[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

[Gibbie_X]

So, how goes the testing of the Sigil?

I should tell you, dropping one on the third turn is something scary. And if you wondering how that happened;

1st turn - Forest Sprawl
2nd turn - Plains Presence
3rd turn - Sanctum Sigil

After that, anything goes, literally. I swung for 20 two turns later. All I thought was, 'That shit is Gangsta!'


Edit: I Also have to giggle at the uproar Natural Order is making with Threshold. I mean, Enchantress has the best answer, at the least expensive cost. I Laugh at them and their puny attempts to control the metagame. Be sure to keep those Progentius nice and shiny, cause all you will be doing with him is watching against me. HA HA HA

[AcidFiend]

Hi,

I'm new to the Source (hiii). Anyways, I've read the entire thread and played Enchantress for a long while. I really *want* this deck to be able to compete, whether it can.. I'm not sure. Either way I love the deck and own it so I figure lets make the best of it

Since a lot of people here probably have more tournament experience than me, I wanted to outline some situations and ask advice what you'd do...

Firstly lets talk City of Solitude.

vs. Dreadstill

Them: Island go
Us: Forest, Utopia Sprawl
Them: Dreadnought & Stifle
Us: Plains, and?

You could play:
-Argothian
-Seal of Primordium
-Elephant Grass
with protection from Daze, or
-Oblivion Ring
-Solitude
and be Dazed. Force is also lurking, but its harder to play around I guess.

My inkling is to go for one of the first options - I don't want to be Dazed and have nothing to show for taking a 'Nought hit.

Let's assume we play Seal, they Force it. They swing. Our third turn:

-Savannah, then? We have 4 mana.

You need to deal with 'Nought, so you play O Ring. It resolves. Maybe you're lucky enough to have Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl as well.

They have their fourth turn, land-go. Our fourth, with 4-5 mana. Is this the time you play Argothian & City? If they both resolve you're in decent shape I suppose.

Thats all assuming we had two answers in hand to deal with 'Nought. Considering Rings aren't even a staple (or present in 2's), and Seal is a singeton, thats fairly unlikely. More probably you had a Sterling Grove, and had to tutor into an answer to 'Nought. If Sterling was countered, you lose.

Note in the above scenario there didn't seem to be space for City of Solitude to give you the breathing space to protect your 'Nought answer. And thats assuming you even have it in your 1st/2nd turns, again running a singleton that would be rare. Tutoring for it would be even slower.

For these reasons I think it should be ditched. While in theory its fantastic, I can't see it practically working that well. Granted, this was only vs Dreadstill, but most blue decks should be packing enough counters to present similar situations. Unless its purely there to act as a 'must-counter' bait.

I understand Replenish acts as a way to get back all those countered Enchantments, but again assuming your facing a 'Nought and two counters, I can't see City of Solitude & Replenish saving you either (note I'm arguing against CoS; Rep is obviously a staple).

I dont know, it seems like Solitude tries to protect you against counters, but those decks are best placed to stop it regardless. I guess against other decks like Tendrils etc, you could grab it via Grove and therefore avoid discard, but most people concede that much is an auto-loss anyways, putting another mark against this cards inclusion.

The only thought I just had was if you only planned on playing it mid-game to break stalemate/get your win conditions into play, in which case it could be mildly useful. But Replenish/Holistic probably do this better in any case.

Just thought I'd generate some more discussion, sorry if people feel this has been discussed enough :)

Edit:

I must have missed Spatula's last post saying City sucks. Ah well, good to know I'm not off base with my hunches lol.

[GreenOne]

I'm with you: City of Solitudes plain sucks. The only thing it's really decent at is against solidarity and to reduce the diminishing returns of Choke, so it's not worth a slot.

[landstill101]

Hi,

I'm new to the Source (hiii). Anyways, I've read the entire thread and played Enchantress for a long while. I really *want* this deck to be able to compete, whether it can.. I'm not sure. Either way I love the deck and own it so I figure lets make the best of it

Since a lot of people here probably have more tournament experience than me, I wanted to outline some situations and ask advice what you'd do...

Firstly lets talk City of Solitude.

vs. Dreadstill

Them: Island go
Us: Forest, Utopia Sprawl
Them: Dreadnought & Stifle
Us: Plains, and?

You could play:
-Argothian
-Seal of Primordium
-Elephant Grass
with protection from Daze, or
-Oblivion Ring
-Solitude
and be Dazed. Force is also lurking, but its harder to play around I guess.

My inkling is to go for one of the first options - I don't want to be Dazed and have nothing to show for taking a 'Nought hit.

Let's assume we play Seal, they Force it. They swing. Our third turn:

-Savannah, then? We have 4 mana.

You need to deal with 'Nought, so you play O Ring. It resolves. Maybe you're lucky enough to have Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl as well.

They have their fourth turn, land-go. Our fourth, with 4-5 mana. Is this the time you play Argothian & City? If they both resolve you're in decent shape I suppose.

Thats all assuming we had two answers in hand to deal with 'Nought. Considering Rings aren't even a staple (or present in 2's), and Seal is a singeton, thats fairly unlikely. More probably you had a Sterling Grove, and had to tutor into an answer to 'Nought. If Sterling was countered, you lose.

Note in the above scenario there didn't seem to be space for City of Solitude to give you the breathing space to protect your 'Nought answer. And thats assuming you even have it in your 1st/2nd turns, again running a singleton that would be rare. Tutoring for it would be even slower.

For these reasons I think it should be ditched. While in theory its fantastic, I can't see it practically working that well. Granted, this was only vs Dreadstill, but most blue decks should be packing enough counters to present similar situations. Unless its purely there to act as a 'must-counter' bait.

I understand Replenish acts as a way to get back all those countered Enchantments, but again assuming your facing a 'Nought and two counters, I can't see City of Solitude & Replenish saving you either (note I'm arguing against CoS; Rep is obviously a staple).

I dont know, it seems like Solitude tries to protect you against counters, but those decks are best placed to stop it regardless. I guess against other decks like Tendrils etc, you could grab it via Grove and therefore avoid discard, but most people concede that much is an auto-loss anyways, putting another mark against this cards inclusion.

The only thought I just had was if you only planned on playing it mid-game to break stalemate/get your win conditions into play, in which case it could be mildly useful. But Replenish/Holistic probably do this better in any case.

Just thought I'd generate some more discussion, sorry if people feel this has been discussed enough :)

Edit:

I must have missed Spatula's last post saying City sucks. Ah well, good to know I'm not off base with my hunches lol.

Well I run runed halo which really helps in this matchup, and if you are playing in a big tournament like the gp, many dreadstill players won't go instant turn 2 dreadnought unless they have back up becuase they do not know the deck they are playing against which usually gives you a turn or 2 to get things down like runed halo, moat, etc. plus when you get to sideboard, you just bring in more artifact hate and win. The actual chances of them going turn 2 nought are about 1 in every 10 games. This matchup for me atleast is pretty good.

Edit: City of solitude sucks monkey balls. Doesnt matter where its at, in the main or side, it just sucks.(although it is helpful sometimes against rashidan port and counterbalance. But that is about it.)

[Gibbie_X]

I really *want* this deck to be able to compete, whether it can.. I'm not sure.

Firstly lets talk City of Solitude.

Am I wrong in thinking Enchantress is viable? I can't be the only one. With Threshold dropping 10/10 unkillable fatties while countering bullshit, I'm not worried in the least about how well I'll do at Chicago. This tune may or may not change come Monday.

I changed my tune about City of Solitude though. I thought it was worth half a damn, but I've found better disruption for certain decks. City does set you up to get screwed. I just bought 2 too and now I'm wondering if I even need them in the sideboard. Choke works better against the blue decks, including Solidarity.

And the scenario, Runed Halo works, Spell Snare-able, but Daze resistant. Personally, I'd go for Ring first.

[Redlotus27]

To me, City takes any blue deck and says "enjoy your 12+ dead cards!" Anything that reads "counter target spell" is now blank until the city is dealt with. No Top on your turn, no brainstorm EOT.

Against dreadstill, it is correct to assume that the naught isn't coming down turn 2 "all in" unless it can be covered for 2 swings. In the example given, assume your first answer gets countered (the city). If its countered with a daze, yep you probably just lost to a god hand. If its countered with Force, the next answer usually will resolve because you can play around daze. If the City is not countered, answer #2 is sticking no matter what.

Answer #2 is a REAL answer like Moat or Halo shuttting off basically the only way that they can beat you before you take over the game. Even temporary answers like Seal/Ring give you a chance to recover while dreadstill tries to reassemble the combo with backup.

@Gibbie-- playing Enchantress at the GP? Enchantress is my plan "A"...

I currently have one city main and 1 side, 2 Halo's main. Final testing happens Friday night where this could change.

[AcidFiend]

Just a question around Sylvan Library, is there any tricky rules to know about? Or with a Words out, is it as simple as saying put SL's 'draw 2' on the stack, activate Words for 4. I used to run Mirri's Guilde but being able to grab that extra card(s) allowing you to go off is wicked!

[Gibbie_X]

@Redlotus Enchantress all the WAY!!!!

I've removed the City, because of the decks you need to worry about, the counterspells are in the form of an enchantment, which City has no effect. Stop the Top no big deal, but you still have the Balance to fight around, and the best way to do that is to Replenish. If they do have Counterbalance, they will be running at max 8 counters. Some will throw Spell Snare in there main, which is a pain in the ass.

I face ANT and TES with almost no hope, the the rest I fear not. I have Blood Moon main now, it slaps around most decks in the format, something City doesn't do.

@Acidfiend Sylvan says 'pay 4 or return card to top.' You would pay the 4 life per card if you replaced the drawing. This may not be worded properly, but I know I am understanding it correctly. My advice straight up, don't do it. Besides, when you have the Words out, you should have the Solitary Confinement out anyways, which negates Library.

But I will tell you now, it's not going to be Words or Mesa that will make Enchantress shine. You who have played it, and you who have lost to it knows what it is. You can not utter it's name more than twice, Because if you do, then it will spill forth from the mirrored universe and rip thy soul asunder. That's why no one has mentioned it after I asked. Well it is too late! Few truly know what is coming. The rest, QUIVER!!!

Asha. Asha! ASHA!!!!!

You will hear the chant, and when you do, chant back...

Bant. Bant! BANT!!!!!!

or not, what ever.

[AcidFiend]

@Acidfiend Sylvan says 'pay 4 or return card to top.' You would pay the 4 life per card if you replaced the drawing. This may not be worded properly, but I know I am understanding it correctly. My advice straight up, don't do it.

I know Solitary negates Sylvan, but in theory an interaction between Sylvan and Words would be:

Draw Step:
-Trigger Sylvan, look at top two cards
-Decide whether to keep or not (paying 4 life if yes, 0 if put it back)
-For any card you 'kept' you could activate Words, putting it back and dealing 2 damage

Is that how it goes?

If so its not the mad 'double Words activate without loss' every turn I hoped it was :(

<Mad ravings of a madman here>

I think someone has been kept in Solitary too long :p

[honz]

Am I wrong in thinking Enchantress is viable? I can't be the only one. With Threshold dropping 10/10 unkillable fatties while countering bullshit, I'm not worried in the least about how well I'll do at Chicago.

I would say that enchantress is a very fun deck that has solid match-ups against blue-based decks. "Viable" is very dependant on the meta and your ability to luck-sack. Against decks that tend to depend on controlling the board, you will probably win against. Against decks that tend to actively attack your hand/lands/face, you will probably loose against. That has been my take on the deck.

Every deck that would counter/destroy city, would counter/destroy choke. Not every deck that would counter/destroy choke would counter/destroy city. Ergo, choke > city.

[Zlatzman]

See this thread for Words of War + Sylvan Library interaction: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=4933

Basically the ruling is that you can activate Words of War three times during your upkeep to deal six damage without having to pay any life. If you choose to draw any cards (even the one you usually get to draw) Sylvan Library makes you put that card back.

From the rules information on gatherer.wizards.com:

16.09.2007 If you choose to draw two cards, then replace one or more of those draws with some other effect, the rest of Sylvan Library's ability still happens. If you've actually drawn only one card that turn, you must choose that card and either pay 4 life or put it on top of your library. If you haven't actually drawn any cards that turn, the rest of the ability has no effect.

[AcidFiend]

Rules

Wow Zlatzman, thanks for that. It didn't sit right with me that you had to pay 4 life to activate a Words, now I know if I pay for 3 activations I don't

[Illuvator Brightstar]

See this thread for Words of War + Sylvan Library interaction: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=4933

Basically the ruling is that you can activate Words of War three times during your upkeep to deal six damage without having to pay any life. If you choose to draw any cards (even the one you usually get to draw) Sylvan Library makes you put that card back.

From the rules information on gatherer.wizards.com:

Pretty sure this is correct, referencing the way abundance/library works with replacement effects.

[Gibbie_X]

I went 6-3-0,
1st - Goblins - 1-0-0 ; This was what I wanted, an ego booster. He stalled at 3 lands second game or he would of had game 2.
2nd - It's the Demi-Fear 1-1-0 ; I punted here due to me registering my deck incorrectly and a misplay with ground seal.
3rd - Mirror - 2-1-0 ; Didn't expect to hit this. He let his Confinement die first game, name Words of War on a Runed Halo. Second game I drop Dovescape when he had no protection at all.
4th - Dredge - 3-1-0 ; I got to kill him here with PandaSigil.
5th - Dredge - 4-1-0 ; I was sure I lost here, but apparently it's not as fast as I thought, they didn't play well, or Elephant Grass is God...
6th - Progentius Blue - 5-1-0 ; I call it this because the only relevant creature he played was Progentius with CounterTop and Wall of Roots. Second game I was sure I misplayed here when I dropped Dovescape, but he conceded, so maybe not. Sigil would have been better, or Pandemonium out the Dovescape.
7th - Imperial Painter 5-2-0 ; Knew the deck, knew the mechanics, knew what I had to do, but wasn't winning.
8th - Ad Naseum - 5-3-0 ; Won second game some how, with Blood Moon and Confinement. He blew up in my face first turn third game. WTF am I suppose to do against that, and what's this bullshit about Ad Nausem being an instant. Who the fuck am I going to have to beat in Wizards R&D???!!!
9th - Sligh - 6-3-0 ; Since it wasn't Bunrinator, I had a better chance.

Over all, I was satisfied with my deck choice and build. Sigil was the nuts, but Elephant Grass was the M to the V to the mother fucking P, ruling the day. It was kind of weird, but I didn't have to actually kill most people, they just scooped. I am pissed at myself for not registering properly. I never double checked, just sleeved and went. I think that may have cost me the entire thing. I ended 228, brutal...

[Illuvator Brightstar]

I went 6-3-0,
1st - Goblins - 1-0-0 ; This was what I wanted, an ego booster. He stalled at 3 lands second game or he would of had game 2.
2nd - It's the Demi-Fear 1-1-0 ; I punted here due to me registering my deck incorrectly and a misplay with ground seal.
3rd - Mirror - 2-1-0 ; Didn't expect to hit this. He let his Confinement die first game, name Words of War on a Runed Halo. Second game I drop Dovescape when he had no protection at all.
4th - Dredge - 3-1-0 ; I got to kill him here with PandaSigil.
5th - Dredge - 4-1-0 ; I was sure I lost here, but apparently it's not as fast as I thought, they didn't play well, or Elephant Grass is God...
6th - Progentius Blue - 5-1-0 ; I call it this because the only relevant creature he played was Progentius with CounterTop and Wall of Roots. Second game I was sure I misplayed here when I dropped Dovescape, but he conceded, so maybe not. Sigil would have been better, or Pandemonium out the Dovescape.
7th - Imperial Painter 5-2-0 ; Knew the deck, knew the mechanics, knew what I had to do, but wasn't winning.
8th - Ad Naseum - 5-3-0 ; Won second game some how, with Blood Moon and Confinement. He blew up in my face first turn third game. WTF am I suppose to do against that, and what's this bullshit about Ad Nausem being an instant. Who the fuck am I going to have to beat in Wizards R&D???!!!
9th - Sligh - 6-3-0 ; Since it wasn't Bunrinator, I had a better chance.

Over all, I was satisfied with my deck choice and build. Sigil was the nuts, but Elephant Grass was the M to the V to the mother fucking P, ruling the day. It was kind of weird, but I didn't have to actually kill most people, they just scooped. I am pissed at myself for not registering properly. I never double checked, just sleeved and went. I think that may have cost me the entire thing. I ended 228, brutal...

Mind my asking for your decklist here? Been kinda lurking the thread for awile as my area doesn't play a whole lot of legacy, but with my store starting up fairly soon, I've been planning to put Enchantress together :)

[Gibbie_X]

Mind my asking for your decklist here? Been kinda lurking the thread for awile as my area doesn't play a whole lot of legacy, but with my store starting up fairly soon, I've been planning to put Enchantress together :)

No problem, this is for you too RedLotus.

Land 19
8 Forest
3 Plains
4 windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Taiga (I really had mix feelings here. You need it for Blood Moon, but if you have Blood Moon, you don't need it.)
1 Serra's Sanctum

Creatures 4
4 Argothian Enchantress

The Penultimate 2
2 Replenish

Enchantments 35
Mana Exceleration
4 Utopia Sprawls
2 Wild Growth
2 Exploration
Necessary 4 of
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Elephant Grass (Progentius what?)
Alternate Card Draw
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Sylvan Library (True, the Library actually draws you cards, but stacking your draw with Guile is so good, and I call it alternate because if you don't have the Enchantress but one of those, you will get an Enchantress a hell of a lot faster.)
Protection
3 Solitary Confinement (I choose 1 Confinement for 1 Moat simply because I didn't have the Moat and wasn't going to get one.)
1 Runed Halo (Dreadnought who?)
Kill(When they didn't concede)
1 Pandemonium
1 Saproling Burst
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
Random Goodness
1 Karmic Justice (Evens score with Deed and EE, though I saw neither.)
1 Blood Moon (A real monkey wrench against some decks.)
1 Ground Seal (Main deck protection for you replenish, draws a card, and stops Dredge cold too?)
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence (This is the mirror stopper. Also what cost me day 2. CHECK YOUR LIST TWICE DAMMIT!!!)

I was waiting to post this final version of Bloody Panda Stakes until after GP Chicago. I wanted to catch everyone by surprise, and I did. I'm a bastard like that, brewing tech in my basement.

[waSP]

How is your Merfolk matchup with that build?

[Illuvator Brightstar]

I'm having a hard time understanding the pandemonium, as it seems to only be good when you already have sigil on board (in which case you should be winning) or when you have confinement out AND they play creatures (which they should just avoid)?

Also, the saproling burst... it seems like it's only a real win condition if you a.) have pandemonium and b.) they don't have blockers? Maybe I'm missing the point on this one too?

Also I noticed, no sanctums? Was this conscious or just an availiability thing like the moat?

Thanks :)

[Gibbie_X]

How is your Merfolk matchup with that build?

Varied. If I got behind Grass early enough, I could survive.

I'm having a hard time understanding the pandemonium, as it seems to only be good when you already have sigil on board (in which case you should be winning) or when you have confinement out AND they play creatures (which they should just avoid)?

Also, the saproling burst... it seems like it's only a real win condition if you a.) have pandemonium and b.) they don't have blockers? Maybe I'm missing the point on this one too?

Also I noticed, no sanctums? Was this conscious or just an availiability thing like the moat?

Thanks :)

No, just forgot, it made the deck work better, but I only needed one.

First off, you can choose to target at all, so they can keep playing critters and not do damage, which is a good idea for them. They need to be able to kill me if I misplay.

Second, you do know what Saproling Burst does right? Remove a counter, make a Saproling equal to total counters on Burst. Start with 7 counters. Remove one, make a 6/6, remove one, make a 5/5, etc. 21 damage

The original purpose was when Replenish was first taken off the banned list, what could hit and kill in one turn. PandaBurst was the only one I could think of, so I went with that. I would get behind the Solitary Confinement, wait to discard my pieces, Replenish and kill. When Sigil was added, the dynamic of the deck changed. Unlike Mesa and Hoofprints, which required mana and counters, Sigil made flying beat sticks for practically free. I would even get to draw too. I would drop Sigil, make maybe 3 tokens, smash, then get Pandemonium. It's a trickery deck to pilot, you have to know when to get Pandemonium, or if you even have too. But Pandemonium allowed me to kill by dropping Sigil same turn. So I wouldn't even have to attack. I had a game once when I bashed for the win with Burst. You have to make 3 on their turn, then swing for 9, then 6, then 3. Not enough to kill, but not bad.

P.S. Forgot Sideboard in original post.

Essential Core - My own opinion, but I think you can agree.
2 Choke (I hate blUe)
2 Sacred Ground
1 Rule of Law
1 Replenish
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Oblivion Ring
My own goodies
1 Spiritual Focus (IGG and discard)
1 Energy Storm (Good against Fairies)
1 Sphere of Law (Burn is a bit of a pain if you don't find Confinement fast enough. I thought about Harsh Judgment, but burn drops you too fast, and does not care about life total, as long as it is above 0.)
1 Dovescape (Turned out to be a good choice.)
1 Ground Seal
1 Suppression Field (Don't run this if you kill via Words/Mesa.)

[GreenOne]

1 Sphere of Law (Burn is a bit of a pain if you don't find Confinement fast enough. I thought about Harsh Judgment, but burn drops you too fast, and does not care about life total, as long as it is above 0.)

Warmth seems better than Sphere of law against burn.