and again on turn two, but fail to find a Swords to Plowshares before he has smashed me twice. " That's losing to Mike Sanchirico.
Team Bad Guys.
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