[Deck] Belcher

[DeathwingZERO]

Beating Goblins with Belcher should be a given. That's not really a good measuring stick for any Belcher build.

On the play, they can kill you by turn 3. As far as I'm concerned, it's the epitome of what you want to race. If both are unhindered, and you aren't outpacing a mono-red list, you need to re-evaluate.

Much like you said, you should beat them. They are the fastest of aggro, you are combo. If you can't, work the list. If you can, start testing it against a real gauntlet you'd expect.

Typically, after determining it's got pretty much solid game against Goblins both pre and post board, I'll put it to the test against Thresh, Landstill, and any other decks I know should give it problems.

Combo decks are pretty much a coin toss, so I rarely play against storm and Ichorid. Usually whoever is first is going to have the upper hand, especially if there's disruption in either.

[kicks_422]

With a list that splashes black for more tutors, your aim should be Turn 1 or Turn 2 at the latest, especially up against an aggro deck without countermagic nor discard. Your Turn 1-2 wins should be much, much more frequent than the Turn 3 kills of Goblins anyway. Mulliganing is the most important skill that this deck utilizes, risky but that's the way the deck is constructed in the first place.

[bowvamp]

Hi everybody... I just want to address the issue about whether or not to splash black.
This issue goes on and on and on throughout the history of belcher but never seems to go unanswered.
The advantages as I see them:
RG=
8X useful spirit guides ESG doesn't only produce
less confusing opening hands
no color troubles
more consistent belcher umm... belches?
more sac-mana (to play with your lands like cantor and tinder wall)
BRG=
more tutors
more mana
access to Ad-Nauseum and other black card draw... is this all?

oh yeah, I still don't have any progress happening with my Sylvan Belcher list...

[Pulp_Fiction]

Because Sylvan Library has no place in Belcher. You want to add something that adds consistency in a RG build splash black and play Dark Ritual and Spoils of the Vault. Otherwise just run the awful Street Wraith and/or Serum Powder. This deck is a "DUUUR" combo deck in that it doesn't rely on topdecks and require complicated thought processes about which lands to fetch out, figuring out if you have enough mana to Chant and combo out, complicated stacking of the deck, etc., it simply looks at its opening hand and asks "can I win?" This deck should not be in topdeck mode. Ever. It should be losing big or winning big, no inbetween (aside from race situations with 8ish Warrens tokens or a failed Belcher attempt). Sylvan Library does absolutely nothing in the main and is hideous in your opening hand, it takes up space and adds nothing to the combo turn. Belcher doesn't need setup cards. You want setup play DDFT or TES.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'd have to agree with Pulp. You don't have the time or resources to use Library effectively, your turn two is the latest you want to go off. Any later, and you are opening up a can of worms on yourself. Everything in the format has a critical mass of turn 3, whether it be other combo decks, Thresh, etc playing out CounterTop or any control/aggro control having access to FoW, Daze, and another counter on the same turn, etc.

The deck's focus is to go off laughing at a FoW. This used to happen because of Welder, being able to get whatever you got countered back into play. Then it evolved into discard elements (mostly because StP was more common now), then people started maindecking Xantids. Personally, I toss in a couple of Duress (now would be Thoughtseize, all because StP is still common, and Xantid in my opinion is a turn too slow), and call it good. Aside from Spoils, you aren't taking damage anywhere in the first turn.

Also, having Manamorphose in the deck means you can still pack the 8 Spirit Guides, but I personally would only pack the red ones anyways. Having 8 deters from the storm count, which is necessary if you can't get to Belcher and have to go with EtW or Tendrils (another good reason for black). As far as the consistency of the Belch, Land Grant is obviously always going for Bayou first. Aside from that, hope you don't hit it on the way down.

Typically, as far as I've seen, BRG doesn't have mana inconsistencies. Cantor and Manamorphose can be cast off green or red, and Tinder Wall is taken out simply because it's unnecessary to force the deck to require green to get anywhere, as all green adds is Tinder Wall and Spirit Guide. There's really nothing else you need to worry about as far as mana fixing, unless you opt into the Tendrils kill in the SB, which requires 3BBR, as opposed to 4RR for EtW via Wish. Xantid from the SB (if you choose to play it) can even be cast off Chrome imprints of itself (or anything hybrid), or the land you fetch with Grant.

[badjuju]

lol people are still posting in this thread? As far as I know, the list is already pretty much optimized for both versions of the deck, RG and BRG. There's a few preference slots that you can toy around with, but otherwise there really isn't much room for experimenting. That's the result you get when you engineer a combo deck for optimum speed and ignore the rest. If a card doesn't directly help you speed out the combo asap, then it most likely doesn't have a place in the deck.

I think Belcher is a great place for a combo player to start in Legacy. However, if you seek to push your skill and use it to your advantage, Belcher has way too big of a random factor for any seasoned player. The frustration level will soon get the best of you (unless you're a really, really lucky guy lol).

[AcidFiend]

Firstly this is my first post on The Source - sweet forum! Anyways...

I've read this thread from start to finish, and in the last few pages there were a few comments about there being 'standard builds' (R/G & R/G/B), and some comments of card changes, though I didn't see many updated full decklists.

Based on comments by Pulp/DeathwingZERO I compiled the below list of what a R/B/g version minus ESG's might look like. If this was posted somewhere previously I apologise I missed it.

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

I've been testing it and it feels even more 'all-or-nothing' than the version I currently play (pure R/G). I feel I can Goldfish Turn 1/2 kills a lot more with access to Dark Ritual and Spoils. It also feels more robust in the sense of having discard there to bait out some Countermagic. However you occasionally die from tutors, though the way I figure it if you don't get the right cards you were destined to die anyways.

There is also a slight inconsistency on having both red and black sources to start casting your mana-producers, but I guess it can come down to mulliganing..

Keep this thread alive, I love this deck! While you can die from Spoils its really exciting to use - this list plays like an Extreme Sport!

[Ozymandias]

You should probably have something like 4 Manamorphose in there, and strip Duress/Cabal Ritual out. You'll never get threshold quickly enough to matter, and you pretty much pack it to Force anyway.

Also, Wish is probably better than Spoils, because it a) can fetch answers to unforseen problems, b) won't kill you, and c) requires only red to go off.

Thoughtseize might very well be better as Pyroblast, because it can add to the storm count, and requires only red.

[AcidFiend]

You should probably have something like 4 Manamorphose in there, and strip Duress/Cabal Ritual out. You'll never get threshold quickly enough to matter, and you pretty much pack it to Force anyway.

Theres been discussion about manamorphose and how it doesnt give you any extra mana, only adds to storm count. Duress stays. Cabal could probably be swapped out, but you're not expecting to have threshold, it just adds storm+1 mana tho. Its probably the weakest card tho.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I really don't play this deck anymore, I think in terms of combo this deck just can't reliably fight through hate cards like B/U/g ANT and TES can. IMOP those are pretty much the best combo decks in the format currently. First off, Burning Wish is spectacular in the deck. But it does have its hits and misses. Against heavy control decks I actually side out Burning Wish unless I know they are playing Chalice or Trinisphere.

A little more than a year ago Belcher was hot shit since it could reliably go off turns 1-2 everytime but just packed it in to certain hate cards and was far superior (IMOP) to TES or almost any other combo deck at the time. This is certainly not the case today. Turn 1 Trinisphere just ruins this deck in every way. Also, Belcher has problems with just 1 hate card but dealing with numerous is a serious problem. Orim's Chant is also a serious problem. This deck is not built for the long run. You don't build up a hand and test the opponent's defenses slowly and look for openings then strike (and unlike about a year ago, today you reliably win); but rather the deck just explodes in the first few turns before the opponent is able to do anything.

If you want to play combo today, look up TES and U/B/g ANT (without Chant + KGrip). If you really want to play Belcher this is my final list that I used to run. It is IMOP the optimal version of Spoils Belcher to run:

3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga
1x Bayou

Sideboard

1x Diminishing Returns
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Tombstalker

If you want me to talk you through card choices and SB strategies I can, I always liked Belcher since it is simple and effective at what it does. But this deck is really like not even playing magic, you just goldfish it with someone sitting in front of you. However, with the printing of Ad Nauseam I think it has really put a dampening on Belcher since most combo decks can reliably go off on turns 1-3 which used to be why people played Belcher over slower setup combo decks like Iggy Pop and Solidarity.

[AcidFiend]

If you want me to talk you through card choices and SB strategies I can

Hey Pulp, can you show us with the above decklist what SB choices you'd make against:
-Dreadstill
-Threshold
-Ichorid

That'd be sweet.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Never SB anything against Dredge. Belcher is simply faster than they are. Aim to go off as early as possible or if things look shitty just try to keep a hand with Burning Wish or Tinder Wall. Tinder Wall removes their Bridges when u sacrifice it during their turn! But this matchup should not be to bad. Try to win with Warrens tokens since they most likely will bring in Pithing Needle for Belcher.

I SB the exact same against every blue-based deck that plays counterspells! This is what I do:

-4 Burning Wish (only good with LED)
-4 Seething Song (this thing gets countered u are fucked)
-3 Tinder Wall

+3 Duress
+3 Thoughtseize
+4 Tombstalker
+1 Empty the Warrens

Belcher is a glass cannon deck and will not handle the long game. Most people prefer the Red Blast plan but it does nothing. If it were any good this deck would be tier 1! Turn 2-4 Tombstalker is just a house against most control decks! Since StP comes out he is a very big suprise! I choose to cut Burning Wish since you have to go all-in with LED or shit tons or rituals and basically lose if Burning Wish is countered. You can moderately storm with 4x EtW in the deck, go for Tombstalker, or Belch them out, all within the first 1-3 turns backed up by hand disruption!

Against decks that run just Chant effects go:
-4 Tinder Wall
-2 Seething Song

+3 Duress
+3 Thoughtseize

Play this deck with caution though, honestly, there really isn't any reason to play this over TES, if you can build Belcher you already have all the expensive cards for combo: LED, Mox, and Burning Wish. All you have to do is invest in Orim's Chant or just play Duress in its place (sub-optimal but if money is a big issue it works). Good to see interest in this deck again, but its time has pretty much come and gone :(

[Tacosnape]

Belcher needs an alternate kill besides Empty the Warrens, which in the days of Stifles and Engineered Explosives and Pyroclasms galore really doesn't cut it.

The other problem Belcher faces is that Ad Nauseam was printed. Which instead of saying ", win target game." says ", win target game." Granted, Belcher will randomly fail to kill, and Ad Nauseam sucks if they stall long enough to drop your life total low, but for the most part, Ad Nauseam dropped the converted mana cost of a one-card win by 2. All while allowing a more resilient and consistent shell.

[AcidFiend]

Hehe thanks guys. I get the consensus from players and see the results and know this decks time has come, but I just wanted my build/strat for it to be optimal regardless.

I hoard decks, I rarely rip them up. I'll probably go on to create ANT/Dredge next from scratch, but I'm leaving my Belcher intact. I can pull it out occasionally against casual chumps to show em how to win on turn 1 hehe.

[GGoober]

In what kind of meta would Belcher steal wins?

Does it do well in a meta of Counterbalance Thresh? I know it does terrible against Stompy/Stax with 3Sphere. But I would like some opinions on a meta of Counterbalance and discard. Is Discard ever a problem for the deck?

I'm assuming aggro should be a cakewalk. Can Belcher race ANT in terms of speed?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yes Belcher is faster than ANT. That means it has a higher turn 1 win % chance. However it is still a question of who wins the die roll.

ANT runs disruption in form of 4 dures + 4 chant and is a bit slower. I think the MU is 40/60 for Ant.


Counterbalance is no problem for Belcher cuz it is just to slow. But most deck that run Cbalance also run Fow and Daze wich are more threatening.

Discard could be annoying cuz you couldnt mull as aggresivly as against other decks.

@Tacosnape:
Yeah i agree with you. I think ANT is just the better deck.

[hwtcharger07]

here is the belcher list I am currently running

1L gnarbelcher

Lands: 1
1 taiga

Creatures: 12
4 elvish spirit guide
4 simian spirit guide
4 tinder wall

Spells: 31
4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 dark ritual
4 land grant
4 seething song
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
3 empty the warrens

artifacts: 16
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 goblin charbelcher

SB:
1x diminishing returns
1x empty the warrens
1x tendrils of agony
4x shattering spree
4x pyroblast
4x tombstalker

I think te maindeck here is pretty solid, manamorphose is needed, it is a must, it increases stormcount like nobodys buisness, fixes your mana, and draws you a card for free. Without manamorphose its near impossible to play dark ritual which speeds this deck up so much. I tied for first in a 20 man tournament with this last week (i IDed in the finals to GR vial gobs, we played out the games though i lost 2-1 from not drawing anything to help me go off). anyway this list is solid (minus the SB) and I will be taking it to 5k this weekend in philly. Mindbreak trap will probly ruin my day if i run into it, so i guess i will just have to keep my fingers crossed. anyway thoughs, comments, criticisms and suggestions would be very appreciated. Thanks.

[workingdude]

here is the belcher list I am currently running

1L gnarbelcher

Lands: 1
1 taiga

Creatures: 12
4 elvish spirit guide
4 simian spirit guide
4 tinder wall

Spells: 31
4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 dark ritual
4 land grant
4 seething song
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
3 empty the warrens

artifacts: 16
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 goblin charbelcher

SB:
1x diminishing returns
1x empty the warrens
1x tendrils of agony
4x shattering spree
4x pyroblast
4x tombstalker

I think te maindeck here is pretty solid, manamorphose is needed, it is a must, it increases stormcount like nobodys buisness, fixes your mana, and draws you a card for free. Without manamorphose its near impossible to play dark ritual which speeds this deck up so much. I tied for first in a 20 man tournament with this last week (i IDed in the finals to GR vial gobs, we played out the games though i lost 2-1 from not drawing anything to help me go off). anyway this list is solid (minus the SB) and I will be taking it to 5k this weekend in philly. Mindbreak trap will probly ruin my day if i run into it, so i guess i will just have to keep my fingers crossed. anyway thoughs, comments, criticisms and suggestions would be very appreciated. Thanks.

I'm assuming this is against a FOW-deficient meta?

The main other problem I have is that this deck even loses to a lot of decks that run any type of sweeper either main board or sideboard. 7 of your 11 win cons have a 2 turn clock after you cast it. Plenty of time for a sweeper.

I've started turning against this deck.

Also 12 and 13 win-con lists are a percentage or so more consistent of having either 1 or 2 win cons in the opening hand. It helps if you opponent is a duress player too.

[sco0ter]

You probably want some answers for Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage.

[yankeedave]

I run a Deathmark in the SB to wish for. But I usually mulligan until I have a win-con and 4 mana in my hand, then, if I go for the Belcher kill, I lay it on the table and let them sweat it until I get 3 mana. If I have the EtW, then I just let it ride.

Force is an issue, but I have made a few MD changes to the list above, namely, I have dropped black and am running 3 Land Grant, 3 Seething Song, 3 Goblin Welder and 3 Pyroblast. I find the Welders and the blasts help save your ass from time to time and you can do funky tricks with Welder.

One of my faves is lay a Welder with a Belcher in hand and see if it sticks. If he lands, the go for the LED, if that sticks, drop another artifact and then crack LED for 3 mana, discarding your hand. Weld Belcher out using the other artifact, and win.

If Welder gets countered, then play with the confidence they have one less counter in hand. Your blasts will help push this thru!

Dave