[Deck] Merfolk

[kilukru]

Vial is a mandatory 4, not only does it allow you to dodge counter, it help you cast you men while wastelanding, dazing etc... but the major point for 4 vial in this deck is , turn 1 vial turn 2 standstill.

Vial+standstill is just nut's

edit : also vialing adept is pretty good

[DeeJus]

Why does Grimoire Thief see no play? In testing he has been rather remarkable for me as a maindeck answer to Combo and even randomly countering Tarmogoyfs etc.

[Mordel]

I have seen those a few times now and they were completely trivial to me.

[Forbiddian]

Smog, my dear man. I am simply saying that it is not even about the math. Truly you are correct. One card is the weakest. And I have said time and again that I am certain that 61 is ultimately not the strongest possible option. I have implored people to help find a way out. But what I continue to get are people who prefer to point again and again at the safe argument of "You are wrong. 61 can not be the way." Oh and this newest one that I quite like "Finn, show me the money".

It is sad, really, that I have tried over and over to bend the efforts of others in here to help find the solution. And what I get instead are fingers pointed at me. No bother. On to the point then. Forbiddian, I salute you sir, for you have outed me. Indeed I can not prove beyond doubt that any one card is the wrong choice as you well know. Just as you can not prove beyond doubt that any one card is the right choice. And that marvelous fact that you so expertly drive home is precisely my point. So in that state, since every card appears to be quite right...not out of emotion, but the result of testing...

...at 61 I will remain, though the last belt loop is for 60.

Until that is, someone (perhaps me) (perhaps you) (perhaps Mr. Magoo) comes up with a sensible solution. Think of 61 as my "hands up in the air" if you will. It is a holding pattern until something gives way and a breath of fresh air wafts in. I await constructive feedback, fellas. For the room is quite musty with the smell of wasted breath at the moment.

PS. Daze is still the wrong choice.

I know you think you somehow have a position of rationality.

You don't. You don't have any evidence. Nobody agrees with you. Cut a card from the primer (anything below average will do, if you've read my posts it should be obvious).

It's an embarrassment to everyone that you somehow think that 61 cards is a solution or is even a stopping place. If you were just some average guy in this thread, I'd let you wallow in your own ignorance, but you control the primer. Please take some responsibility.

This has gone on long enough. You've already admitted that 60 cards is better, so just cut something now and we can get back to discussing it instead of having to push back these childish rebellions. You're clearly stifling conversation with your conversation-stopper, "Nothing you say matters, because I'll just run everything."

Other people are working hard on this, try to step up to the plate.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Sry to but in this conversation. I thinked that duke demon said to me that i have to make room for 4th waste. I come to solution to take 1 vial out. I played meathooks before vith 3 vial and it worked pretty vell so maybe with merfolks too....

I'd bump one of your Relics to the sideboard long before I ever cut a vial. Seriously, don't... DO NOT cut Vial down to three. You're shooting yourself in the foot, because although you'd rather not see two Vials over the course of the average game, you really really want to see one in your opening hand, much more than you don't want to see two in the same game...

Also, @DeeJus: Grimoire Thief??? WTF man? He's basically worse than Rootwater Thief, who is himself basically worse than bad. If you want more Merfolk, try more Thrasher, try Tidal Warrior, hell, even try Sygg River Cutthroat. Or try Relic, bounce, hell, even Jitte... But hey, don't listen to me if you don't want to. It's just that I doubt I'll make the GP myself, and it saddens me to think of folks playing Grimoire Thief there.

[elof]

Actually, I have to agree with Forbiddian, Phoenix and the others. Finn, cut either an Island or a Daze from the OP and explain it with something like: "still trying to fit in the 4th Daze... testing will let me know".


The main problem with Grimoire Thief is that he's slow and he also cost UU. If you except heavy combo, play it, otherwise, there are better cards out there.

Also, vial IS 4 off, no less, not now, not ever. [However, I did SB out one against goblin on the draw for Needles, planing on locking out there's. But I would never cut them all.]

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

*So... can we talk more about Jitte? I've been finding it pretty cool so far, running it in the two main-deck slots I used to have Kira in... Noticed Finn added it back to his OP list as well, in his sideboard... I've heard the arguments against (not that they don't bear repeating), and I still need to test it more (or else I wouldn't ask...) but I think it really helps to shore up some of this deck's possible weaknesses: lack of removal, lack of lifegain, and smaller creatures compared to some other decks (pretty much in that order in terms of significance if you ask me too)

Has anyone gotten much testing done with Jitte?

*Also: I'm beginning to accept that I'm probably better off putting Jitte in my sideboard and running bounce main... Which, if I were to add two copies of a bounce spell main-deck, I think I'd like to go with Rushing River because it's potentially the most powerful... But does it seem not as good as Echoing Truth or Wipe Away for the main-deck?

EDIT: @Finn: while I respect that it's your prerogative, I think posting a 61 card list may be a little misleading to folks just now picking up the deck (although that's on their lack of preparation, not ours, I know).

It just seems to me, if I'm remembering your list correctly, that what you're stuck on is basically the debate between Island number 13 and Wasteland number 4. I'd try testing some match-ups excluding one of these cards and see if you're comfortable with how the mana works... I know that running 12 Islands is kind of 'living on the edge', but if you're adding the sixty-first card to get up to 13, you're really not helping yourself out any, mathematically speaking. And not to be a rude motherfucker, but if you just flat-out don't believe in statistics, you're kind of missing a fundamental understanding of games and how they work. I'm not saying the universe and everything in it is governed by math, but math is one of the most cohesive systems available to interpret and predict how things work, and Magic is essentially a game of numbers in the first place.

[Smog]

I would run a singleton of both Wipe Away and Rushing River ala Canadian Thresh

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I would run a singleton of both Wipe Away and Rushing River ala Canadian Thresh

That's kinda interesting... But I'd feel a lot more consistent with two of one card in the main, two of the other in the sideboard. Is there a logical argument for running two mise-wells that do similar things? It just seems kinda... random.

[Smog]

Because at their base level they do the same thing for the same amount of mana but both also do something extra. One is uncounterable and the other you can bounce something additional for a negligible cost. I used to always want to play one or the other, and the tournament where I said "this is the last time I run one of each", I bounced a nought with wipe away and he showed me 2 forces and a daze before scooping.

Typically I think River is stronger but when that split second matters, it's usually game breaking.

I decided one of each was fine and dandy.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Because at their base level they do the same thing for the same amount of mana but both also do something extra. One is uncounterable and the other you can bounce something additional for a negligible cost. I used to always want to play one or the other, and the tournament where I said "this is the last time I run one of each", I bounced a nought with wipe away and he showed me 2 forces and a daze before scooping.

Typically I think River is stronger but when that split second matters, it's usually game breaking.

I decided one of each was fine and dandy.

So what would you say would be the optimal configuration if I was to use the 1/1 split in this deck? Like one of each main-deck and then another two of each in the sideboard maybe?? Using four sideboard slots on bounce seems kind of unwise...

[Smog]

I'll just post my list

------

// Lands
3 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [TE] Wasteland
12 [5E] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher

// Spells
3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte


// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Honestly, I don't think you need to devote that many slots to bounce. I think those two MD are plenty but I could see boarding maybe one more of each if that made you more comfortable.

I'll just post my list

------

// Lands
3 [MOR] Mutavault
4 [TE] Wasteland
13 [5E] Island (3)

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Cursecatcher
2 [EVE] Wake Thrasher
4 [LRW] Merrow Reejerey
4 [LRW] Silvergill Adept
4 [TSB] Lord of Atlantis

// Spells
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
1 [PS] Rushing River
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [SC] Stifle
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will



// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 2 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 [OD] Divert
SB: 2 [BOK] Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

That looks pretty solid. 18 creatures is a little low though... I have to say, that was one thing I liked about Kira while I was running her in the main... Even when she's just a flying Grizzly Bears, she's a warm body on the board at least. (I sincerely wish WOTC would print just one more bomb-ass Merfolk to use in this deck... *le sigh*)

[Smog]

I agree that I'd like to up the creature count a bit but nothing in the current game is worth the slots of the cards I would have to take out for it. I have a feeling that Kira will be in more games than not. But I believe in a blind meta-game, such as the grand prix, the two bounce are better vested MD slots.

And there's always mutavault. ;)

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I agree that I'd like to up the creature count a bit but nothing in the current game is worth the slots of the cards I would have to take out for it. I have a feeling that Kira will be in more games than not. But I believe in a blind meta-game, such as the grand prix, the two bounce are better vested MD slots.

And there's always mutavault. ;)

Yeah, yeah, Mutavault... I wish Sygg had tested to be worth a shit though... Or Tidal Warrior, perhaps if he had the same ability and a slightly bigger body... I agree though, I've been over all the options, and there's nothing much worth using. If I wanted creatures #19-20, I'd actually probably go with Shapesharer. But he has a couple fairly obvious problems (being a mana-hungry 1/1 in a deck that wants bigger creatures, and where mana is relatively tight to begin with...) I like the possibility of having a chump-blocker-extraordinaire in this deck though...

EDIT: Or, more realistically, I'd consider Wake Thrasher number three, and maybe, just maybe the fourth as well... He is pretty burly after all, except you'd obviously side a few out if they were packing burn spells.

[Smog]

I think tidal warrior and selkie are the only two that come even close to being candidates (other than MD'ing Kira) but as has been discussed, just aren't worth the spots.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I think tidal warrior and selkie are the only two that come even close to being candidates (other than MD'ing Kira) but as has been discussed, just aren't worth the spots.

I don't use Tidal Warrior myself, but I wouldn't completely dismiss him, he's cropped up in a few first-place lists on deckcheck over the last couple months... On the other hand, I wouldn't touch Selkie with a ten-foot pole. The reason we run Wake Thrasher (the only 1/1 for three mana we use) is because he's a beast if he gets to attack, not because he might maybe draw a card if we attack with him. Let's face it, Selkie is really only good with at least one lord in play, so you can present the threat of drawing multiple cards if she connects. For one thing, this is relatively unlikely to happen if your opponent has any sort of a say about it. And for another thing, if you have LoA plus her, her islandwalk is useless and redundant anyways.

The only 1/1's we use in this deck are either secretly Hulk-sized monstrosities like Thrasher, or incredibly cheap and versatile like Cursecatcher. This is why Tidal Warrior could maybe fit the criteria: he's cheap and potentially disruptive/LoA enabling (read: fairly versatile). Conversely, this is why Selkie is complete garbage: she's expensive, not disruptive, and very situational. And for a three-drop, she deals next to no damage whatsoever, which is after all, how our deck goes about achieving a game win.

...Anyways, this is why I've been happy so far with my third Wake Thrasher, until I inevitably decide to move Relic back to the main after seeing a match-up it would have won...

EDIT: The more I think about it though, the more I think I may give Tidal Warrior a try after all if I can find the space... For a deck that's so geared towards keeping other decks from seeing their splash colors (Stifle/Wasteland), it seems like his ability would be pretty freaking useful for us. Granted, he's better if they're not playing Islands to begin with, but a lot of decks that feature Blue also splash other colors, so it seems to me that he retains his usefulness pretty well in most situations...

[elof]

I think canadian thres can run one of each Wipe/River because they also have 8 spells that search for them (Ponder/Brainstorm). We can't in the same sense decide which of the 2 we will draw. Therefore, I would recommend playing 2 of 1 rather than 1/1. But if running 1/1 seem to work for you then go for it.

Also, Smog, running both Kira and Jitte in SB, how does that work out for you? You ever feel like boarding in both?

[Phoenix Ignition]

Other people are working hard on this, try to step up to the plate.

Don't worry, primer got updated regardless of stubbornness.

My list currently runs -1 island +1 Relic just so you all know. Kira is great right now in almost every metagame, but if you are facing heavy stax types decks Echoing Truth is much better. GPC is going to see heavy heavy Dreadstill judging from price increases, so you might even want to run Wipe Away here, but honestly Echoing Truth is going to work better 90% of the time (since it's better against other decks and gives huge tempo with standstill).

[Smog]

Also, Smog, running both Kira and Jitte in SB, how does that work out for you? You ever feel like boarding in both?

I would board in both fairly often, yes. I would board both in burn, goyf sligh, and goblins just off the top of my head. Probably many more.

My list currently runs -1 island +1 Relic just so you all know.

Thinned the mana base? Really? Been working alright I take it?


edit: and as far as echoing truth vs other bounce, I might try it but the rushing river / wash away combo has been good to me. I can see the viability though.