I don't think I'd be comfortable with less than four Crucibles (or conceivably three). I think the reasons have been chewed on often enough, but just for the hell of it:
I can't think of many non-combo decks that aren't susceptible to Waste/Crucible. If that was the only thing, okay. But it also helps alleviate the big beater problem with Factories (incidentally protecting one of the very few real win conditions), and offsets the disadvantage inherent in the mana base (Diamonds, Cities, and - indirectly - Tombs; which makes the early game more stable as well as faster). Smokestack is kind of slow. Well, with Crucible it's faster. (Plus, it gets rid of "dead" Crucibles). I can now play Armageddon even if I'm behind instead of just when I'm on the offensive (which makes taxing better). It makes my Factories attack into Bobs.
A first- or second-turn Crucible does not do nothing. It may do nothing now, but if it'll do impressive stuff a little later, that's fine. It's not like I'm going for the tenth-turn win.
![f|i[p]'s Avatar](image.php?u=1207&dateline=1151478899 "f|i[p]'s Avatar")
![Send a message via Yahoo to f|i[p]](images/misc/im_yahoo.gif)
@crucible
In all honesty I would never go down to less than 3 crucibles. If I were to run less than 4, it will be 3. I don't actually mind having 3 as I usually don't need it in my opening hand. Crucible is good as counter bait at times,it gets better with smokestack, armageddon and wastelock. It will be hard to compare as vintage stax run 3 crucibles, one thing about vintage stax is that they run tutors, and they don't run main deck armageddons. I still think crucible is essential to the decks strategy. If I were forced to drop a crucible, for a better card, I would drop it to 3 and no less.
@debates for certain cards
If you have made your point, and do not wish to change your view, I find that there is no need to flame and discuss it further. You can not force your point of view on someone. Lets be constructive.
Yes, I apologize. I get a little... heated at times. Sorry for my rants and whatnot.
Anyway, I really would like to increase Horizon Canopy, but I don't know if I like the risk. It sucks that it deals you damage, but I like seeing it reliably, and it adds another source offor my SB options. Any thoughts?
Oh my god, you guys posted alot of crap during the weekend. About the Cucible issue, Nihil pretty much summed it up:
About a 62-card deck with only 2 Smokestacks, and the other deck which is Smokestackless: you guys just have to learn to handle a Smokestack in my opinion. Yes, it's slow, but once you really know how to use it, it's the most powerful card in your deck (unless you're playing against Goblins or combo, but you should win those match-ups anyway). The problem with Smokestack is, you really need to learn how to use it. How high to stack it, and what to keep and what to sac in certain situations. It's not something I can explain over the forum, but I can tell you, dropping below 3 is probably a mistake. There have been lists of Staxless Stax before, but they all failed. Feel free to prove me wrong though.Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
As for my sideboard :with the green splash
I currently have these:
3 exalted angel
2 O rings
2 Wrath of God
3 K. grips ---I could even go to 4 if really needed
3 choke
2 needle/EE/Keg could be a different card
These are my choices,
I still keep exalted angel on the side as I found her to be a lot of help in certain match ups. I can bring her in for magus who would useless in certain match ups or add up the pressure along side magus
I have wrath on my sideboard still, against aggro. It helps a lot even as a 2 of.
I don't run graveyard hate as I usually don't find the need for it.
@horizon canopy
If your running a light green splash, its worth it. its not really there to provide you with mana, its actually there to give you draw.
I have won a game because I drew Crucible on turn 4.... and this is exactly the reason why I do not run 4 Crucible.but if it ll do impressive stuff a little later.
The synergy between Crucible of Worlds and Wasteland, Smokestack or any other card might be very good, this is not a reason for running 4. Tangle Wire has massive synergy with Wasteland, Smokestack, Trinisphere and Armageddon, yet it isnt played in Legacy Stax. Sphere of Resistance has massive synergy with all these cards, yet it is a mere sideboard card most of the time. Synergy does not dictate everything. You usually run 4 copies of a card you want to see in your opening hand every single game, and usually these that you do not mind seeing in multiple copies over the course of a game.
Do Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere fall into that category? Yes, and this is why you do run 4. If you can, you will want to drop one turn one every single game. Do Crucible of Worlds fall into that category? No. You want to see a Wasteland or a Smokestack before going for the Crucible of Worlds. You almost never want to drop Crucible of Worlds on turn one. To be honest, there are no matchup where I want to drop a Crucible of Worlds before turn three or turn four, and there are matchups where you want Crucible of Worlds by turn five or six, never sooner. Yes, Crucible of Worlds is what glues all the lock components in some matchups. But glue is only good when you have actual stuff to glue together, or else it just stays around doing nothing, except wasting you mana and draws. This is why running less than 4 Crucible of Worlds is completely acceptable, and often the proper call.
The fact that a player named Nihil Credo states that 4 Crucibles is mandatory does not mean it is correct. My intensive Stax testing made me reach a way different conclusion, and I can guarantee that I have played and tested Stax much more than anyone else on these boards. Long term Stax players I have discussed this issue with reached similar conclusions, and run 2 or 3 Crucibles, sometimes with additional copies in the SB.
... and in Sun Tower and in Eternal Garden and ... The point I am trying to make is, if Armageddon Stax is really so dependent on Crucible, maybe it's a symptom of a deeper problem (with the build and/or strategy).
True. That's partially why I developped Dutch Stax. Armageddon Stax, is as the name indicates, very reliant on Armageddon. The entire deck is built on the fact that you will have lands in your graveyard, and incidentally, your opponent too.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
@Toad
You may want to consider being a bit more open with information like that, no?
In any event, as numerous people before me have suggested: four crucibles are run because between the synergy with smoker, geddon, wasteland, combating opposing wastelands, allowing for one to go city of traitors--->city of traitors, chalice etc without hosing yourself and other such plays and a deck that has no actual draw or search, four is a good number to run because it maximizes your chances of drawing one. Crucible does nothing on its own, however it is an important cog in the mechanism of the deck's operation whether it is used to force an opponent to search up basics and run at partial efficiency or allow you to ramp a smoker up to two or three. Even in a variant that I play which doesn't require geddon at all, I still run four if only because I like to have another ready following the first being countered.
I honestly don't see why I had to point that out when it has been pointed out a number of times before. As far as I am concerned that is all there is to running four crucibles. I don't need any other reasons.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
This is getting heated. This isn't good.
It has been made clear that the vast majority of people thinks 4 Crucible is the right number. Refrain from just piling up on that point and stick to facts.
Also, whether someone is a random or the Almight God of Eternal Magic does not concern the point we're discussing, so it should not be brought up by either camp.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
The reason to run 4x crucible is as Mordel said. Your first is likely to get countered. And drawing into another one, or playing multiples even is huge when you get a stack online. Besides crucible making mox diamond an even better turn 1 play, it is a bomb that your opponent will most likely scramble to handle as soon as possible. Crucible will just win you games, that point is not even argueable.
TEAM AWESOME
Well, at least we smell better
Good call!
I forgot about the mox, city o traitors/tomb, crucible play on the first turn that allows for a strong first turn play and a land drop on the second turn to allow you to get a second turn chalice for two, magus or in my case a moat/humility much of the time.
I also forgot to mention how nice crucible is with "factorays".
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
I agree with Credo, the X Crucible of Worlds discussion is over. Some people run 3, most people run 4. I haven't seen a single post suggesting someone is willing to change their list.
On a different matter, I cut my Horizon Canopy and added a second Kor Haven. Someone above said that it was amazing in there deck, and I realized having it more often is probably more amazing. I know it's Legendary, but so is Flagstones and I almost never hit that problem. Kor Haven has been my out to Tarmogoyf or Tombstalker many games, and I'm sure we can agree on the fact that an opposing deck presenting 1 large threat can be trouble for Stax, since none of our cards are designed to deal with single threats quickly. I don't know if I can take credit for suggesting Kor Haven, but I do know that in July a friend and I worked on a Stax list that won a Mox Emerald and we had Haven in the build.
On a more serious note, I'm having a huge problem with my board.
3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Suppression Field
3 Runed Halo
2 Powder Keg
1 Exalted Angel
I know the 2 Keg/ 1 Angel is weird, it was 3 Angel but I only own 2 Kegs. The first three slots are solid in what I'm taking to Chicago, please don't attempt to convince me Needle is better or to splash green. I understand the strengths but I'm not interested. I see Halo either being huge or dead all weekend. Naming Goyf, Trygon Predator, Wombstalker, Naught or whatever is all good, but could this slot simply be a better card? Also, exactly how good is Powder Keg, and what else can be used?
"Michael opens with Lotus Petal, Academy Ruins, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Stifle. I Force of Will the Stifle, but he has Force of Will backup. I Ponder on turn one and again on turn two, but fail to find a Swords to Plowshares before he has smashed me twice. " That's losing to Mike Sanchirico.
Team Bad Guys.
Kor haven is quite nice and two makes sense, but I you must be one of the luckiest stax players on the planet to have never run into an issue with flagstones being legendary.
I still run four regardless because they are just that good, but I have had to basically been time walked because of them before.
I like powder keg a lot. I am sort of undecided on field though: I ran them for a while, but most of the decks that they come in against use duals, which I like to waste and while suppression field doesn't make wasting lands impossible, it does make it irritatingly limiting in using three mana essentially to destroy one land.
If I saw more 4c landstill, my feelings would probably change towards them a lot though.
-It could be about four of anything and I would agree.
I agree here. I play 3 because I hate timewalking myself when I hit 2 of them. I would love to play more Kor Haven, but with it being Legendary, I can't afford the risk. And as far as Flagstones being Legendary, they at least replace themselves if you play 2.
My board is currently:
3x Powder Keg (versatile sweeper)
4x Pithing Needle (again, protection from EE, Deed, etc)
4x Choke (really wrecks blue, which is a large portion of the format)
4x Krosan Grip (Deed/EE/Top, etc, as well as taking out a Dreadnought)
That's what I currently run, but still haven't gotten to test against Dreadstill since the change. I love Choke though.
I never ran 2x less because of the Legendary issue than because it's yet another colourless source. If your white mana count remains healthy, go ahead; in my case, I prefer to use maindeck 3-4x Exalted Angels which put further stress on the manabase (and they really want 4x City of Traitors too).
By the way, I think I love you now; Kor Haven's been my pet card for a while (if we're interested in dates, according to the search button I first tested it in February '08).
Runed Halo is pretty great since, unlike the other main contender Oblivion Ring, it has a lot of synergy with the rest of your deck (plus you may meet Progenitus). The main downside is the coloured mana cost: if you run less than ~11 white mana sources (plus Moxes) I'd be concerned about it.On a more serious note, I'm having a huge problem with my board.
3 Aura of Silence
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Suppression Field
3 Runed Halo
2 Powder Keg
1 Exalted Angel
I know the 2 Keg/ 1 Angel is weird, it was 3 Angel but I only own 2 Kegs. The first three slots are solid in what I'm taking to Chicago, please don't attempt to convince me Needle is better or to splash green. I understand the strengths but I'm not interested. I see Halo either being huge or dead all weekend. Naming Goyf, Trygon Predator, Wombstalker, Naught or whatever is all good, but could this slot simply be a better card? Also, exactly how good is Powder Keg, and what else can be used?
I'm not a fan of Powder Keg; it's all too often a worse Oblivion Ring. It used to be a good consideration when Ichorid and Empty the Warrens were everywhere and your Prisons not always fast enough; now they're on the decline and less of a concern. I'd just play 3x Angels here; they're nice to have against aggro, even if they hit a turn later or two due to less white mana, and in general they're pretty important to have somewhere in order not to lose to time.
Sphere of Resistance is a card I consider rather narrow, and the symmetry is often nasty. Since you already have an abundance of cards to bring in against Brainstorm/Ponder/Top decks, I'd either replace these with Ethersworn Canonist if you're worried about combo, or take a gamble on Tendrils deck and devote the slots to other matchups (you're not defenseless anyway: MD artifacts plus Halo plus AoS for LEDs/Petals/Moxes plus Angel for a clock are a decent package).
Also, if you can get your hands on a copy of The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, it's a great 1-of for the sideboard.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
I prefer Glowrider against combo (which is only ANT in my meta) because they can't duress it away and it doesn't die to Serenity. It isn't as easy to play on turn 1, but usually ANT doesn't win that fast.
Another advantage of Glowrider is that he is a clock (even though he's not that fast).
I don't even board against combo, but that seems like a decent play. Although I think Sphere is better simply because it is easier to cast turn 1. But Chalice/Trini usually wins that match anyway, in my experience.
I Figure that the Aura of Silence is for the Enchantress/Stax Matchup, and the Spheres are good against the ANT/TES/Belcher Matchup. I Found that Although AoS is good, I find Rule of Law serves as an amazing card against both of the scenario's. It Limits Enchantress to play 1 spell a turn, which wins the game for me. It Also Makes Combo Lose pretty easily. I'm Finding that a lot of 2 CC in the sideboard can go both ways. There has been times where chalice @ 2 has been out, and I need to resolve Runed Halo. I am a huge fan of defense grid though, because it just helps me against blue decks all day long. I find That even though Chalice is great, I find myself sideboarding StP's, to stop the early Predator, Naught, Goyf, Wombstalker.
[SIZE="1"][I]Team [Insert a name here - Akron?] - [very big point with adverbs modifying adjectives and other adverbs]
The decision has been made, Keg is out and it's back up to 3 Angel.
Sphere of Resistance has been good for me. I don't use it as a tool to beat combo decks, I use bring it in during matchups that I want to slow down. Burn, Sligh, Combo etc. can go too fast for me to stay in the game, and a Sphere can really buy the time you need to resolve 3-Sphere and then Geddon before you die. Or Prison/Moat, whatever.
"Michael opens with Lotus Petal, Academy Ruins, Phyrexian Dreadnaught, and Stifle. I Force of Will the Stifle, but he has Force of Will backup. I Ponder on turn one and again on turn two, but fail to find a Swords to Plowshares before he has smashed me twice. " That's losing to Mike Sanchirico.
Team Bad Guys.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote