Well, there is another point to be made about Inkfantom. In many senarios, when I know my opponent plays blue and lots of Counterspells/Dazes, is that I usually holds on to my Lord of Atlantis for as long as I can without losing tempo. I rarly playes it turn 2 for UU because I risk running into Daze. I try to bombdrop Lord as often as I can if I don't have a vial (off course, this is not an absolute law, I play differnt from time to time depending on my hand, game state and what the opponent could be playing. However, slowrolling LoA has won me lots of games). The complete different is true for Inkfanthom since I want to play him asap. While I don't count LoA as a absolute turn 2 drop, I do count Inkfanthom as such and I don't like keeping UU for him. That's the reason why I don't want to play him. And off course, he can't block and is weak as hell.
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
This is your I-have-a -dream scenario ;). In that Kira is very good. Usually the real games are different . First you do not always have that army with 3 creatures (two of them lords) in play because some already might have been burned by then (I am not talking about a typical BURN.dec here, that is almost not relevant in my meta). That is what happens against GoyfSligh regularly. You (and I) just have 2 Kira main so the trick you describe is pretty rare to occur, plus you have to have a Vial at 3 (which is pretty often though) to trade favorable and use it as a combat trick. Last but not least Kira can be dealt with compared to Crystaline Sliver more easily. Especially Goyfsligh can target Kira with a Lavamancer or a Goblin and then burn it if it needs to.Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Now I am not saying that she is bad I am just saying that she does not improve the Aggro matchups as it might seem on paper. In addition I noticed that she improves the control matchups as well which came as a surprise first but then it is quite obvious when you think about it. Of course it is good that Kira seems to help overall and I agree that some control matchups are not a walk in the park but blue based control should be the "good" matchups of Merfolk due to the Islandwalk and mana denial strategy so why pack extra cards for it? If Kira does not enhance the bad matchups as intended then what is her job? Improve the better ones? Sure she does the trick sometimes but this is not good enough imho.
Unfortunately there is no better U choice I have to admit and drawing the same conclusion as in my last posts regarding aggro is try playing Dreadnought. Anyway the Kira discussion is also interesting for a deck incl. Dreadnought because it protects them as well and it has been a SB tech for Dreadstill for quite long ;)
I don't get what your saying. This was a situation where Kira helps, but you know another one is when they've burned all of your creatures to death and you play her. From that moment on every creature you play is protected. How is that not good now?
I found Echoing Truth (or, rather, a bounce effect) to be very good. 2 seems like the right number of bounce spells, since I hardly ever wanted one before turn five or so. After that, it was never bad. It can bounce a big guy that you can't deal with, "lock" pieces (I bounced Two Ghost Quarters FTW in testing), their last blocker, or act as a pseudo-counterspell against spot removal. Right now, I am happy with the spot in the MD. Siding in bounce spells seems terrbily awkward, and two of these MD are almost always relevant.*I'm interested to hear more about how running Echoing Truth in the main is going for you. What exactly did you cut for it? It seems like between 13 Island, 2 Thrasher, 3 Daze, 2 Relic, and 2 Echoing Truth, you've managed to find space for nearly all the contested cards that folks like in this deck, just cutting down -1 on the maximum number that folks run for each of these slots... Were there any other cuts to accommodate these cards? Have you been finding them consistently enough for your tastes? For example, two Thrashers is fine, but have you had any bad luck so far not finding Echoing Truth or Relic when you need them?
18, plus 3 Mutavaults. You could be correct on this, as I test more I will let you know. I have considered playing a fourth Mutavault. There were a few times during testing when I needed a threat, but usually I was not actively dieing, attacking with Mutavaults, or a Standstill refilled me with gas.*How many creatures do you run main-deck? From doing a little deduction, it seems like you run 18 (the core 16, plus two Thrashers, since you don't run Kira). In my opinion, 18 isn't quite enough, even with Mutavault. We run 8 lord-creatures, it's in our best interest to maximize their effect. I'd look for a way to go up to at least 20. Suggestions include Kira, extra Thrasher[...]
If I am cutting Relic from the MD, it will be ONLY because something else is better, not because Relic is bad in this format. I am convinced otherwise.I think you should test against a couple decks that don't use their graveyard as a resource before you make the call on putting Relic SB or main-deck.
As I said, I will be testing two bounce spells, two Jitte, two Kira, or my original configuration of 3 Thrashers, 3 Relic in my last two slots.*Kira gets a lot of debate around here, both pro's and con's. Personally, I'm testing two Jitte in the main in her slot, and I've found it to be a good amount.
I am playing 13 Islands (20) because you almost have to have a blue source to keep your starting hand (You can keep a Wasteland, Mutavault, Vial opener against non-blue, probably). I realize that 12 can get there, but since I will be playing the deck at a GP, which will theoretically be 10+ rounds if I do well, I want a more consistent mana-base. As for getting flooded more, I have ONE more land than you. That much more flooded. I mean, the difference here is small, but I think important. Simply put, on the play, about2/3 of 13 Island hands will have an Island. With 12 Islands, it is a few percent under 2/3, if my math is correct.*Also, with 13 Islands, are you running twenty lands?? Have you ever gotten mana-flooded yet? Because I run nineteen, and I've been both flooded and screwed so far in my testing, and it hurts both ways... I'm having a hard time deciding what our ideal number of lands is...
Because it does not matter anymore cause your opponent usually attacks as well as burns your creatures so you are probably at the short end of things. You are facing 2-3 creatures that are at least 2/3 (Kird Ape) or 3/3 (Nacatl) so you need at least 2 Lords. The games I had against Aggro usually turned out in a way that if Kira hit the board it just was too late to matter anymore. The questions it boils down to is: Did Kira improve your matchups against Aggro? And did it improve your matchups against Aggro to a reasonable amount? Could you evaluate the amount in a percentage value per matchup? From my testing against GoyfSligh I would say that out of 10 matches Kira mattered in only one of them, so the improvement here is quite small. I have also tested against Boros/Zoo to the same result. I did not test EvaGreen, Burn, Sligh whatsoever.
Here's a more fuzzy question or two.
Why is this deck getting so much attention as of late? I have always thought it was good, but has it become the ultimate metagame deck, since it seems that 75% of the DTB have shifted to some sort of blue x-control? Or is it because everyone who wants to play in the GP but doesn't play Legacy otherwise has this deck laying around from Standard?
My guess is that it is a little bit of both. However, if it is the ultimate metagame deck then hasn't the secret been mostly let out of the bag?
To a point, but there's a big difference between people that read the source and people that will be at the GP. It will still be a good choice for a largely unknown field.
Possibly... but do you really think there will be a shortage of islands at GPC? How about hate? I've searched as hard as anyone to see what we really have to be afraid of. Moat, Jitte, Propaganda/Ghostly Prison, Pyroclasm, Deeds, EE. That's all I've come up with that are marginally useable (unless you count similar things like Firespout etc). The problem with hating on Merfolk is that all the cards that are used to hate on it are already being used in full force. Sure you can pack an extra Propaganda in your sideboard against us, but that doesn't even increase your win percentage by that much.
I dunno, it's not like throwing in a basic land is going to stop Merfolk like it did Dragon Stompy. Call it a metagame deck, but until there aren't 90% island decks being played it's here to stay.
@Chronmaster: Could you PM me your list? It sounds similar to mine, except a few changes. Also, I think you mean Ghostly Prision, Ghost Quarter is a land and unbouncable with ETruth ;)
@Rushing River: Somebody namned that card before, I tried it out for a few months ago but found that E Truth was probebly better, not that Rushing wasn't bad, it was just that you nearly always wanted to kick it and at least I run very few lands...
"Think of all we could learn from it! It's the chance of a lifetime! You must let me have it! It's a magnificent specimen!"
Scandinavian Master Legacy 2010
World champion 93/94 2013
@Jazzy, I don't quite understand it myself. I feel that the deck has such a hard time if your early disruption fails. In all honesty, the feeling amongst my close friends who face my decks pretty much constantly is that Merfolk isn't even my best deck, much less deserving of this level of attention.
@Forbiddian: Yes, yes. I understand the math. Look at it this way:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wakethrasher
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Standstill
2 Wipe Away
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Aether Vial
13 Islands
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
There. I pasted my OP list. Now ask yourself for each card, does the deck improve or get worse if you cut one? I did.
-1 Cursecatcher: worse
-1 Silvergill Adept: worse
-1 Lord of Atlantis: worse
-1 Merrow Reejerey: worse
-1 Wakethrasher: worse - honestly, this should be 4 imo anyway
-1 Force of Will: worse
-1 Daze: worse
-1 Stifle: worse
-1 Standstill: worse
-1 Wipe Away: worse
-1 Relic of Progenitus: worse
-1 Aether Vial: worse
-1 Islands: worse
-1 Wasteland: worse
-1 Mutavault: worse
The place where pure mathematics fails is right here. It is a judgment call whether the extra card is a bigger sin than removing something that should be at a particular level of frequency. Is 4/61 FoW as good as I can have? No. 4/60 is. But it is, in my view less of a disaster than the 3/60 (or 2/60, 1/60, or 12/60) that you get from removing a card from the list. Each card fills its role. In a sense I highly suspect that I will not be able to change the opinions of people relying upon math as the sole basis here. I say this because I work for a company that is owned and operated by engineers, and teaches mathematics to gifted children. I am employed by this company largely to provoke discussion as a foil to the "engineers' train of thought". So you could say that I am familiar with what it is like to try to convince people who see black and white there is more than just an number at work in a complex system involving.
PI is fond of saying that I am promoting an unoptimized list. I went with the 61 card list with the same idea, but now I am not so sure. I still have not seen an optimized list, and that's the problem. What I am sure of is that cutting Daze is pretty foolish since this deck needs ownership of the first couple of turns to win. Just because others have done so does not make it the right call.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Some of those are debateable, not really "clear-cut." For instance, -1 Daze, -1 Island are certainly contestable, it has not really been proven without a doubt, that those should be in the numbers you listed. Or, for instance, can you say that -2 Wipe Away, +1 Wake Thrasher isn't better? Saying that subtracting one card of any of those would imply that all of those cards are correct; who knows, you might have the perfect MD.
That being said, your list is perfectly reasonable, and I don't think that running 61 cards is nuts, I just prefer 60. Our time would be better spent figuring out the last two slots.
The last five pages of this thread is
a. Should a splash be run?
b. Is 61 cards correct?
c. What are the last 2 slots of this deck?
A isn't important or relevant, B is quite literally the argument between 3 and 4 Dazes (pick one; you can argue the math all day, but those who have presented 61 cards have four Daze, and those who want 60 have three); I think C is where we should concentrate.
Why should I run Wipe Away, Jitte, or Kira over my Echoing Truths?
Hi. Sorry about my english at firts, i'm pretty bad at it. We got legacy tournament coming up in this saturday (24 player coming). So i choose merfolks to go this time. List is pretty common
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wakethrasher
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
4 Standstill
2 Echoing Truth
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Aether Vial
13 Islands
3 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
Sideboard is troubling me so if u got some good opinions about it i'm very pleased.
Scouted meta a litlle bit and decks i discover at this moment are: 3 x ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, It's the Fear, T.E.S, 2 x dreadstill (ugw & ugb)2 x enchantress, mono black suicide, eva green, goblins, angel stax, agro loam, deadguy ale, Belcher and ichorid
+ 6 random
Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
First of all, let me just say I wish I was lucky enough to know what like 85% of the decks that were going to be at a tournament would be before I got there...
Your main-deck looks fine, but I'd try to find space for the fourth Wasteland, because your mana denial/disruption package is looking sort of flimsy with 3 Stifle, 3 Waste, 3 Daze.
There's a good discussion of sideboards in the OP (on the first page)... I'm by no means an expert, but here are some cards that we've deemed generally good for sideboard consideration:
-Pithing Needle- stops Deed & Explosives, has a myriad of other uses. Recommended.
-Back to Basics- compliments our mana-screw plan, hits a lot of the most prevalent decks in the format, the only drawback being it neuters our Mutavaults. Still... Recommended.
-Relic of Progenitus- you have it main-deck, so I'll spare you the explanation of what it does. You should be fine with three main, I wouldn't bother with the fourth copy necessarily. Recommended, either in sideboard, main-deck, or some combination thereof.
-Divert- extra protection against spot removal, discard, burn, etc. Seems to either do spectacular things or not much of anything, depending on who you ask. I still don't have my mind made up about this one, so I'd recommend testing it and making your own decision. Matter of personal preference.
-Chill/Hydroblast/Blue Elemental Blast- very narrow, but these help with problematic match-ups for us. Merfolk-deck fears most Red decks, so some folks find room for these. Matter of personal preference.
-Kira, Great Glass Spinner- I'm starting to come to the opinion I like her better in the sideboard, since she doesn't seem to help all that much against some of our most difficult match-ups. She's good against some decks we suffer against, like The Rock, but I've found her to be somewhat counter-intuitively not all that useful in my main-deck thus far. People seem to be finding she does best against Control decks, being a little too slow to affect our Aggro match-ups by that much. But I would try to find room for her in the sideboard, in my case. Matter of personal preference...?
-Umezawa's Jitte- A lot of folks have written this one off a while ago, since they consider it a four-drop and thus too expensive, mainly. Also, it has dis-synergy with Kira. I've been trying two main-deck (because I'm trying the deck without Kira for a while) but I don't necessarily endorse it just yet. This is a powerful card to consider though. Basically, all three of the triggered abilities it provides are highly relevant to us, because our creatures tend to be relatively small, we have no creature-kill spells, and we have no way to gain life. However, it is pretty damn slow to get online, and the only time you'll want to drop it without being able to equip same turn is if you literally have nothing better in your hand to play. But I find so far that I almost always have something else to play until Jitte comes online if I draw it early, and if I draw it later in the game I'm always happy to see it. Also has the nice side effect of destroying opposing Jittes. Matter of personal preference.
-Propaganda- pretty obvious, relatively narrow, but like Wolverine used to say "He's the best there is at what he does." Good for match-ups where we have to play the control deck, which isn't necessarily the role we're best-suited for. Pretty good insurance, however I find it's kind of awkward to try to fit in more than two in the sideboard. Matter of personal preference, but I would recommend it.
-Bounce spells (E-truth, Rushing River, Wipe Away)- Someone made this point recently, and I agree, it's pretty damn awkward to try to run your whole suite of bounce spells in the sideboard. I think two main-deck like you have might be the right way to go... (But I kinda like Jitte in the MD so far...) Anyways, somewhere in there, your deck should definitely contain a few bounce spells, although I'm not really sure the right number to recommend, and the right split between sideboard and main. Recommended to have in there somewhere between sideboard and main.
Welcome to the thread, and enjoy the Merfolks. However......... Ugh. That took some time, I hope it's useful. If anyone else ever asks, I'm just gonna copy/paste this shit along with a link to the OP...
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
It's the Fear, enchantress and mono black suicide are mine decks. And i borrowed cards to eva green and agro loam. And i made test games against T.E.S and ugw dreadstillrest i just scouted
There gonna be lots of goyfs so i stuffed relics in md. Helps with agro loam and with decks that play tombstalker(or i hope so)
i think i'm gonna try something like this
3 x b2b
2 x echoing truth
1 x Wipe Away
3 x pithing needle
2 x Divert (got only 2)
4 or 2/2 x Jitte/BEB/Propaganda
Thank you
Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
May I see the testing results where you test the 61 version and each of those 60 card variants?
I provided evidence for why 61 cards is worse and you just said, "NO! 60 cards is worse!" If that assertion were true, then you'd be correct. Too bad it's just an assertion, unsupported by evidence.
Until you get/present some real evidence, God told me that 60 cards is better. So there, now I have both evidence and the complete lack of evidence that you seem to like so much.
Or I could say this:
-1 Cursecatcher: better
-1 Silvergill Adept: better
-1 Lord of Atlantis: better
-1 Merrow Reejerey: better
-1 Wakethrasher: better
-1 Force of Will: better
-1 Daze: better
-1 Stifle: better
-1 Standstill: better
-1 Wipe Away: better
-1 Relic of Progenitus: better
-1 Aether Vial: better
-1 Islands: better
-1 Wasteland: better
-1 Mutavault: better
But Finn, what you aren't understanding is not every single card in your deck is as strong as every other card in your deck. One of those slots is the weakest slot, and cutting it will make the other cards in the deck, the stronger cards in the deck, even stronger.
You say you understand the math, no offense, but you clearly don't.
I wonder how it feels to be bored.
-Jhoira, artificer
This is the list I've been playing around with recently. I'm planning to run Fish at GP Chicago, so if anyone could help me out it would be greatly appreciated.
// Land
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
12 Island
// Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
3 Grimoire Thief
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
// Spells
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Wipe Away
// Artifacts
4 Æther Vial
// sideboard
4 Divert
3 Propaganda
3 Pithing Needle
3 Chill
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Wake Thrashers and Wipe Away are open slots essentially.
Other ideas were:
Echoing Truth - ANT for goblin Tokens and Dredge tokens.
Umezawa's Jitte - Helps in the Mirror and vs Goblins
Sword of Fire and Ice - CA and Kills Goblins
More Relic - Dredge, Aggro Loam, and Goyf hate
Cold Eye Selkie - Beats, built in Islandwalk, CA
My largest problem seems to be goblins and Goyf Sligh, but Faerie Stompy is also difficult for me. Ideas?
Smog, my dear man. I am simply saying that it is not even about the math. Truly you are correct. One card is the weakest. And I have said time and again that I am certain that 61 is ultimately not the strongest possible option. I have implored people to help find a way out. But what I continue to get are people who prefer to point again and again at the safe argument of "You are wrong. 61 can not be the way." Oh and this newest one that I quite like "Finn, show me the money".
It is sad, really, that I have tried over and over to bend the efforts of others in here to help find the solution. And what I get instead are fingers pointed at me. No bother. On to the point then. Forbiddian, I salute you sir, for you have outed me. Indeed I can not prove beyond doubt that any one card is the wrong choice as you well know. Just as you can not prove beyond doubt that any one card is the right choice. And that marvelous fact that you so expertly drive home is precisely my point. So in that state, since every card appears to be quite right...not out of emotion, but the result of testing...
...at 61 I will remain, though the last belt loop is for 60.
Until that is, someone (perhaps me) (perhaps you) (perhaps Mr. Magoo) comes up with a sensible solution. Think of 61 as my "hands up in the air" if you will. It is a holding pattern until something gives way and a breath of fresh air wafts in. I await constructive feedback, fellas. For the room is quite musty with the smell of wasted breath at the moment.
PS. Daze is still the wrong choice.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Sry to but in this conversation. I thinked that duke demon said to me that i have to make room for 4th waste. I come to solution to take 1 vial out. I played meathooks before vith 3 vial and it worked pretty vell so maybe with merfolks too....
Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
I can respect that concession Finn.
If it were /ME/, I would take out a wasteland or a daze. If you disagree, that's fine, but those would be my choices.
I wonder how it feels to be bored.
-Jhoira, artificer
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