... which is something I seriously do not understand. Blood Moon hits Turn 2 in Legacy. Threshold never ever wants to fetch a Turn 1 Forest, especially on the draw (shuts down Daze and prevents Turn 2 Counterbalance). The basic Forest has very little impact on Blood Moon resiliency, yet completely distorts the mana base because it forces you to run Wooded Foothills or Windswept Heath, fetchlands that cannot grab Underground Sea. Overall, the basic Forest just has a bad impact on the mana base. It is even worse if you start running Plains, because if all your lands are Mountains except a Plains, you cannot win the game.Most Threshold builds run at least 1 basic Forest and 1 basic Plains (if white).
Furthermore, running good cards > Blood Moon.
Overall, the fear of Blood Moon is seriously overrated. You lose to a Turn 2 Blood Moon, fair enough, shit happens.
After seeing both finalists' lists running 4 Top I've considered cutting a Ponder/Brainstorm (in a build closer to Thresh) because of how much better the deck gets with it out (duh). On the flip side, when you activate Top and see one in your top 3 it's a disappointment every time. Seeing Ponder off a Top activation is usually good if not awesome as it is a blue card and can provide a shuffle effect. That was my reasoning for staying at 4 Ponder, 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top. And with 3 Trinket Mage, I wonder how critical that 4th Top is...Originally Posted by Anusien
The other question I have about the build is how does it deal with the hypothetical early Dreadnought/Lackey? Otherwise that list looks great (and has proven to be just that) and I plan on sleeving up something similar in the near future once I get my hands on some Trinket Magi. I like Probasco's list a lot better than Nassif's. It's unlike anything else in the format whereas Nassif's deck is much closer to many current Thresh lists, including my own.
I've just builded a my personal list of nlu.
Probasco's decklist inspired me.
I cut black cards for white cards.
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [ALA] Plains (3)
1 [B] Tundra
1 [ALA] Forest (1)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CST] Brainstorm
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
1 [10E] Pithing Needle
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [UL] Crop Rotation <-- good for ruins and wasta style, for ee at 4 too.
1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor <--- i cut 1 mage for white tutor vs vedalken
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [SHM] Firespout
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [OD] Extract <--- vs counterbalance and progenitus too.
I cut cb+sdt because I prefer to have mana open for my spells in eot. There's a little manipulation, but in my on-line test I haven't suffer this.
I play relic main because this card is very very strong vs ichorid, ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh and tombstalker in game one too.
If I'll play black than white, I think to play duress main and diabolic edict in my sb.
1st = No countertop?!?!?! You need this combo to survive.
2nd = 2 Trygon & 2 k. grip in MD?!?!
3rd = Tutor sux, put on the top of your library isn't good, put trinket bak, "put in your hand" effects are better. Because, this tutor is often a kind of solution, not a prevention act. So a 3cc spell isn't bad for this build and fits well for countertop.
4th = And about StP? I really don't have a defiitive opinion about it, may work or not, but Probasco have intended to "remove" creatures by taking control of them, IMHO.
5th = Academy ruins isn't a MUST draw card. Running 2 with 3 ponders, 4 brainstorms and 4 tops is all what you need to get your own cards.
Anybody tested o-ring instead of 2 schackles?
1° I see who I can survive w/out too. Obv cb+sdt help me versus aggro deck and burn in game 1
2° 2 trygon + 2 krip because in my metagame there're a lot of stax, dreadstill,faeries (bitterblossom) and dreadnought
3° tutor because play 3 trinket for 3 airtifacts who I play isnt't so good for me.
4° This deck must control opponent creatures, but I prefer a little control if I don't see sower or vedalken. But it's possible who I cut they.
5° Ruins is good if I've in my grave EE, because I can control the opponent board.
In my crazy ideas its possible who I cut 2 trygon for to play 2 venser, flash and counter/bouncer is a good control for me.
Now i'm building a black list who I'll play duress (MD) and Executioner's Capsule too.
The 3C Threshold builds run the other basics because it actually doesn't hurt the manabase that much. For example, with UGw, running Windswept Heath over Polluted Delta really doesn't hinder your ability to get whatever color you need (since you can grab either Tundra or Tropical Island just fine).
Also, while many decks will fold under a T1 or T2 Blood Moon, with a manabase with only 2 basic Islands, you're going to get cut from all those cards even if a Moon effect hits you late game. The reason Threshold builds run a few basics is because of the mid-late game Moons/Back to Basics, not because of the early ones.
As GerryT put it, you usually want 2 Tops out to solidify the Counterbalance lock so you can flip one and still counter 2 drops later in the turn. Plus, you can always spin one away to fetchlands in order to get a real card. I love drawing extra Tops much more than I do any other card, especially now that people are starting to fight Tops. 4 Top is 100% a necessity.
P.S., who is interested in a report by Finalist Andrew Probasco? Help me peer pressure him into writing.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
I'm intereted to read his report for looking match-up.
Thx Anusien
I'd be interested as well.
YES SIR!
I'm here to kick ass and play card games.
BZK
pressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressurepressure
I'd love to read it.
Well, he made second place at the Legacy GP with a quite innovative deck. For sure I want to read something.
He's Brassman on TMD, right? Let's spam him.
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
I thing o-ring is good verus cb only otherwise I prefer to play vedalken because I've more control vs opponent's creatures and I can clean his board too.
Vindicate may be a good solution??
If I must play a removal I prefer play vindicate because ring is stiflable and because trgoyn kills ring too and vindicate kills opponent's lands :P
why would you take a well tuned deck and muddle it down with jank.
shackles lets you steal an opponents creature and beat them with it.
shackles lets you steal an opponents creature and chump block with it.
o-ring doesnt serve any of those functions.
Nassif play black for his sideboard only and to make ee at 4.
Probasco play red for firespout and to make ee at 4.
Nassif play white for stp main and for his sideborad and to make ee at 4.
Probasco play black for 3 duress in sb and to make ee at 4.
I builded a list who is a combination.Why?
Because I prefer to play red than black and because firespout is better than duress for me.
I prefer to play stp than duress, but I think this isn't so good, because otherwise vedalken and sower are dead draws.
How does Nassif win against land disruption? It seems like he picks it up to tempo thresh unless the tempo thresh player draws 0 waste/stifle/ice.
I read the report and really think that this deck didnt win, nassif did. It definately isnt bad but 4 ponders seems important as I just cant seen justifying 2.
I love the board its actualy perfect as is although I might alter 1 card for sheer counter top curve that would be the extent of my alterations. The board is balanced and needs no fixing.
Only quarrles with the deck
1) It seems like it loses hard core to landstill and 43 lands.
I dont see a way to keep other matchups good while making these not suck.
2) Seems to be heavily metagamed against the Ux Control mirror, which is a bad idea in real metagames (not ones that are noob warped early).
3) It seems like it loses the URG tempo thresh matchup unless nassif is piloting it or the opponent mulls and doesnt draw key components of the match.
4) dispite 2 basics it still scoops it up to moon.
I do like confidant as draw but it seems really greedy to use this much CA vs going tempish as you have no tempo game I really dont see playing this much CA instead of tempo and some how managing to WIN grinding control matchups.
4 confidant
4 CB
2 Sower
2 Shackles
I c h o r i d - my anti blue
Manaless Ichorid- At least its cheeper than standard.
We admit for the sake of the exercise that following is true:
Landstill > Fromat
Non-Basic Hate > Landstill
Basics > Non-Basic Hate
We can therefore logically conlude that
Basics > Format
Agree.
I'm not entirely sure what this means, but it seems like you're saying Card Advantage won't win you grinding control matchups. Ask any Landstill player, CA is the number one factor in winning grinding control matchups. Sticking a Dark Confidant will win you the game because you'll draw so many cards. Try it, you'll like it.I do like confidant as draw but it seems really greedy to use this much CA vs going tempish as you have no tempo game I really dont see playing this much CA instead of tempo and some how managing to WIN grinding control matchups.
Goblin Lackey, Tarmogoyf, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Tombstalker, Lord of Atlantis, Dark Confidant and Countryside Crusher are just a few examples of men that you'd like to have removal for ASAP. You won't necessarily have the time to set up Vedalken Shackles or Sower of Temptation.
Swords to Plowshares is the best removal in the format. Period. Why would you not want to play it?
Three Brainstorm is a joke. When it came down to putting their money on the line, Andy and Rich both came to their senses and made the correct choice by playing the required four Brainstorm. Ponder only has an advantage when you're looking for a specific card (like a land) because it lets you look at 4 cards compared to Brainstorm's 3. However, in all other situations, Brainstorm is better. Brainstorm turns into Dismiss when you have a Counterbalance out and no Top. Everyone walks into it. Brainstorm turns the midgame hand of lands into spells.
I find it hilarious that you could convince yourself that Ponder is superior. You don't always have Top.
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the swiss army knife,
the most useful member,
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the Ocho.
David Ochoa
The best Magic strategy-store website:
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Because it isn't necessary? Or because I hate exposing dual lands to the decks that have Wasteland. Doing so on turn 3-4 is much better than doing so on turn 1.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
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