[OLD] UGr Threshold

[RogueMTG]

What is the general concensus in regards to countertop or trigon in a canadian thrash build? Or does their inclusion take it too far from tradition for the deck to even be called that?

I tried out Canadian Trash w/Trygon @ the Binghamton Duel for Duals tournament. I was thinking there was going to be a lot of Dreadstill & Merfolk so I tried to plan accordingly

Went 3-2-1 into the top 16 (bleh). Heres what I played:

Main Deck:
Lands (18):
2 Foothills
2 Strand
2 Delta
3 Trop
3 Volcanic
3 Wasteland
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures (10):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Trygon Predator

Spells (32):
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fire/Ice
3 Daze
1 Rushing River
1 Wipe Away

Silly Sideboard:
2 MERFOLK ASSASSIN
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
1 Volcanic Fallout
2 Firespout
2 Disrupt
1 Fire/Ice
2 Echoing Truth
1 Krosan Grip

I threw the deck together 10 minutes before heading out to the tournament, I had never played it before round 1:

Round 1 -forgot to record his name, oops- (UWb) Landstill: (Loss 0-2 / 0-1 Total).
Game 1: Landstill does what it does, he has an answer for everything I play and eventually finished me w/Solider tokens.

Game 2: I mulligan to five, the game still takes FOREVER, I end up losing to DOUBLE Eternal Dragon beats.

Round 2 Josh playing Merfolk: (Win 2-0 / 1-1 Total).
Game 1: I see all four bolts and 2 Fire/Ice. His dudes stand no chance, and I get there w/Tarmo Beats.

Game 2: I side in 4 Blasts, the 2 Assassins and my sweepers. Land a Trygon Predator that mauls his Vials. Blasts/burn clean up his dudes and eventually I finish him w/double bolt to the dome.

Round 3 Ryan playing UW Dreadstill: (Tie 1-1 / 1-1-1 Total).
Game 1: I land an early Mongoose, and ride him to victory, countering everything relevant.

Game 2: I try the same strategy w/Tarmogoyf, I manage to get him to 1 life before he finally deals w/the goyf. We go into top-deck mode, except he has a Top and I don't, he finds Counterbalance before I find a burn spell. Eventually time is called and we head into turns, he eventually gets me w/Trinket Mage + Factory beats on the last possible turn. D:.

Round 4 Eric Playing GB Rock: (Win 2-0 / 2-1-1 Total).
Game 1: He gets mana boned. Quick victory w/a turn 2 tarm. I don't side at all.

Game 2: He chooses to play, drops a fetch and cracks it for a Bayou before I have stifle mana open. I do however, have a wasteland, and it ends up wrecking him to the point of not playing any other spells the entire game.

Round 5 Brian Playing UGb Confidant Thresh: (Win 1-1-1, 3-1-1 Total).
Game 1: All these games were good, stressful, and tended to swing back and forth. I managed to win game one on the back of a turn 1 Nimble Mongoose. I try to keep his threats off the table w/countermagic & burn, I eventually win by EOT Wipe Awaying his Tarm to get in there for 3 w/the goose, and then toss a bolt at his face.

Game 2: We trade Geese early, and then he Reanimate's mine and starts beating me with it. (he be disrespectin' the goose O_O!) He lands Confidant, it almost kills him flipping things like FoW, but he smother's it in time and eventually gets me w/Tarmo + Mongeese beats.

Game 3: We enter into a more back and forth kind of game. Eventually we go into turns, both at super low life, neither of us manage to kill the other. I go "damn, can't make it w/another tie.." He thinks for a minute, decides he's not going to make top 8 either way, and graciously scoops to me so I can have a chance at getting in if I win the next round. Awesome dude.

Round 6 Anthony Playing Merfolk (Loss 1-2 / 3-2-1 Total)
While shuffling up we discuss some of the matchup's, he asks how my merfolk matchup seems to be, I told him: "It seems pretty good, hopefully that's what you're playing?" and his buddy (Josh, the merfolk guy I beat in round 2) came over and told him to watch out for me, I'm tricky >_>. Turns out Anthony was friends w/my best bud Travis, small world.

With both of us at X-1-1, we're playing for the last spot in the Top 8, which means at least a playset of Duals.

Game 1: Just like game 1 of round two, bolt + fire/ice take care of his dudes, and I get in there with beats. Fast game.

Game 2: I have to mulligan to 5 again, I keep a shakey one lander but I have have ponder and 2x Brainstorm. I see no lands with any of them, and eventually I lose to double Aether Vial beats. Fast game the other direction.

Game 3: See game 2... more mulliganing, more one land hands. My first turn ponder finds nothing useful, I shuffle, draw a brainstorm. He has Daze for my brainstorm, and then wasteland for my only remaining land. I fail to draw any more mana sources and die shortly after.

Well, that match sucked, it was the first match the deck seemed like it wasn't running smoothly. But that happens sometimes.

Anthony went on to wreck the top 8 and take the top 2 split, which I know I wouldn't have done (2 Ichorid decks in there, that I had ZERO plan against outside of E-Truthing Zombie Tokens), so good for him.

I ended up in exactly 16th place, taking home some store credit.

Final Thoughts:
Trygon Predator: was ok, he shouldn't be more than a 2 of though if you run him. The flying was more relevant than the destruction ability, I almost always wished he was Serendib Efreet instead.

Fire/Ice: Should have been 4x in the MD, it was just plain good.

Merfolk Assassin: My goal of the day was to wreck someone w/merfolk assassin, unfortunately I never drew him when I did play against merfolk, and every pre-board game against merfolk went better than SB games. He was worth the Laughs when I put him on the table after de-boarding, but that slot should probably be something useful in the future.

[Shugyosha]

@post above

Hey, that is a pretty neat decklist! Quite inspiring. Winter orb in the board looks like a sweet tech, but in what specific matchups do you board it in?

No love for pyroclasm, disrupt or submerge?

Depends on the meta. I like Submerge a lot but I still don't see why Disrupt should be good. There are better cards in my opinion. In the meta at that time I also didn't need Clasm and I think Tempo Thresh can do without them very well anyways.

[Smog]

I was considering trying a ugrw build.


// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills

3 [A] Tropical Island
2 [R] Volcanic Island
2 [R] Tundra

1 [5E] Island (3)
1 [9E] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder

4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DD2] Daze

4 [B] Lightning Bolt
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares

4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top


Thoughts?

[spirit of the wretch]

-12 cards with CC2 isn't tech with CB. This curve will weaken CB extremely!
-17 lands don't seem enough to support 4 colours. I'd rather play 18. Alix Hatfield's mana base from the duel for duals looked quite nice (-the dryade land obviously):
4 flooded strand
4 wooded foothills
2 city of brass
2 tropical island
2 tundra
2 volcanic island
1 plateau
1 dryad arbor

[Smog]

UGbw runs cb with an even steeper curve @2 quite successfully.

[Henrik]

Depends on the meta. I like Submerge a lot but I still don't see why Disrupt should be good. There are better cards in my opinion. In the meta at that time I also didn't need Clasm and I think Tempo Thresh can do without them very well anyways.

Agreed, I haven't found disrupt very useful either, but I am quite dependent of both submerge and clasm, since I face a lot of both aggro loam and tribals. But I am interested in your use of winter orb, could you please elaborate on this? What matchups does it come in? I am guessing control such as MUC and landstill, but please, enlighten me of your use of it.

[Shugyosha]

but I am quite dependent of both submerge and clasm, since I face a lot of both aggro loam and tribals.

Yeah that's exactly the matchups I like to run these cards, too.

But I am interested in your use of winter orb, could you please elaborate on this? What matchups does it come in? I am guessing control such as MUC and landstill, but please, enlighten me of your use of it.

Well, in theory they come in against control decks to have something against their lands in case Waste/Stifle didn't screw them during the first turns (which sadly happens quite often when I play). In addition to MUC and LS they are also meant to be used against Rock and Survival (not the Elf variant). I tried them against Loam but they are too shaky here because of Mox Diamond.
Overall I wasn't satisfied with Winter Orb in the board, though. You don't have Werebear/Vial like Winterthresh and its often kinda dead because the problem is already on the board or their manabase is already in ruins. So I would play other cards instead that are more in the "direct answer" department.

[undone]

Is the red varient of counter threshold better or worse than the white one considering the new natural order "combo" because it seems like white does a better job of keeping them off the board with counter top and farmers than red does as farmers gets the goyf before they play natural order and counter balance makes sure goose doesnt land to be food.

[Atog]

What do we bring against enchantress and angelstax? PoP? Have you guys tested Divert? I'm going to test that weekend, just wondering that to cut from side.. -1x pyroblast, -1x pyroclasm and -1x hydroblast? Just expecting many EvaGreens and MBS so it would make cut against them :)

[spirit of the wretch]

The meta slots were filled with F/I (which was ok) and Snakeform (which was aweful)

[MULocke]

The meta slots were filled with F/I (which was ok) and Snakeform (which was aweful)

Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

[sauce]

Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

i replaced my submerges with relics and i think they are more relevant across the board

[undone]

Ok, testing has shown that submerge is the nuts (at least vs Team America), but disrupt has been very weak. This is the board I have so far:

4 Submerge
2 Krosan Grip
4 REB
2 Pyroclasm

3 open slots

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with only 2 clasms/aggro slots, and it could use more artifact removal in the form of another grip or two or possibly some trygon predators. Is boarding in Commandeers and a Progenitus too cute? Right now, the slots are the 3rd grip and 2 threads (do I need these with submerge?).

I like the board but +1 clasm seems important. Also commandeers seem awsome in the mirror when played carefuly getting CBs tops and natural orders (Even with no progen) is a 3/4 for 1 depending on how you look at it

-1 natural order
-1 Green man
-1 proge
+1 goyf for you

You actualy net a card in this exchange but to be honest commandeer seems REALLY greedy, if your terribly afrade of progenist just play reins of power. Its really funny that a 2UU Deal 10 to you burn spell exists but it does infact exist. I dont think that the 10/10 will make a huge impact but if it does reins of power seems like an awsome answer. I bolt you at EOT putting you at 9/10 swing with your own prog win.

Its also great against dreadnaught and stalker.

<---- Knows his crappy tempest cards.

[MULocke]

i replaced my submerges with relics and i think they are more relevant across the board

I tested relics too, but they had nowhere the impact that submerge did. The problem (speaking mostly towards the mirror and TA) is that it hurts you, too and it's really hard to keep their creatures small and off the table while keeping your own big. Sumberge has a definite and game-swinging impact on the board, and they're free. I can see them helping against loam as well, but submerge is really solid there, too. The only place where relic is better is against ichorid, which a few slots don't really help enough to swing the match in your favor.

@undone: commandeer seems great if it works, but really greedy. The real problem is that I need to hold onto my blue spells while staying in the game. Is it useful anywhere else? What do we think about threads for the goyf war and dreadstill?

[undone]

@undone: commandeer seems great if it works, but really greedy. The real problem is that I need to hold onto my blue spells while staying in the game. Is it useful anywhere else? What do we think about threads for the goyf war and dreadstill?

Commandeer is infact very greedy. Thats the point. If you want it the next best targets to my knowlage are counter, top, FoF, Intution, and anything that grants CA, but they are SO greedy I wouldnt advise it.

Threads is a great way to win the war but with the mass of annoying prog and dreadstill sucks ;) but seriously seems like due to our large burn suite we should just play reins of power it also solves you hidiously bad aggro loam matchup just dont spend the waste lands on wasteing.

Im not saying its a great answer but if your concerned about just large men it is infact one of the best answers.

Threads seems like the best overall answer followed by sower/control magic (Sower seems worse unless they have predator/grip)

[MULocke]

Commandeer is infact very greedy. Thats the point. If you want it the next best targets to my knowlage are counter, top, FoF, Intution, and anything that grants CA, but they are SO greedy I wouldnt advise it.

Threads is a great way to win the war but with the mass of annoying prog and dreadstill sucks ;) but seriously seems like due to our large burn suite we should just play reins of power it also solves you hidiously bad aggro loam matchup just dont spend the waste lands on wasteing.

Im not saying its a great answer but if your concerned about just large men it is infact one of the best answers.

Threads seems like the best overall answer followed by sower/control magic (Sower seems worse unless they have predator/grip)

I'm not really sure I'm happy with four-mana answers with only 14 real lands, and something really narrow like commandeer seems weak as well. That's why I'm proposing threads right now. My other thought with threads is that I can probably get away with two pyroclasms that way (maybe?). Another option is predators to shore up the dreadstill and stax matchups.

[Shugyosha]

Predator is too slow and fragile in this deck. It always sucked for me. Ancient Grudge is the Artifact hate to go if you are looking for something that complements Grip. It's an extremely hard hitting card against Dreadstill, Affinity and Landstill.

[MULocke]

Predator is too slow and fragile in this deck. It always sucked for me. Ancient Grudge is the Artifact hate to go if you are looking for something that complements Grip. It's an extremely hard hitting card against Dreadstill, Affinity and Landstill.

The problem with grudge is that it doesn't hit counterbalance, deed, or humility. I guess I could have one or two for stax, but predator seems beter for that.

[undone]

The problem with grudge is that it doesn't hit counterbalance, deed, or humility. I guess I could have one or two for stax, but predator seems beter for that.

I hate grudge if you dont expect 1X10^100 affinity decks

More grips is fine infact with the above SB I would make my board

2 Threads
2 Clasm
3 Grip
2 REB
2 pyroblast
4 submerge (or should it be 3 and a 3rd clasm)

[johanessen]

what about changing mongeese for lavamancers?